xhonzi

He beat me to it too, but you don't see me posting about it.

fishmanlee said:

 

 that top photo looks stupid the mouth and the eyes makes it look like it wants to cry

 He just wants a hug!

Yes, no farmer robes.

I don't remember Yoda saying anything about a council, but maybe I'm FORCING it out of my mind.

I just realized I must not know what "victim" means.  I totally read that part of the post wrong.

It was always my interpretation, not that any of this came from anything official I don't think, that Vader, as "Dark Lord of the Sith" with a "sad devotion to that ancient religion" still had some code of ethics that he lived by.  Can't say exactly what that was...  But the Emperor sort of just used/abused whatever power he could.  That he had no formal Jedi training, and that he had no specific Sith religion either.  That he was a "wilder", to borrow a phrase from the Wheel of Time.  He had Force sensitivity and he taught himself or learned from others without following them all of the tricks he needed to get along.  And maybe that the Emperor in that way kooked Vader out a little.  I'm thinking of the Sheriff of Nottingham and the Witch in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.  He's using her to his own means, but he actually finds her and her witchcraft somewhat repulsive due to this mostly traditional mindset.

So I was a little put off when the PT showed him as the head of the Sith order, with his own "Darth" title as well.

And speaking of things that would have been brought up in the OT had they actually existed in the PT... "Darth Sidious", anyone?

How about "Person with Morally Challenged Force Use"?

You have the death sentence on 12 systems!

Whoah.

Wookieeeepeeeedia says:

The site is also notorious for its handful of extremely vulgar and disrespectful members, who enjoy tormenting sensitive people and people who disagree with them and running them off the site, and its corrupt moderator, Moth3r, who abuses his power and encourages all the offensive behavior on the site. Such victims of these actions are Warbler, Adamwankenobi, ZigFried, and many others.

Wait, when did AWK become something other than a ridiculous troll who loved the Holiday Special above all else?  I know I took a couple years off, but I don't recall him ever being insensitive or as corrupt as Moth3r...

Whatever Tee-Vee's Frink.

And someone let me know if Bkev ever says anything cool... I now have him on IGNORE!

Seriously, Bkev... leave Ric alone.  I'm telling you for the last time.

I see your two E's and raise you... wait, what are we talking about?

TheBoost said:

 

• The general public is probably unaware of the Emperor's status as an evil Force-Person.

Lolz.  Very PC of you, Boost.

TheBoost said:

 

• The Empire is blatantly anti-Force

Sort of like the Nazi's being anti-Jewish except for the odd half Jewish Fuhrer?  Or could you mean, "Anti-Jedi"?

I agree- I don't think the Emperor's use of the Force was well known.

I'm pretty sure it was Courtship of P.L.  That was a relatively early book.  After that it was Young Jedi Knight series, and after that I don't know.

Was the Dam Busters clip re-edited as well?  I mean, it would have to be to match up to the audio so well...

Hmmm.....

How long would it take for these attitudes to develop, do you think?  Or do you think there were never 10,000 Jedi?

Really?  I thought Bossk's were the best.

Bingowings said:

In fact Belisarius would make a great template for a Last Days of the Republic Jedi :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belisarius

 Bingo- maybe you need to draw the comparisons for me.  I skimmed over the wiki page and nothing jumped out at me.  I'm not a Byzantium scholar, so a lot of it is just Greek to me.  (see what I did there?)

vaderios said:

xhonzi said:

 Hi-rez please?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0796366/ in HD

 

-Angel

 KAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

I think you won.

TheBoost said:

 

 If this was the case, during all of ANH and most of ESB the audience would be thinking "That sure was ambiguous. I wonder if it's Anakin or the other guy." When Vader says "No, I am your father." the reaction wouldn't be shock or surpirse but more likely "Yeah... that makes sense."

 This is the problem.  If you go down the "keep the surprize" path... then you can't suspect Anakin is Vader at any point until ESB.  Surprizes don't work when you say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE it's B!"  They sometimes work when you either say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE it's C!"  They work better when you say "It might be A or it might be B... SURPRIZE, it's a ham sandwich!"  Or when you just say... "Surprize!" without any of the lead up.

The Usual Suspects (SPOILER ALERT!) asked the question, "Is or isn't Keaton really Kyser Soze?"  All of your attention was focused there, so you didn't even see it coming from the other direction.  Successful misdirection is not when you make the audience guess what hand it's in, it's when you have them convinced that they know which hand it's in, not even stopping to think that it could be anywhere else, and of course they are wrong.

TheBoost said:

...then they would likely think "What? That doesn't make sense! We need a second PT to explain this."

 Or a third?

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

I think the delted scene about the lost 24 seems to back you up here.  Personally, I don't buy it.  How could there not be Dark Jedi?  How could there not be Dark Jedi in almost equal number to Light Jedi?  It's the line that all Jedi must walk, right?  Does the Force only speak to the pure in heart?  If so, then there is no threat of Luke becoming Vader II (or III or IV or LXI) and you need some kind of convoluted reason for why Anakin fell.

If the Jedi can just as easily be bad as good, then it makes them a big X-factor for the normal citizens of the galaxy and it just might be easier if they all went away and the proverbial baby was thrown out with the proverbial bath water.

But that's what's in the OT. Vader being seduced by the dark side was a big deal, so it must be uncommon.

I think we might have to agree to disagree here.  I think Anakin is a big deal for personal reasons, not statistical ones.  His fall is a big deal because we knew and loved him.  And because he had so much potential to be a great Jedi.  If your brother went to jail, you would feel a lot differently than seeing a ton of people you don't know in jail.  Or if your no-good cousin went to jail (like mine did) that would be a lot different than your favourite cousin that you trust implicitly going to jail.  It's a personal tragedy, not a galactic one.

Or, perhaps. Anakin is such a strong force user that his turn to the Dark Side has galactic consequences whereas Bob the Jedi falling to the Dark Side- not so much.

Perhaps the Force does only speak to the pure of heart. It seems likely. Being "Strong in the Force" isn't just a random mutation, but perhaps a special calling.

Yeah, it's hard to say.  The mystical part of it suggests that it comes to the pure in heart... but the corruptibility is there not only for Anakin, but for Luke as well.  So... of the 5 force users we see in the OT, 2 are bad and 1 is in danger of becoming bad as he develops his skills and strives to do the right thing.  The 2 that are good are hermits or are so passive that they decide suicide in front of their pupil is the only way to win a lightsabre fight.

In other words, ANH seems to say that Luke can use the force because he is pure in heart.  But ESB seems to say that he can blow it by being too human, too reckless, and too much like his father.  RoTJ seems to say that if you stay the course, not only is it possible to remain pure, but to triumph over pure evil and to redeem the fallen.

What do we know about the jedi from the OT?

• Guardians of Peace and Justice for a hecka long time.
• Betrayed and Murdered by Darth Vader.
• They begin training younger than their early 20s, apparently by Yoda or perhaps other Masters.
• Anakin fell because he was angry and impatient. It is possible he was trained poorly and began too old.

 

If the Jedi can just as easily be good or bad, then they aren't Guardians of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy. They're just a bunch of people with superpowers.

 I guess that brings back the discussion of "Dark Jedi/Sith."  Taking what you say above, I can say, "Yes.  The Jedi were all good and none were servants of the Dark Side.  Likewise, the Sith were all bad and none were Guardians of Peace and Justice."  I'll repeat that I'm not terribly interested in using the term Sith as an all purpose "Dark Jedi."  Maybe "Fallen Jedi" is more of use since it describes them as a sub-set of the Jedi that generic statements like "The Jedi were..." may not apply to.

Good discussion.

TheBoost said:

xhonzi said:

 

 Let me see if I can clear my end of this confusion up.

I'm proposing at the end of Episode 3 that Anakin is not Vader yet.  That Episode 3 ends with his death- therefore before his rebirth as Vader.  So- Obi-Wan does not know that Anakin is Vader because it hasn't even happened yet.  Somepoint in time before A New Hope, he figures this out.  However, he starts the lie right away that someone else killed Anakin to protect the good memory of Anakin.  If people know someone good (Obi-Wan) killed Anakin, that reveals that Anakin was bad.  If Obi-Wan says someone bad killed Anakin (Vader or Notvader (Frink's Dad)) then that perpetuates the myth that Anakin died a good Jedi.

Any better?

 So we never see Vader in this scenario? Hmmm... could work, although we Obi-Wan still has to know Anakin=Vader.

"We last we met I was but a learner now-"

"What? We've never met!"

 I think you just have to assume that they met "in the gap" as I like to call it.  That is, if you don't show a non Anakin Vader in the PT.  Anakin becoming Vader is also in the gap in this scenario.

I also assume there is a 20 year gap with things happening.  Maybe that's an assumption we need to talk about.