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vote_for_palpatine

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Post
#338929
Topic
When did the prequels officially suck?
Time

"overweight glob of grease"

"nearsighted  scrap pile"

"nerf-herder"

"don't send one of your twerps"

"walking carpet"

"old fossil"

"hunk of junk"

"sorceror's ways"

"hokey religions"

"fuzzball"

"flea-bitten furball"

"laser brain"

"bantha fodder"

 

give me a break... they're all just as bad if not worse..

Your shoulder must really be aching from such a long reach. All of you PT apologists try this at one time or another. You equate weak snippets of dialogue from the OT (and I would dispute the so-called weakness of those lines you quoted) and say, "See? The OT had bad dialogue too!"

Even if that's true, let's talk degrees. Bob and Ray are both short men. Bob is 5'1", Ray is 2'7". Just because Bob is also short doesn't mean he is nearly as short as Ray.

I'm wasting my time because I don't even think you believe most of this crap you throw up here. Just another Lucas-loving PT apologist. But hey, I've got time to waste too.

Post
#338928
Topic
The Prequels: Missed Opportunity #7102636892 by George Lucas
Time
Gaffer Tape said:

While that's a cool idea, I only see one problem:  how would you convey that in dialogue without destroying the pacing of the movie or sounding unnecessarily expository?

Obi-Wan:  Let her go!

Vader:  No!  As this unborn child might overthrow me as is the case with all Sith based on my five minute introduction into Sith culture proves, I must kill her so the child usurper will die as well.

Obi-Wan:  You sick monster!  Let's fight!

Vader:  Hold on just a few more seconds.  She still has a little bit of oxygen left.

^_~

 

 Would your suggestion real have sounded out of place in the PT? ;)

Post
#338616
Topic
The Prequels: Missed Opportunity #7102636892 by George Lucas
Time

We have all lamented the ideas Lucas could have, and did not, make use of in the Prequels. I have recently thought of another one.

In ROTS, Padme and Anakin have a long discussion before Anakin starts choking Padme. Obi-Wan tells him to let her go…and he does?? This newly-minted Sith Lord just submits to a hated Jedi?

Here’s what I’m getting at: Palpatine had already told Anakin about how Darth Plageuis’ apprentice (apparently Palpatine) had killed him - so, instead of Anakin standing down when Obi-Wan yells at him, he continues to choke her because in this improved version of the scene, Anakin reasons that his unborn child will overthrow him as was had done to Plageius. Now he can choke the life out of Padme for betraying him and take out this unborn threat at the same time. And instead of a long stupid speech kicking off the Obi/Ani duel, it starts quicker because Obi is acting in defense of Padme. In the ensuing confusion, Padme suffers head trauma which ends up killing her in the end, not some mysterious “loss of will” to live.

This theme of infanticide by the powerful, paranoid father has been used before in classical mythology. See, this way Lucas would have added more gravitas to his Joseph Campbell formula, and the story at the end of ROTS would have been stronger. It’s win-win!

Post
#338295
Topic
When did the prequels officially suck?
Time

For Episodes I and II, I was in complete denial.

I went with IIRC six people to Ep. I. My best friend and I were the two biggest SW dorks there (which was saying something indeed) and we felt triumphant about the movie when it was over. Then the old guy in the group just started picking the movie apart, and I was annoyed with not only his buzzkilling ways, but with his accuracy. Basically, I wanted Ep. I to be good, so my blinders were on the whole time.

Needless to say, the movie did not hold up.

Ep. II had me feeling great because of where it improved above Ep. I. But again, I wanted it to be good, and I looked past all the obvious flaws.

I went into Ep. III in a much more grounded state, and I caught a lot of the problems with that particular film on my first viewing. Although the prequels de facto sucked from day one, for me the suckage was de jure after watching Ep. III.

Post
#338210
Topic
You know what's better than Star Wars?
Time

It's an amazing experience to review McQuarrie's concept art...it's like, for a while, you can forget all about Jar Jar and Ewoks and UNNNNNLIMITED POWWWWWERRR! and poodoo and Elan Sleazebagganno and General Grievous and unconvincing acting against bluescreens and shrieking lizards and gigantic grazing ticks and awkward "love stories" and establishing shot theater and Darth Emo and fan rifts and Dexter Jettser and countless lightsabres ruining the unique surprise value of the weapon and the Flying Jedi Brothers and suppression of classic films and confusing space battles and gratuitous fight scenes and every other scene in CGI and Rick McCallum; instead, you look at McQuarrie's art and it's as though it's about 35 years ago and you're in the young George Lucas' inner circle, getting your first glimpse "into a larger world".

Post
#336302
Topic
Bored at work yesterday... the Original Trilogy phonetic alphabet
Time

…and the phonetic alphabet came up in conversation. And it had the effect on me to try and come up with a phonetic alphabet based in Star Wars. So I did.

I tried like hell to keep it OT, but two entries were not:

a - Ackbar

b - Bespin

c - Chewie

d - Death Star

e - Ewok

f - Falcon

g - Greedo

h - Han

i - Imperial

j - Jawa

k - Kessel

l - Luke

m - Mynock

n - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

o - Obi-Wan

p - Porkins

q - Qui-Gon

r - Artoo

s - Sarlaac

t - Threepio

u - Ugnaught

v - Vader

w - Wedge

x - X-Wing

y - Yoda

z - Zuckuss

Just a little of nothing. 😃

Post
#333862
Topic
We should sue George Lucas.
Time

I don't know what to make of the OP.

My first thought was that he's some sort of plant to make the pro-OUT camp look bad. But of course, this wouldn't be the place to do it - it would have much more destructive impact at TF.n or some such. Unless this is a form of seeding where he later goes on to TF.n and pulls the same act, claiming he's also a poster at OT.com, thus giving him greater credibility with the idiots there.

Socks, plants, rival camps of fans, suppressing cinematic history - my God, GL is totally insane.

Post
#331947
Topic
A New Trope?
Time

I'd like to propose a new verb in reference to GL's Bizarro-Midas touch he has exhibited in the last 10-15 years.

george (v.) - to foul up a creative work, usually but not limited to film, in a way which preserves (in some cases enhances) the superficial points of resemblance but makes a complete hash of all of the established characters and/or plot.

Example: If you ask me, "Rocky V" completely georged the Rocky franchise.

Who's with me? Let's get george into the lexicon! Most will use it and have no idea of its origin, whereas those of us in the know can share a knowing smile whe we hear it.

Post
#329490
Topic
Feb. 2008 - In Defense of the Phantom Menace
Time

 

The full post is here. I'm going to respond to select parts here in order to keep the wall of text down to a reasonable size.

In the wake of the film’s release, “George Lucas raped my childhood” became the rallying cry of overzealous, melodramatic fanboys and manboys of questionable wit.

It's true that this line was uttered countless times after TPM, but from my experience, the the spirit in which those utterances were made breaks down like this:

5% - completely genuinely by idiots

25% - tongue in cheek/sarcastically by people exaggerating to make a point

70% - quoting the above 30% in the process of taking it seriously...which no rational person should ever do.

Basically, whenever you see the phrase "Lucas raped my childhood", it's a ginormous red flag which means "Don't take me seriously". And yet, Ali Arikan is using it in the second paragraph of a long, vigorous defense of the TPM. I have long felt that PT/Lucas defenders lack a sense of irony, and here's another example.

Twelve films, [Lucas] said, had been his original intention. By the time the twelve had inexplicably became nine, Lucas had perfected the spiel, the variations on which still form the backbone of everything Star Wars: that he had started with the middle trilogy since it was the one with the most amount of commercial appeal, and that the original story he had meticulously conceived of had been grander and far more intricate. This brief history of Star Wars time which I have just recounted, and which everyone and which everyone knows by heart, is actually horseshit. There exists absolutely no proof to suggest that particular course of events in the films’ development cycle – in fact, that account of the prequels’ conception is now so commonplace that no one dares question it. This revisionism is of the essence to all Star Wars films. And it must be clarified further before delving deeper into The Phantom Menace.

I do appreciate Arikan's admission here that Lucas has been dishonest about his plans for Star Wars. I do think it's funny that he says "no one dare question" Lucas' revisionism; I guess he's spent a lot of time at TF.N - over there, it's almost literally true that no one dare question GL.

Before I get back to The Phantom Menace more specifically, I’d like to address the effects of nostalgia on the entire series. Well, one effect, really: it’s made everyone think the original trilogy was fucking great until the Ewoks showed up. Horses for courses, and I am a huge fan of the series (or why would I bother with this interminable diatribe in the first place), but all three original films leave a lot, LOT to be desired. They all have scenes that seem to go on forever: the trench-run in the first film, the Endor chase and the subsequent battle in Jedi, and, yes, the entire Dagobah sequence in Empire, fully devoid of verve, with its plodding pseudo-mysticism. There are many more shortcomings to all three films, and this is not the place to get into them. The fact remains, however, they are still, even with all their flaws, great films. It’s just that their apotheosis through nostalgia has resulted in an overestimation of their quality, which, in turn, has had an adverse effect on The Phantom Menace.

My personal favorite, the equivalency fallacy: "The OT had (pick one) bad acting/silly kid moments/plot holes/pacing problems/bad dialogue too, you know!"

It's a heroic attempt, and Arikan writes skillfully (for now). Arikan's first step is to frame the debate by demonstrating Lucas' revisionism, thus avoiding the "Lucas does no wrong" worldview so many PT gushers have. Good start. Next, Arikan tries to cash in that credibility by saying the OT is good but overrated from the nostalgia effect.

First of all, he's doing an awful lot of generalizing here:

everyone th[ought] the original trilogy was fucking great until the Ewoks showed up.

"Everyone"? This is what you're clinging to? My anecdotal evidence quite contradicts this. I know of fans who don't like Jedi as a whole. I know of fans who don't like any SW except for the original. I know of fans who prefer the PT to the OT. Now, my anecdotal evidence is shit - but I could at least furnish some proof of this from various SW forums. But Arikan just puts "everyone" out there and I'm supposed to just let that go by. Problem is, it's one of the legs of his argument - and it's quite unconvincing.

Second of all, if he's going to critique suspect moments in the OT, he really ought to use more convincing examples than these:

They all have scenes that seem to go on forever: the trench-run in the first film

Oh - the very scene the movie has spent two hours building toward. This is an interminable scene. Right. So what was the high point of Star Wars for you? Threepio's oil bath?

 the Endor chase and the subsequent battle in Jedi

 I assume you mean the "speeder bike" chase and the "space" battle. (There were several battles and chases going on in Jedi - be specific) I'll admit that the space battle wasn't as good as the one in Star Wars, and the speeder bike sequences are just okay.

and, yes, the entire Dagobah sequence in Empire, fully devoid of verve, with its plodding pseudo-mysticism.

I'll admit that there's a little too much screen time used on Luke's training, but the substance is undeniable. Obviously you're not a fan of the Force as protrayed in the OT. 

The interminable moments you cite, apparently the first ones that come to your mind - when you could have cited "many more shortcomings to [sic] all three films" - are certainly interesting. Your choices come off as contrarian to me, but you're not going there, right?

Yes, I fucking love it. And most of the reasons why are exactly those that make people hate the film. Considered on its own terms, as a summer blockbuster sequel, it’s just about perfect. I love that there is absolutely NOTHING dark about the film whatsoever. Anakin leaves his mother behind, probably never to see her again, and yet two scenes later, he is all “bitch, I know how to fly a spaceship – I own lightspeed, and wacky maneuvering, and shit.” Jar Jar steps on crap twice, gets farted on twice, gets his mouth zapped only for his tongue to dangle like a flaccid phallus for five minutes afterwards, and manages to singlehandedly bring down an entire squadron of battle hardened droids by jumping on one’s chest.

Oh. I see. (Emphases mine)

the Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, Master Qui-Gon and his bitch Obi Wan, to see what the hell is going on. This idea of “Jedi as peacemakers” is inspired.

Yeah. What inspired that particular idea, anyway?

BTW - hilarious use of "bitch". I'm falling head over heels for your argument.

The way the story develops afterwards is radically different from the original three films, which all have one single plotline each that dominates them.

Maybe Arikan watched an edit of ESB that started on Dagobah and never left. The final scene in said edit was the duel in the cave.

We meet Anakin’s mum, Shmi (which, incidentally, is the name of my cat),

In an astonishing coincidence, I don't care.

[Anakin] might be The Chosen One, which, again, is an original concept for Star Wars, though it’s talked about so much that a lot of people now assume that it used to govern the original films, too, in which a saviour storyline could be described as subtextual at best.

1) This is a clumsy run-on sentence.

2) "That boy is our last hope" doesn't strike me as subtextual.

“Overthrowing the Empire” does not domineer the characters’ particular “plights of fancy” in the original films, where the actions are governed by momentary twists of fate.

1) Was "plights of fancy" an attempt at punnery? Because the phrase is "flights of fantasy".

2) The word you want is "dominate". "Domineer" is a synonym for "bully".

3) Leia is a Rebel. Luke becomes a Rebel. Obi-Wan is, at the very least, sympathetic to the Rebellion. Han saves the day for the Rebellion after changing heart. In the start of the second movie, all the surviving characters are at A. Motherfucking. Rebel. Base. In the third movie, all of the surviving characters risk their lives for the Rebellion. But according to you, the OT is nothing more than sci-fi stream of consciousness.

In the new films, however, whether or not Anakin’s The Chosen One dangles over everyone’s heads like the Sword of Domocles. It gets tired soon in the second and third films, but, in The Phantom Menace, it has a kind of obscure mysticism that resembles Empire and Jedi.

1) It's Damocles.

2) I thought Empire was pseudo-mystic?

In fact, midichlorians serve as a metatextual wink at the Star Wars movies, an amalgamation of science fiction and fantasy themselves.

They still suck.

On the other hand, the Nubian Party (Nubian is the official adjectival form of Naboo – I like a film with the audacity to impose its own grammar on the English language) realise that they will have to take up arms against their oppressors, but not before making their peace with Jar Jar’s people.

1) Did Webster's Dictionary have an established adjectival form of Naboo before TPM came out? Does it now?

2) The "Nubian Party" did? Sure it wasn't just Amidala acting alone?

And even though the Coruscant sequence is the weakest one in the film, but it’s not unnecessary. Even at their most plodding, all the scenes in The Phantom Menace serve a purpose, and this is in no small part due to Lucas’s editorial talents as well as the film’s editor Ben Burtt’s.

No commentary necessary here, methinks.

As silly as it might be, the Gungan battle with the battle droids have a pleasant, sugary quaintness which, at its best, is reminiscent of the Agincourt Battle in Olivier’s Henry V. However, this sequence is a refrain of a darker motif introduced in Return of the Jedi with the Ewoks: primitive natives against a technologically advanced invading force. It was a Vietnam metaphor in Jedi, and watching TPM now, the Gungan battle has an ominous allusion to real-life.

1) Gungan battle - Henry V.

Gungan battle - Henry V.

Gungan battle - Henry V.

2) Everyone gets the Ewoks/Vietnamese connection. What is the ominous allusion in the Gungan battle? Seriously, is this analysis going to actually explain anything?

The original post is twice as long and twenty times stupider. Here's a PS - the author responding to someone in the comments section:

(incidentally, Jar Jar is also great in Clones – you know your actors aren’t doing their jobs properly when they start getting upstaged by digital data).

Emphasis mine.

Post
#329479
Topic
Yet ANOTHER DVD boxed set...*sigh*
Time

This pretty much sums up Lucas's real attitude towards the fans and the franchise. I don't even think the guy is motivated by money anymore. He's just being lazy, yet won't give rights of SW to other people who care because, well... because he's George Lucas.

 

There's probably an ongoing discussion amongst Lucas, McCallum, and Burtt where they're cooking up ways to alienate every last SW fan. OT fans, PT fans, SAGA fans, Lucas haters, Lucas apologists, etc. And those guys all pitch money into a pot - $1000 per man, every year until SW dies. The idea that kills the franchise for good wins the pot for the man who thought of it.

The one rule is that the idea can't be so bad that the attempt is super obvious. I'll bet George has come within a hair's breadth of breaking that rule hundreds of times.

Post
#329336
Topic
How I would've made the prequels if I had the same resources as GL.
Time

First, I would've used film cameras instead of digital cameras. Digtal cameras don't capture the image with the aesthetic beauty you get with film. Digital camera technology is improving, capturing image quality closer to film all the time, but it is still not good enough, so if making them today, I would choose film over digital media. Working with digital media is a hell of a lot easier than working with film because there is no developing time, the video is recorded and ready to work with immediatly. But I would be willing to go through the hassle of dealing with film to get the same look as the OT.

 

I agree, but this is probably the least critical problem plaguing the PT. If the PT was great - or even very good - I wouldn't have cared if they'd used digital, analog, or daguerrotype.

Second, I would've used models, physical gags, for special effects, little or no CGI. I would use CGI subtly if I could make it fit in with the film, But if I couldn't, I wouldn't use it at all. Why spend $300 million for CGI work when I can get infinatly superior work done for a fraction of the budget with artists seasoned in the work of physical gags and models. People didn't like the CGI in the prequels because it reflected the maturity of the work. In the OT they had model and physical gag artists working on the movie. These people were seasoned artists who had a mature eduacation on what looks good on film. They were pasionate about the films. With the prequels I don't get that impression. To me, it seemed like the people who worked on the prequels were a bunch of video game nerds. These are people who are good with video software and not the art of filmaking. They didn't have knowledge of good filmaking, their practice is still in its infancy and the CGI reflected the maturity of their work.

CGI is like a gun. Used responsibly, it's very effective. In the wrong hands, it's a disaster. As Mike J. Nichols (The Phantom Editor) pointed out, GL and company wrote entire scenes just to show off visual effects. That's unconscionable.

Third, I would've picked the best writers and directors to help me with these films. I would've kept the script and directing as far away from Lucas as possible. I'm not sure who I would pick if I could pick anyone, but I would be sure to stay far far away from Hayden Christiensen when it comes to casting.

I would have gone another route. You seem to imply here that you would have gone for established talent, big-name guys like Spielberg. My approach would be to bring in young people with an edge, people with something to prove. I don't think an older, well-established director would have had the right kind of mindset and energy for Star Wars; hell, Mr. Star Wars himself couldn't do it anymore, so why would Spielberg? The magic of Star Wars (the original movie, not the OT or the "saga") owes not a small debt to a previously unknown cast and crew. The PT gave us faces we already knew and it colored our perceptions (Samuel L. MF Jackson) - and the big names in the crew (Lucas, Burtt, John Williams) only proved that they lack much of what they once demonstrated a mastery of.

As for Hayden, you're spot on, of course. Even during his good acting moments, he seldom showed any real presence. In his darkest scenes, he wasn't fearsome. I was more scared of Blair Underwood in Diary of a Mad Black Woman than I ever was of Hayden Vader. Jake Lloyd was scarier when he said "I'm a person and my name is Anakin!" during TPM.

Forth, I would've kept the dark, gritty, realistic tone the OT in the prequels. The prequels have this disney feel to them, I would've gone completely in the other direction. I would've had the force remain a subtle metaphorical kind of thing like it was in the OT. Not have it escalade to this rediculous thing were it enables you to jump around like Mickey mouse on crack. Oh and no midiclorians bullshit.

I'm not a fan of the Flying Jedi Brothers, but I have to admit that there wasn't too much of it. It was utterly stupid at times: Count Dooku somersaulting off the catwalk before the duel in ROTS, Yoda the Hedgehog in AOTC, Obi-Wan's dramatic and totally convincing reversal against Darth Maul at the end of their duel in TPM. Take those out (somehow) and the Super Jedi thing isn't so bad. But turning the mystical Force into some sort of Force quantifier was weaker than a 50-cent martini.

Two simple steps would have darkened the tone of the PT: more convincing storytelling and returning the "used future" to Star Wars films. Everything looks so nice and clean and the storytelling is so awkward and clumsy, of course it comes off childish and unrealistic.

I can't wait to do some fan editing.

Post
#328501
Topic
How do you imagine the battle?
Time

I never had the distinct luxury of imagining Anakin and Vader as separate characters. I was seven years old when I first saw Star Wars in 1982 and was told that in Empire Vader was revealed as Luke's father. At that age, it didn't occur to me to reject the official, canonical tale.

Therefore, I imagined the battle as taking place above a huge lava pit (though not on a volcanic world) with Vader enraged at Obi-Wan for taking his children from him. He wanted his children to follow in his footsteps and surpass him, whereas Obi-Wan wanted to shelter them from the Dark Side. In my seven year old version, the duel would have started in the very beginning of the movie and come to an end around the time that the movie ended. Sextagenarian George Lucas had just a little more restraint in ROTS than I did before ROTJ.

Post
#328270
Topic
Less Offensive Midichlorians
Time

"All" never literally means all, -1. Some people even like GW Bush.

 

if its simple for you, fine keep it simple....and don't mess with the midichlorians..

if you want something a little deeper, absorb the scientific aspects into the force...

if want it really complicated, then the EU fleshes that out...

 

why does any one version of it have to be 'wrong'?

 

Wrong? Well, that's a bit strong. But the midichlorians concept certainly clashes with the nebulous, inexact qualities the Force had in the OT. It's jarring to see something mystical turned into something quantifiable - or do you like to know how magic tricks are done before you see them?

Post
#327448
Topic
Star Wars, Take Two?
Time

 

Obviously, movies have a capitalist component to them, which is why so many different franchises get facelifts. For one recent and relevant example, Batman has been portrayed on the big screen by Adam West, Michael Keaton, George Clooney, Val Kilmer, and now Christian Bale. That's five different Batmen in roughly 40 years over a span of seven films. Think also of James Bond: George Lazenby, Sean Connery, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton, Pierce Brosnan, and now Daniel Craig. Six Bonds in well over forty years in I don't know how many films - twelve, fifteen, twenty?

And of course, there are countless others which have given a new interpretation: Mission: Impossible, The Brady Bunch, Bewitched, The Dukes of Hazzard, The Beverly Hillbillies, The Avengers, Shaft, amongst so many others. And lest we forget, Star Trek will get a facelift very soon.

At one time, the idea of a recast and updated Star Wars would have been anathema to me; I have actually done a 180 on this. I actually think Star Wars, the original, would benefit from the existence of a new version.

Anyone else with me?

Post
#315628
Topic
Will your interest in the Star Wars universe be affected...
Time
I think my interest now is where it will stay. That is, my interest has somewhat diminished in these last 10 years. Really, the hyper expansion of the EU through videogames and books, the release of special and special-special edition OT's, and the release of brand new SW-branded movies made by a once-brave and innovative filmmaker have all combined to make my love for SW kind of a "strong like". Lucas, in retrospect, should have done one of the following two things:

1) Keep SW off the big screen after Jedi. Sure, this option keeps huge dollars out of his coffers. Still, he was never going to leave this earth anywhere close to poor. There's still residuals from merchandise and EU novels. My guess is that if there were no SE or PT in the works, the EU explosion would not have been what it became.

2) Let somebody else write and direct the PT. Obviously, GL was too close to SW to let that happen - it gave him everything one could ever get - but perhaps he should have thought it through a bit more: If the new PT was crap, it's not his fault. If the new PT was good, that crew is simply standing on GL's shoulders. Either way, GL would have made a killing without personally butchering the product, as it happened in real life.

I guess what I mean by all of this babbling is to say that SW was at it best when so much was left to the imagination. Until recently, we didn't know who Luke's mother was, what the Clone Wars were, how the Empire came to be, what the person behind the Boba Fett mask looked like, and so on. GL shoehorning a bunch of explanations for every unfilled gap in the OT just made the SW universe poorer. Legends should always be left alone.
Post
#314107
Topic
Anyone else here have a love/hate relation with Revenge of the sith ?
Time
zombie84 said:

vote_for_palpatine said:


Don't get me wrong - it's not the worst of the PT movies - that would be TPM. No, ROTS pisses me off because this was the payoff movie. This was supposed to tie everything up beautifully. This was supposed to deliver a punch to the gut.


Given how the series had been developed in TPM and AOTC, ROTS far surpassed my expectations. I mean, yeah, it should have been a punch in the gut, tragic, moving, make you cry, etc--but how could that have been POSSIBLE when its TPM Part 3 and AOTC Part 2?? The first two episodes were of such low quality that in a best case scenario--realistically--ROTS would be only be "good" or "above average", which I think it more or less was. I mean did people really expect that the guy who concieved Jar Jar, wrote "I hate sand", and cast Hayden Christensen would all of a sudden write Hamlet and direct Schinlders List?? I think fans were deluding themselves. The boring plot and terrible characterisatino of AOTC put instrinsic limits on the potential Episode III ever could have; we already disliked the characters and were put off by the storyline, so it would be impossible for the continuation in Episode III to ever be as good as we imagined it. ROTS was a pleasant surprise to me, because I expected it to be a piece of shit the way AOTC was, and Lucas got his stuff together and made a movie that was heavily flawed but still entertaining on some emotional level, however thin, and thats a bit impressive considering the place he set himself up with at the end of Episode II.


I agree that a terrible precedent had been set in the first two movies. I also agree that my expectations weren't high, though my hopes certainly were. Despite these parameters, there were opportunities to build some tension into the movie. Instead of conveniently knocking out Obi-Wan, he could have been conscious to see Anakin behead Dooku, thus creating a conflict that festers throughout the movie. Or Palpatine could have convinced Anakin that the "espionage" mission was Obi-Wan's idea.

We need reasons to suspend disbelief. When Anakin turns on his so-called best friend without any reason beyond a fealty to a new power - power he wanted to save Padme's life despite the fact that he later tried to choke her to death - it doesn't ring true to me. ROTS asked more of its audience than its predecessors but didn't deliver anything more.
Post
#313946
Topic
Anyone else here have a love/hate relation with Revenge of the sith ?
Time
Actually, I have a hate/hate/hate relationship with ROTS.

Don't get me wrong - it's not the worst of the PT movies - that would be TPM. No, ROTS pisses me off because this was the payoff movie. This was supposed to tie everything up beautifully. This was supposed to deliver a punch to the gut.

Where were the shocks? Where was the actual tragedy? We were shown everything and yet we understood nothing. Anakin just kinda turned bad for no real reason - his justification for turning to the darkside was Padme. Yet, in the end he tried to kill her.

The Phantom Editor was 100% correct in saying that Lucas' serious problem as a mature filmmaker is that the "good guys" are really good and the "bad guys" are really bad. If we get a young adult Anakin in Episode I, and his character is properly established as an anti-hero with a lot of grey area, his character can evolve into evil for all of Ep. I and II, rather than a quick flash of evil in the middle of Ep. II.

Lucas built many parallels from the OT into the PT - so why not establish Palpatine's mentorship of Anakin right at the start of Ep. I, as Obi-Wan was in the OT with Luke?

Dialog problems, sophmoric/unsubtle humor, and overreliance on digital effects are rife throughout the PT (amongst many other problems), but the ultimate failure of the PT is most closely tied to the inability to properly flesh out the two critical characters, Anakin and Palpatine. ROTS emphasizes that failure more than the other two PT films.