timdiggerm

I think, generally, people make their own costumes if they want any amount of accuracy.

That would be the saddest thing ever. :(

I <3 Ridiculous Menace

TV's Frink said:

 

timdiggerm said:

Make a really ridiculous and hilarious edit of Ep1

Never release it

I see what you did there.

 

Problem?

Make a really ridiculous and hilarious edit of Ep1

Never release it

Fair point. I'd argue that Vader's eyebrows is just because you've seen the films with eyebrows. As for the planets, two of them are Tatooine and Cloud City, so those might have looked familiar? The others are Corouscant, which was a strange thing because it had only appeared in books before its 1997 inclusion, and Naboo which was added in 2004 and is PT. So, half the planets are OT, one is bizarrely EU at original time of inclusion (but was obviously Lucas looking towards the Prequels), and Naboo...well, that is PT.

My point: The eyebrows and half the planets are only strange because you've seen the OT before they were changed. Thus, they don't ruin the films, it's only the difference that's jarring. You're right about Corouscant and Naboo, though, if you haven't seen PT.

I'm going to call wwsd's post over-rated. Here's why.

wwsd said:

It's not really a fatal flaw, but the worst thing about the prequels is their effect on the original trilogy, as seen in the post-1997 new editions. The 1997 SE already made a lot of unnecessary "additions", but in the releases afterwards, the original films were mercilessly slaughtered on the altar of the prequels. The true problem with those editions is not that they changed stuff, but that they did so to serve the prequels.

Given that the title of the thread is asking about the fatal flaw of the prequels, it's pretty weird that you're making a post about the problem with the 2004/2011 releases. Particularly strange given the second half of this thread's title: "Let's take a break from hating on the blu-rays"

Just consider: Anakin's eyebrows get burned in Episode III, so they have to be airbrushed out of VI. Hayden Christensen plays Anakin in the prequels, so Sebastian Shaw has to be erased from the very ending of the film in which he was the redeemed Anakin, to be replaced by Hayden looking goofy. The prequels added Gungans, so the ending of VI needs Gungans. And of course Boba Fett and the Emperor both get replaced in ESB; and let's not get started on "No... NOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

Airbrushed eyebrows, Boba's voice, and even the Naboo shot in ROTJ do not particularly impact the OT. They're cosmetic changes, but the only reason they affect the emotional weight of the films is because you hate the prequels. If you saw all six in order for the first time, without knowing the long history and the changes, the movies would be just as good, I suspect. The only change I'll give you is "No... NOOOOO!"; I think it works a lot better silent.

Apart from the general problems of all kinds of "special editions", all these prequel insertions into the OT add one thing that is even worse: the great films of the OT actually get degraded down to the level of the prequels. The OT thus gets turned into a vehicle for the prequels, a useless piece of crap to be preceded by the prequels with their *~amazing~* CGI.

See: above. Other than "NO", they don't make the original trilogy any worse, except that you recognize it as a prequel-influenced change and have a reaction to that. Heck, one of the various changes that many people object to is the 1997 insertion of Jabba, for it's bad CG and changing the film's pacing, and that's not prequel influenced at all. I'll agree that Lucas goes crazy with the CGI, both in the prequels and the SEs, but it does make sense for the SEs if his goal is making the movies more palatable to modern tastes (which is his goal, obviously). I can't really figure out what you mean by "turned into a vehicle", but I do know that the 2004 version of the OT (haven't seen 2011 other than clips of the changes) is still two really great movies and a decent conclusion. They're not a "useless piece of crap" by a long shot. If you're purposely exaggerating because you think it helps make your point... it doesn't.

In George's great artistic vision, new fans will not watch first the OT and then the prequels, but they will watch the films in Episode order, with one (voice) actor playing one character as much as possible, and they'll be like: "Hey, you can tell Boba Fett is a clone because he has the same voice!" He'll probably never have the guts to airbrush Alec Guinness out of history, so that's one thing, but it is these smaller things (Boba Fett's few lines, the Emperor's one dialogue in ESB, etc.) that slowly chip away at the edifice of the OT.

Given that the movies are numbered 1 - 6, the idea that new fans will watch them in that order is not unreasonable. In fact, it's completely logical. If the prequels didn't suck and he hadn't made those changes, I'm sure we'd end up with an internet full of continuity nerds going on and on about how Boba Fett should have at least a similar voice to Jango, because he's a clone. Given that one of George's apparent basic premises is that the prequels don't suck and he wants the movies to fit together as best he can, the decision makes some sense. 

It's one of the best examples of the pig-headed megalomania that defines the prequels, along with the assumption that the potential viewers of the series are all drooling retards: we can't have the Emperor portrayed by two different actors, that would just be confusing! When of course, in reality, that's just how it sometimes goes with film series stretching over decades. Nobody necessarily likes it, but, for instance, the plot of Episode VI required an expansion of the Emperor's role, so they had to get McDiarmid instead of a woman with chimp eyes and a voice actor. That's just how things develop naturally. Trying to pretend that never happened is just clumsy.

There's a difference between trying to pretend it never happened (the current situation?) and replacing chimp-woman. Heck, if the prequels had never been made, but they had gone back and released a version of ESB with McDiarmid in it anyway, because at least then the Emperor would be consistent within the Trilogy, would that have been a problem? This point has little to do with the prequels and more to do with "Not Releasing the Original-Originals"

The stubbornness about the prequels is the most peculiar, though. Instead of self-critically analysing the prequels and understanding its problems, they said: the prequels are not crap, but to make things more coherent, we must downgrade the original films to better reflect the prequels!

Again with the "downgrade". What about the changes (other than "NOOOO", of course, and perhaps Jabba in ANH) actually downgrades the OT?

In itself, this wouldn't even be an incredible disaster. If Lucas or anyone else wants to mold all the films into a coherent "saga", then whatever. Maybe he could remake the OT into true "sequels to the prequels", with Hayden and Boba Fett with Jango's voice and all the other prequel goodness, naming it "Star Wars Reloaded", "Star Wars Advanced Generation". "Star Wars X-treme", "Star Wars - the TOTALLY RAD AWESOME Trilogy (TRAT)" or something. Just don't bother the rest of us with the suggestion that it is the original trilogy!

The correct term, at least around here, is "Star Wars: Revisited", and it is pretty danged good (so far). It's not the Original-Originals, but it certainly is a version of "The Star Wars Trilogy".

As it is, the prequels and their role in the degradation of the OT do pose a problem, because of the very openly stated desire to erase the OT from public memory instead of marketing it alongside the "Badass CGI Saga" and letting the viewers decide which one they like best (if the prequels and SEs are so good, what are they afraid of?). If you want to modify your own films like that, sure, that's up to you; but when you also want to control the perception of the audience as a whole, when you want to determine what they should see and how they should feel about that, then yes, you're being a bit megalomaniacal.

This is the first part of the post that I agree with almost entirely.

So what does any of this have to do with the prequels, apart from their unnecessary insertion into the OT? Well, for one thing, without them, there wouldn't be any need to insert prequel stuff into the OT if there weren't any prequels. Some of the worse features of the prequels could already be seen in the 1997 SE (or even in the original RotJ!), but they are all quite explicable and do not ruin the entire experience, even though they deserve criticism. Whereas the prequels mark a very clear and explicit break with everything that made the OT good.

And of course, considering that the prequels do exist, then it is the inexplicable and completely illogical confidence in their qualities that push Lucas to try to jam them into the OT. Without that, subsequent re-releases of the OT would simply feature further tinkering of the 1997 SE variety, but without necessarily eliminating all the good things about the OT.

As for his inability to admit they're bad, I suspect it's pride? It is probably very hard to admit that you've made bad movies, particularly with all the pressure, and George is just a human.

tl;dr: Post is off-topic and overly zealous. Given that this is ot.com, not surprising, but whatever.

EDIT: Almost forgot to say: Please quote my entire post and say "This" if you agree with me. That will really help further discussion and keep the page concisely scrollable!

In general, the EU had *more* of a fantasy feel, at least sometimes. Things like "The Mind Harp of the Sharu" really don't fit into the well-defined world of the PT

Jaitea said:

Harmy said:

Well, actually, Corruscant is far from being a prequel creation - it was created by T. Zahn in his Thrawn trilogy and it was first shown in the 97SE of ROTJ. But I totally agree with the basic sentiment of not adding anything that was prominent in the PT.

Visually, its image

J

...Blade Runner?

005, he does a lot of really great work, so thorough. I can't wait to see his comparisons of his mother, before and after George had her!

Okay, so this isn't Prequel related, but I didn't think this deserved a new thread:

I think it's probably well known that John Williams' various scores from around the same time period all feel similar (Raiders & ESB). It's also pretty well known that, when ET sees the kid dressed as Yoday, Williams inserts a bit of Yoda's theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVEHszxL7E

But am I wrong in thinking the music before that (starting at 1:35 in the above video) sounds like a happy version of Jabba's theme? Jabba + Ewoks, if you will.

Sepharih said:

This is really rough and needs sound FX as well as further audio editing, but I just wanted to see how people felt about this as an alternative to the silly "high ground" dialogue in ROTS.

You want to remove that? Don't try it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi80u8eFCKM

Oh.

Actually, that was pretty good.

! D: !

How dare he deprive all of his fans of that one extra letter, all because of greed!

I could never blame George Washington!

I guess this is spam? But spam that is at least directed at the right audience.

Which does remind me of the question: What are the Sith revenging?

Yeah, as much as "Revenge was always fake" is a fun conspiracy theory, I don't see any credence for it.

Harmy said:

Underneath the target I pasted another, darkened target in order to simulate the matte line that would have been a part of the original compositing

yesssssssssssssss

There's a bit of an issue where Grievous appears to be standing far from Obi at 0:08, and then is quite close at 0:25. Also, the disappearance of his guards between those two shots is unfortunately conspicuous.

005, I fully support the G+ Hangout idea.

Also, I want to come to all those panels, so that's pretty good. Not that we're big enough for panels.

How many really active members do we have, anyway?

Couldn't you also determine speedup rate by doing pitch comparison on some of the music?

dark_jedi said:

You do realize it is going to make it hard to enjoy these movies now, I will be focusing in on all the crap now.

Man, that's been my problem ever since I started reading this site. It's all 005's fault! Matte lines...

g-force said:

 this will shed light on the very top layer of the onion

Not sure why you haven't just told us instead of telling us you'll tell us.

dark_jedi said:

So you want to squeeze more detail out of the more static scenes, well what about the rest LOL.

I'm guessing he just won't squeeze as much detail out of them?