theprion

I see. But I think Jyn having a moral compass intrinsic of her character is less interesting than building a moral compass along with the rebel cause she grows to embrace, either from the Alliance/Saw as a stand against universal oppression, or from her father as an emotional bond. To fight the good fight, as you put it, strays from her being an anti-hero whos yet to redeem herself to a full-fledged hero whos righteous from the beginning - which contradicts the fact she’s a convicted criminal by the start of the movie, not a freedom fighter.

But I can get behind your take on Cassian’s reliance on the duo. I never saw it that way, with Jyn being the protagonist, that those scenes add to his characters’ development, so I can see the point. I didn’t think of complete removal though, just some tweaking to address those perceived issues. I might have a go at it someday.

Thanks for the thoughts, good to be a part of the conversation!

Hey DigMod, it’s great to learn of the progress made on RotR v2/ Survivor Cut. Really looking forward to it.

I just recently saw v1 again and wondered how do you feel about some points, specifically:

• Isn’t Jyn saving the little girl in Jedha a little too cheesy? I mean, the place looks like another wretched hive of scum and villainy and when negotiations go aggressive, there’s a crying little girl in the midst of crossfire… Not just conveniently a little girl, but of all of the alien populace, a human at that. R1 makes its point in having sympathetic anti-heroes in a journey for redemption and this by-the-book selfless feat just makes Jyn a tad more predictable way too soon in the movie. Surely her own childhood traumas of abandonment are pretty obvious by then for the audience to need this kind of unsubtlety. Also, it makes for a strange cut that Jyn’s hair is all messed up after the blast but is back to pristine in the next shot.
• Right after that Jyn guns down a trooper without as much looking his way…
• In the alley fight, Jyn goes berserk and batons up about five armored troopers. The movie sticks again with the conventional hero archetype - has to be kind, has to be physical. Even though its guerilla warfare going down.
• K2 slides in and out too conveniently during Jedha. It’s okay we get to learn how much of a rebel he is the first time, disobeying Cassian and shadowing the team all along. But then he turns off the defiant/protective attitude when Cassian orders him back to the ship a second time, and right when they are about to be captured once again… he turns his back and consents, to be seen again only when apocalypse hits (and it wasn’t a plan to get to Saw because he was just “standing by as you requested” while folks would hopelessly be Bor Gullet’d).

These bothered me to some degree and I thought of sharing. Would like to know what you think of it.

Eyepainter said:
Jango is to Epsiode II what Jar Jar is to Episode I.

Ha, so tragic and so true!

Sorry, Prion, but I tried (and it ended up being a disaster).

I’m glad that you tried, though. It’s nice that you were open to the suggestions to try new approaches. Also good reference to know how far you can push the film until it breaks.

Looking forward to what you make of it!

Eyepainter said:
I’m not sure where I said that Jango wasn’t on Geonosis.

Sorry, I meant to write “doesn’t die on Geonosis” and got lost in the train of thought.

My only concern is that Mace Windu’s entrance might be needed. Having just a bunch of random jedi appear out of nowhere seems a little vague and hard to follow.

You’re right, I had completely forgotten of Mace’s entrance. First thing that comes to mind would be removing Jango from the shot to be replaced by one of the neimoidians, but I don’t know how feasible (or worthwhile) that is to the scope of the edit.

Some interesting workarounds.

But since Jango isn’t on Geonosis in your cut, why not completely cut him from the film? He was always an useless fanservice of a character anyways.

Consider this: the kaminoans might have their gene pools or something like that. Why would they (or Count Dooku, for that matter) need a random mercenary to be either an outside asset or a loose end on this monumental operation? So Obi follows the dart trail to Kamino, discovers the clone army, and when he is about to meet the unknown “supervisor” who ordered the clones, a ship (still Slave I, but who cares) departs hastily upon learning of the jedi’s inquiry, but not before Obi whips him a tracking device. This should improve the veil of secrecy involving Count Dooku and the assassination plan when Obi-Wan finally uncovers him in Geonosis, rather than just skip leads from one bounty hunter to another. What do you think?

As for Shmi, I’m curious to see how you make it work. Paired with the downplaying of Jango, these are some promising changes I have no knowledge of prior attempts.

Hal 9000 said:

You (probably?) have the current version; that description wasn’t meant to be an exact quote. I re-recorded the lines for V2 or V3 but the wording remained the same, I believe.

And my prequel edits take a deliberate approach not to alter their “prequel” nature, as those three films read that way naturally. They aren’t any better or worse than the theatricals in terms of viewing them chronologically versus in release order. Plus, what happens with the twins is already less clear that ideal given the footage available to work with the “Padme lives” idea, so I wouldn’t want to muddle it further.

Hmmm, I see.

I personally think the less clear than ideal role of the twins actually makes for a more compelling loose end to be tied up later, whether Padme survives or not. But I understand its not your approach.

The medical prognosis as it currently is, however, does make an avoidable confusion for the “Padmé lives” ending, just because the droid clearly states that her survival is at stake and a moment later we see her settled in Alderaan. It would be strange that her sustained injuries or her profound sadness had not killed her in days after giving birth, as implied by the droid and the original ending, rather than the longer amount of time she is given to spend with Leia enough for her daughter to remember her. If the implication, however, is that Padmé indeed perishes in Alderaan soon after the twins delivery, Leia is still too young to remember her mother and the change might be somewhat redundant.

So even if you show Padmé alive, the medical prognosis is just not consistent with her survival. If the droid lines were exactly how you phrased them yourself in your cutlist, however, it would work like a charm.

Hey, Hal!

This probably has been considered by someone else before, but how would you feel about not showing Padmé giving Luke and Leia their names?

We would still see her giving birth to the twins, but wouldn’t who they are or what do they matter at that point. It might be more interesting for a newcomer introduced only by the edits (crazy, I know), to kick off A New Hope not knowing who Luke and Leia are right out of the gate, making that connection much later as it was originally done by the end of the OT.

[JEDIT] Also, even though your cutlist mentions Padmé prognosis is that “she’ll survive without ever fully recovering”, the medical droid (yourself?) says that it “cannot say how long she might last”. Do I have the right version of the edit or that’s really it and maybe it gives the wrong idea?

The cut list is very promising. I might have missed something though: what is the fate of Shmi and Jango Fett?

I could not help but fanedit the whole movie in my mind while watching, but mostly to trim redundant sequences and the atrocious (signature Nolan) expository dialogue.

As for chronology I think the movie is actually pretty linear. The thing to grasp is that its all a closed loop: all that happens to the Past Protagonist is happening simultaneously to the Future Protagonist, but of course, in reverse. Is just that we’re stuck with the past perspective for the sake of catharsis.

In the first opera scene, the Future Protagonist is glimpsed being there to test the Past Protagonist, so that he can recruit himself into Tenet - and the whole film follows this thread until Tenet secures the Algorithm. That’s the turning point between Past and Future, where the Past Protagonist becomes aware of his role and as now Future Protagonist, commits to do the whole chain of events, starting with organizing Tenet up until he first recruits himself back into the Opera House. The chain of events for the Future Protagonist, that way, would be the reverse order of the movie. That’s the SATOR square coming full circle.

For a fanedit I would say:

• The Opera mission is deliberately confusing to set up the rest of the movie, and even with some mild trimming it could be more straightforward;
• The scientist briefing and the shooting range just make it all worse and add that “to avoid WW3” red herring, so I would completely ditch it. It might feel important to explain the film’s premise but the exchanges with Priya later do a much better job at it;
• The Mumbai break-in is also disposable, as introducing Neil and Priya could easily do without the action and it would save lots of the film’s pace in the first act;
• 50% of Sator and his wife could be gone too, ugh. Specially the boating “accident” and the following drama. I’d say Protagonist blackmails Kat, Kat introduces Protagonist at dinner (no affair implied), Protagonist does business with Sator and moving on;
• The battle royale at the final act is eye-popping but is too over indulgent. The whole operation is kinda nonsensical anyways, and it gets too ridiculous if you stop to think about it. Could be trimmed to give more focus to the main characters who are actually recovering the algorithm and not blowing up city ruins for some reason;
• Lastly, the confrontation between Kat and Sator. Takes waaay too long, but that might be because the warzone sequence just keeps dragging on.

In the end, I think Tenet would benefit greatly with just a reduced runtime and an even pace. Maybe still confusing, but an improved watch of an otherwise entertaining cinema experience.

Octorox said:
I personally recommend Hal’s Labyrinth of Evil as my go-to edit for Episode III. His I and II edits are a little too conservative for my tastes, but I think his III mostly strikes the right balance.

Thats exactly how I feel about it, if I may intrude.

Haven’t got around to watching your TPM edit, but I’ve been personally considering L8wrtr’s the gold standard for a while now.

That being said, Sanded Down is my favorite AOTC edit. Sharp, very economic and straightforward. It has a couple of rough cuts, but I can’t stand anything in other approaches that range from Dex, Naboo and the droid factory that would make me choose any of them over yours.

So its great to know you’re still planning a next iteration - hopefully with those edges ironed out and the new upscales included.

Great job with trimming SC38-R, Buzz! Seamless and to the point, I think it’s the best work on it I’ve seen so far.

Can I also get a link to the whole cut?

Thanks a lot.

Are you still sharing your ESB:R upscale?

Would love to check it out.

Since Adywan’s fixes are being discussed, there’s a little nitpick he does in his edit that I haven’t seen adressed anywhere else yet.

After the inspection team boards the Falcon inside the Death Star and Han and Luke lure in the troopers guarding the hatch, the off-screen altercation that ensues, originally heard with blaster fire, is replaced by a corporal struggle SFX.

It makes way more sense after that to see their stormtrooper guises looking completely pristine (more than assume the troopers missed once again at point blank, that nobody else heard the shooting or that our heroes would execute grunts so frivolously anyways).

I don’t know if its worthy including just that bit of the track but I figure it would be another one of Ady’s fixes to note (that and the wobbly doors, of course 😃).

Looking forward to the completion of yours!

alexp120 said:

I could use an 1080p upscale of Adywan’s ‘Star Wars:ANH-Revisited’. It was released in 720p.

Although Adywan said that he’ll resume work on this next month, who knows when he’ll be finished. You know how these project owners are: It will be finished when it’s finished.

I second this but of course, regarding ESB:R which actually is in 720p.

Adywan does some sweet sorcery, but its getting harder and harder to take any improvement in HD over the sharpness and detail of (even downscaled) UHD or 4kxx.

So an AI upscale of it would be the bomb. Been seeing lots of these things around and some are really impressive.

Does anyone have knowledge if this was ever subbed?

Awesome! Can’t wait!

Hal 9000 said:

If you’d like to send them to me, I can upload them to the Google Drive, so anyone who’d want them can get them!

Done!

DigMod said:

I just checked my link for this edit and Mala’s .srt file was added some time ago. If you need the subtitle file just fill out the edit request form again and you’ll be able to get it. Thanks again Mala!

Are you adding any footage (ie. Odyssey) to your base non-survivor cut that could throw these subs out of sync?

I’m interested in translating them to Brazilian Portuguese, and I can start work on it depending on whether or not the runtime will be the same. If you are, I’ll wait for V2 to come out - if not I’ll do it right away so you can include them in V2 (if you’d like, that is).

What do you say?

Big fan of your edits.

Cheers!

I don’t know if its been done before, but I’ve recently translated Labyrinth of Evil’s English subtitles to Brazilian Portuguese.

If that interests anyone, PM me.

Thank you Hal9000 for the amazing edit.

Cheers!

CatBus said:

No problem. Long pedantic answers on obscure topics are my specialty!

Both GOUT and theatrical refer to the unadulterated versions of the films. When films were released on home video, it was pretty typical for a few frames to get dropped, most typically at reel changes, but sometimes elsewhere. Honestly it’s not unusual for theatrical showings to also be missing frames at reel changes. Theatrical refers to that perfect set of every single frame ever on any projection prints. GOUT refers to a set of frames used by one of the most common, and most complete home video releases. Even when dealing with the exact same cut of a film, if you use a slightly different set of video frames, this affects sync, thus the terms “GOUT sync” and “theatrical sync”.

GOUT is a frame standard that dates from back when people were ripping Laserdiscs, based on the 1993 Definitive Collection Laserdiscs. These were re-released, with the crawl reverted to its original form, thirteen years later as a DVD bonus disc known around here as the GOUT. There were actually two GOUT standards, NTSC GOUT, and PAL GOUT, and they did not have exactly the same set of frames. If they don’t specify, people usually mean NTSC GOUT. There are nearly thirty years worth of synced audio and subtitles scattered over the Internet all using the GOUT standard, so if you just find some random Star Wars audio track, more likely than not, it’s GOUT-synced.

Theatrical is something we’re pretty sure about at this point, but technically we could still be surprised by an extra frame on some print floating around out there. Based on what we know right now, it goes like this:

Star Wars theatrical = NTSC/PAL GOUT + 1 extra frame
Empire theatrical = same as PAL GOUT, or NTSC GOUT + 2 extra frames
Jedi theatrical = NTSC GOUT + 2 frames, or PAL GOUT + 1 frame

Despecialized is GOUT-synced throughout, although the current Empire sync is off by one frame due to a mistake (if you add a one-frame offset to your audio/subtitle tracks, it goes back to perfect sync). 4K77 is GOUT-synced, and 4K83 is theatrically synced.

One frame is about 42ms, two frames is about 83ms – certainly the visuals from that number of frames are nothing you would notice was missing or not. And for subtitles, that amount of difference is irrelevant as well. Project Threepio is GOUT-synced, but it works fine with 4K83 with no modifications. Audio is another matter. A two-frame difference between audio and video is definitely something I can notice (and I was shocked to discover it’s bad enough I can notice it with dubs as well), but some don’t notice it at all. One frame is probably less than I could notice, but I’m sure others could.

In short, no matter which frame standard you use, you’re getting the original unadulterated cuts of the films. No special edition revisionist nonsense either way. But you can’t mix-and-match between the two standards haphazardly, or some percentage of the audience is going to think the audio’s annoyingly out of sync. IMO the main problem with trying to get people to change from GOUT to theatrical is that the standards are too close. If they were off by a full half-second or something, it would be clear when there was a mismatch. But as it stands, mismatched audio is just too easy to pass off as close enough.

The UHD/D+ versions are synced to some other Special Edition frame standard I don’t know anything about. If it’s not the original versions, I don’t really follow it.

That was great, CatBus! Thanks a lot for the clarification.
The reason I asked is because was trying to mux BD tracks into a theatrical preservation - to no avail, of course.
So I would appreciate a look at your set of subs, if you will.
Thanks again!

Hello there!
Can anyone shine a light for me on what’s the difference between theatrical and gout sync?
I understand where gout comes from and that 4kxx and Harmy’s are on the standard, but what exactly does theatrical refer to if gout is the “unadulterated” one? Also, where do the UHD BDs/D+ fit in there?
This makes me pretty confused and I figured this would be the right place to ask.
Thanks!

lantern51 said:

Got a new version based off feedback from you guy! Let me know if you want to see it and if you do, let me know if there is anything that still needs fixing that I over looked!

Hey, would love to see the updated version!