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thebluefrog

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29-Sep-2017
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10-Mar-2024
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Post
#1350168
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Does anyone think Han as Rebellion General was peak Solo?
Do they love him for his role as lapsed Smuggler?
Is he at all iconic as a failed father?

Harrison was right to want his character dead by the end of ROTJ.

Exactly. Harrison’s ideas of where the character should go have merit. If only Hamill’s ideas had been listened to as as well.

Post
#1349965
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

thebluefrog said:

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Well, yes and no.

Yes, if you’re going for unchanging characters since the actors have inhabited these roles for years and know a whole lot about what makes these characters tick.

No, if you’re going for a continuation of a character arc like Hermit Luke. In this case it’s important for the writers to know what they’re doing.

Not at all. Harrison Ford, for example, wanted Han to die.

Post
#1349945
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

JKMaxx said:

Not to comment too much on the validity of either situation, but given the constant ongoing cries of character assassination over hermit Luke despite that idea coming from Lucas, pre-dating both Rian and JJ, I can’t imagine the wider reaction to the idea that Leia started the First Order and was to blame for all of it all along. Even if it could track with her character arc, just the tarnishing of her good name so to speak would drive people insane. I certainly would be impressed with any edit that pulls it off, but just something to keep in mind.

There’s one benefit to give Lucas’ writing over Rian or JJ: Lucas listened to the actors and altered the character arcs and stories based on their feedback. There’s countless interviews from the OT where Ford or Hamill said Lucas was able to be convinced that their characters wouldn’t do X or say Y.

So hermit Luke indeed was a Lucas idea, but definitely would not have been executed as Rian did, especially given how Hamill was unhappy with the way the character was written. Even the cliche Obi-Wan “old master gives Excalibur and then dies” would’ve been a better way to end Luke than the contradicting yes/no/maybe mess from JJ and Rian.

Frankly, they should’ve both just let Hamill and Ford et al. decide their characters’ fates.

Post
#1348381
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

JakeRyan17 said:

thebluefrog said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

In the end, there was no real arc for Finn, so that renders most of TLJ’s characters kinda there. Canto Bight, DJ, Rose…if Finn HAD died in TLJ, it would’ve been at least some form of resolution. The fakeout is basically the end of his character path in the sequels and it’s pretty weak.

Finn had a clear arc in The Last Jedi, and the clever thing was it was inverted from Rose’s even though the same experiences teach them the lessons. Rose and Poe’s arcs are to go from an “at all costs” approach, ready to sacrifice everything, to understanding that sometimes doing whatever it takes isn’t the same thing as doing it at all costs. Finn’s arc goes from a man without a cause, driven by fear, to becoming someone that understands there are things worth fighting for, even being ready to sacrifice himself. A lot of people say his arc is ruined since he doesn’t sacrifice himself, but that’s not true since he was actually ready to sacrifice himself. He was still making that choice.

While that’s true the arc could be seen that way, the fact that it had very little impact on the overall narrative renders Finn…boring. If that idea of him leading a Stormtrooper rebellion had come to fruition, that would’ve made his character’s progress throughout all 3 films something to follow on rewatches. As it stands, though, his impact overall is very minimal, despite being hyped as a major character with TFA. The general population don’t remember Finn (or even Poe), they basically remember Rey and Kylo. Even Boyega commented on how badly his character lost relevance as the trilogy progressed. Remember when he grabbed Luke’s saber and the sheer power it radiated as it ignited with his intense face? That scene in every trailer? The guy wanted to kill Kylo right then and there and there was an intensity to the fight. Then he slowly became a joke in TLJ and then full on comedic sidekick in ROS. Couple years and no one’s gonna remember him riding whatever CGI animal in either film.

That being said, it wouldn’t surprise me if the rumors are true and Boyega recants and comes back to Disney as Jedi Finn, especially now that Iger has admitted they screwed up and they need to draw back some disenfranchised fans. That footage will likely be usable with editing.

Post
#1348341
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

The difference is in TLJ the secondary characters move the character arcs along, whereas in TRoS they’re just kinda there.

In the end, there was no real arc for Finn, so that renders most of TLJ’s characters kinda there. Canto Bight, DJ, Rose…if Finn HAD died in TLJ, it would’ve been at least some form of resolution. The fakeout is basically the end of his character path in the sequels and it’s pretty weak.

Post
#1348324
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released)
Time

Dendros said:

I think at the very least we should try to have each character whose voice we hear make at least a brief appearance as a force ghost in that scene.

As shown before, Yoda, Anakin (Who should possibly be shown as sebastian shaw if possible for continuity), Luke, Obi-wan have been integrated into the scene well. I would like to additionally see at least Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jin (Especially Qui-Gon as he was the very first jedi we see chronologically, bringing the story full circle in a way). Ayla Secura wouldn’t be too hard to add from footage. Luminara Unduli has like one shot in AOTC. Adi Gallia, Kanan Jarrus, and Ahsoka Tano and don’t have any footage that I am aware of so including them might prove challenging aside from using cosplayers or something.

There may be an answer to some of this. Massive 2021 Star Wars spoilers, seriously do not look if you care about spoilers and news for the future of SW media.

https://tinyurl.com/ycbngayn

Post
#1348312
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

DominicCobb said:

2 did flow naturally from 1. I honestly don’t think there’s much in TROS of JJ’s ideas for 2 and 3. I think he got caught up in off-base fan complaints of both TFA and TLJ and he tried to rethink the whole trilogy in one film.

If you read the Artbook for Force Awakens, many ideas from it were used in ROS. For example, Rey sabering an imperial ship, returning to Palpatine’s throne room, the Death Star wreckage underwater, DIO as a variant of BB8’s design, etc.

Samples:
https://i.imgur.com/ioTT9gl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0oPFoji.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/D25CcHS.jpg

Anakin Starkiller said:

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

They were dumb questions to begin with.

Rey’s parents was kind of interesting but when you don’t answer it and leave us to think about it for a year, then everyone forms clear ideas on who they think they should be

As for everything else, I’d argue it’s less intentional mystery and more Abrams stumbling over his own feet by skipping any kind of backstory. Did you really think Snoke was supposed to be someone we knew? Of course not, because he was just Palpatine 2.0. What Abrams failed to realize was that unlike in ESB, you can’t just introduce the evil ruler of the universe without providing some context. Naturally, people started asking questions about him.

The fact that you even asked the questions at all shows that TFA’s soft reboot worked-AT THE TIME. Lucasfilm should’ve made JJ come up with actual answers to the seeds he planted to get people interested since he is notorious for not even knowing where he’s going. It’s insane how uncoordinated Disney and Lucasfilm were by allowing both JJ and Rian to just do whatever they wanted with the plotline, crossing out each other’s writing like children.

Anakin Starkiller said:

Honestly, I really like how Snoke is set up as the Emperor 2.0 but then Kylo goes “fuck this” and offs him halfway through the trilogy. It’s subversive and it works.

This, however, is one of the few “answers” that Rian came up with that sort of worked.

JakeRyan17 said:

As for new characters that were introduced in Rise of Skywalker, the two most prominent were both added to the script for the same reason: to shout “No homo”. Zorri doesn’t serve the plot, and is only there to be a romantic interest from Poe’s past. Jannah is meant to be a romantic interest to replace Rey (for the sake of Reylo shippers) and Rose. And there was no way we could allow Poe and Finn to have a romantic connection despite their chemistry, fans, and even actors’ desire… but it’s good to know there’s a line JJ won’t cross for fan service.

That’s what I mean about last minute character additions. They felt like they should’ve been introduced in 2 rather than the finale. As it turns out, none of the characters introduced in 2 or 3 were as interesting as of TFA’s mystery box characters. At the time, Rey, Finn, Kylo were interesting because we didn’t know their histories in the SW universe. They were new concepts that grew out of the old real life lore–a black, rebellious stormtrooper? A new mystery female Jedi? A psychotic “What Anakin was supposed to act like” emotional Sith? These were new, different takes on what people were used to. JJ is a terrible writer but he comes up with good concepts, and people cared about these new 3 leads.

Then we have the new characters introduced in 2 and 3. Did most audiences really care about Holdo, Rose, the literally unnamed DJ, Jannah, or Zorri? Snoke had potential but that was cut off before anything could grow.

This is why I say there may be a way to edit down the extra characters and side plots to focus on what the sequel trilogy’s main focus came down to be: one or two people’s relationship deciding the fate of the galaxy. It’s a bit of a rehash of the OT, and the PT for that matter…but maybe that’s what the sequels should be, to some degree?

Post
#1348223
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

OutboundFlight said:

I somewhat agree. I think describing how Palpatine survived would be exposition, but the way he goes about it is worldbuilding for the Sith. They are forever intertwined.

In that essence, “exposition” isn’t bad either. I think we can all agree understanding why Palpatine returns is important.

For me the biggest issue with the ST’s “worldbuilding” or “exposition” or whatever is it doesn’t add logically to the earlier movies. When you jump from Ep 1 to 2, you are going in expecting Obi-Wan to be training a now Jedi Anakin. Ep 2 to 3 you expect the Clone Wars from how things last ended. 3 to 4 you expect the Empire to be in charge.

The jump from 6 to 7 is so frankly confusing because we expected to see Luke with a Jedi Order and the New Republic established. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to have tons of stuff go down in 30 years, but in terms of storytelling it feels strange. “Return of the Jedi” also is a very strange title when you think about it nowadays. With TLJ, it’s more a case of them having some sort of chance to fix these issues, but they doubled down instead. So it’s not really RJ’s fault, moreso him following Abram’s suit.

The closet comparison I can make is if Revenge of the Sith came out first, and then everyone got hyped for the sequel 19 years later… only to find the Empire was destroyed just a year after ROTS, Anakin was redeemed off-screen and is now missing, and Luke is training to be a Jedi like the entire PT never happened.

That’s a really good take. It’s why the sequel trilogy felt so disjointed. It wanted to be both a fresh start for Disney but also wanted to play it safe and have the nostalgic lore of the originals.

JJ and his “mystery box” approach worked for getting people interested in the “fresh start” aspect. However, without any actual payoff, TLJ retroactively undoes any intrigue or mysteries of TFA. The surprises of Empire don’t make watching ANH worse in its plot points (for the most part) but TLJ makes all the questions from TFA basically pointless.

ROS needed to be the second film–it clearly was a mishmash of his 2 and 3rd film ideas scribbled on one page, since ROS introduced so many extraneous characters…in the finale? If the 2nd film had at least followed naturally with the 1st, the new characters introduced in 2 would have natural storyarcs flow into 3, like Lando from Empire to Lando the hero in Jedi.

There may be a way to do an edit that shaves off all the extra pointless characters and mixes TLJ and ROS into a more coherent storyline.

Post
#1347374
Topic
Star Wars: <strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> Redux Ideas thread
Time

Some experiments have been done with Duel of the Fates or Battle of the Heroes being part of the Kylo/Rey fight. Here’s different timing examples.

Battle of the Heroes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOpRpYSXfkU
This one is well done–it also uses timing cues from the original lava fight, 1:12 is a good example.

This one uses the crescendos better for the force blocks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMVwE-d4yU

Duel of the Fates:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djWxPM_41dQ
Good use of the low key at 1:35, but the timing of the Force-blocks doesn’t 100% match.

This one has slightly better timing of Duel’s chanting at the force block moments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYFlmVw4WUg

Interesting split screen comparison between Anakin/Obi-Wan and Rey/Kylo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCGpbotwRXw

Post
#1346963
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released)
Time

Movies Remastered said:

I’m trying to bring it up here as I got my ass handed to me on reddit but…

Did anyone debunk the fact that Ray destroys kylo ren’s whisper after she jumps over it but then 2 seconds later it’s back? Both Vader and kylo Ren had prototypes before I.e. the silencer, so why would he have an extra as it was a specifically modified Interceptor?

I’ve fixed it but wondering people’s thought?

It was kept in the same second transport Chewie was really in.

Post
#1344986
Topic
Unusual <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong> Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

A radical change of all 3 films would be to remove the extraneous characters that added nothing to the overall plot. Thus leaving us with the classic 3 plus the new characters that have arcs…which is basically Kylo and Rey.

The war itself could be restructured to be an escalating battle to the climax in 9.

Using the “big moments” as the basis, the storyline can be altered but still workable with the footage.

These would be hard, but feasible with heavy dialogue editing and rotoscoping.

The big battle climaxes are:
Starkiller exploding.
Snoke’s fleet being rammed.
Exogal fleet falling.

The big classic character climaxes:
Han talks to Kylo.
Luke’s force projection.
Leia’s spacewalk.
Leia’s talk with Kylo.

The big new character moments are:
Rey’s self-discovery moments.
Kylo killing Snoke.
Kylo redeeming or dying.

Sadly, Poe, Finn, Rose, Holdo, Lando, Hux and Phasma…they all basically had no character arcs. Poe ALMOST does. He might be saveable, but the others would have to go. Snoke is a total mess, but fixable with the right dialogue with Palpatine.

The big force power moments:
Rey grabbing saber.
Rey’s dark cave visions.
Force healing.

So perhaps there’s a way to restructure all these into a longer more cohesive narrative.

Let’s experiment with Leia.

What if we remove Holdo altogether? Leia is now the main leader of the rebels. We can incorporate her slowly deteriorating body language as a reflection of Kylo’s corruption.

If we restructure the space battles, the footage of Snoke’s ship (which was a beautiful shot) can become part of the entire story’s climax.

So, what if Leia’s big force power reveal is changed slightly. The final battle above Exogal is going badly. Rebel ships are dropping. Leia’s ship takes a massive blow, it starts to drift, she appears to get sucked out…

Now to rework Luke’s footage. We have his force projection meditation and his death. Can this be incorporated into the above final battle? Perhaps he went into exile to go past the physical lightsaber-style fighting and into a new realm. So from his deserted island, he found a way to tap into a larger power that is beyond distance.

So while the battle is raging, we cut to Luke meditating. Ships are dropping. Palpatine has electrocuted everything. Things are lost. Cutting between Leia and Luke shows they are force-contacting each other for the last time as she is about to die.

Things pause in silence, she makes one final force movement, and BOOM. Her damaged ship makes the 1 in a million kamikaze that wipes out the Sith fleet and turns the tide of the final battle.

So instead of the force spacewalk, the footage of her floating off to space is changed to be her final sacrifice. Luke truly learns how to transcend the physical as the Jedi always intended, working together as the final Skywalker family act.

However, we’re not done yet…

Now how can this change Kylo’s arc?

Well, perhaps Leia can be contacting him from the force ghost nether. Han’s ghost could actually be Han: a force projection from Leia herself. Using Leia’s dialogue would make that feasible that she’s bringing Han out for Kylo’s sake.

This is just an example of rearranging existing footage to still have a cohesive narrative. I think there’s many other options, but this is how using TLJ + ROS footage together can make a better climactic end to both Skywalkers.

Next post, tackling villains, so Snoke, Sith, First Order and their general uselessness.

Post
#1343717
Topic
The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released)
Time

Humby said:

My dream for the end of this movie would be to include a brown robed Ben Solo walking off of the falcon and out away from the Lars homestead, seeking isolation. Shortly after, when Rey looks off and sees the ghost twins, you first see Ben Solo walking away in the distance before they fade in before her. Obviously that would also mean cutting his death from earlier on.

I genuinely thought they were going to end this way, especially as Driver said he didn’t want Ben’s story to end like Vader’s.