DoomBot said:
Yeah could the Matrix be done the same way?
IF Matrix BD is better than Matrix HD-DVD
AND IF Matrix DVD has the "right" colors
THEN I can do it - I have the sources!
Now I'm involved in a new project, but this could be one of the next ones...
SilverWook said:
I have read that Dragonheart and Apollo 13 look better on HD DVD. Universal apparently went DNR happy on the Blu Ray masters...
Yes, you are right, IIRC you wrote it into another thread in this forum... oh, well, I'm really getting older every day... too much older, indeed... I should add some TB to my brain, or simply change the CMOS battery...
Jetrell Fo said:
I do have cinema DTS for this one ..... so if it's a consideration, let me know. We'll get it worked up for you.
:)
"let's get it started"! Why don't add the LD AC3 soundtrack - along with the italian LD PCM?
Turisu said:
Apologies for the non-working link. Here’s the page I got it from: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare6/thething.htm
If you scroll to the bottom you’ll see the shot of the dog staring out the window in which it appears that this particular dog definitely has brown eyes. I’d be interested to see the LD color of this shot to see if it stays consistent with the one above.
Don’t worry, thank you for providing the new link.
Here you are a on-the-fly laserdisc capture: top taken from BD, bottom from LD (rough upscaling done with MSpaint):
As you can see, eyes are brown, and the LD colors seems better to me - no pinkish tint there. Still thinking that something went wrong when they scanned the film for high definition formats…
UPDATE:
Just finished to rip the italian PAL DVD - primarily to have the italian soundtrack; I was checking the video, and guess what? colors are really close to the ones of the laserdisc! I think to merge the PAL DVD and LD together, to achieve the “best of both (chroma) world”: even if this DVD is not anamorphic (sigh!) it has 360x194 chroma resolution, while the LD should have something that could stay from around 160x338 to 240x338 - more probably close to the second figure, if not even higher; while the HD-DVD should have 960x408 - but luckily human eye are less sensible to colors, so an high definition luma image with a lower defintion (than usual 4:1) chroma will be percieved as high definition image as well!!!
dark_jedi said:
Except for Feast, since this is the only Unrated version I wanted to include this film and the other 2 sequels as extras since I am fairly certain those will not get a BD release.
Do you mean this Feast?
Jetrell Fo said:
Jonno said:
Also Apollo 13 is much better in HD-DVD.
I own this HD-DVD and I can attest to it's awesome picture.
:)
Maybe it's time to do "Apollo 13 [spoRv]" (new acronym, do you like it?) - HD-DVD video with LD DTS audio (and, if needed, LD chroma too...)
In Jonno's thread, you talked about the fact that your UK "The Thing" HD-DVD was coupled perfectly with BD soundtrack, at the contrary the US HD-DVD version was not in sync... do you know why?
BD could decode only the surround channels from DD+, and the others will be treated as "simple" AC3; so, a DD+ from HD-DVD could be encoded in another format, as LPCM or DTS.
dark_jedi said:
LMAO! I just have to answer this, do not listen to him, go ahead and get excited, the Xbox 360 HD DVD player is what most people, if not all I know that does these kinds of projects use, I use it myself, so YES you can rip your HD DVD's with what you have, you just need to make sure you get the driver is all.
DJ, it's all your fault if I've bought another damn dead format drive along with movies... (^^,) well, now it's mine, could you please tell me where to get the driver(s) needed, and which kind of software to use for ripping (preferably free) that could also manage VC1?
Thanks!!!
I paid all less than a brand new HD-DVD movie, so it's not a huge problem, at the end (^^,)
The question is still open, though!
Just today I bought the XBOX360 HD-DVD player, along with some movies (hope to find the way to connect it to my PC and rip them…) and I asked myself “Which of these one is better than its BD counterpart, and so should be preserved?” - then, next question was “and, in general, which HD-DVD is better than Blu-Ray?”
As I leant recently, “The Thing” is for sure better in HD-DVD, and I read some time ago that there some that are slightly better, and other really really better…
Well, let’s start with mine - ah, I love dead video formats…
I have also Casino, Daylight and Waterworld on laserdisc, both DTS and italian PCM (Daylight even in AC3) - if these versions are better than BD, I will add DTS soundtracks.
Wait for your comments.
@everyone:
thanks for the interest, I hope to receive soon the HD-DVD rip - I also just bought the XBOX360 HD-DVD player just for this project!
Turisu said:
The first thing that struck me as looking wrong with the LD color timing is that the shot of the dog makes its eyes appear grey and colorless whereas you can see clearly in this shot that the dog's eyes are, in fact, brown as in the YouTube HD capture.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews41/the%20thing%20blu-ray/large/large%20the%20thing%20blu-rayx3.jpg
Sorry, link doesn't work... but I have once a Siberian Husky and, apart the fact that she had one blue eye and one brown, she was almost exactly as the laserdisc's dog - black and white - and not like HD'd dog - fawn and cream... about the eyes: I have seven thai cats (as you could see one in my avatar) and sometimes (it depend from the color of the sky) their eyes seems grey, aquamarine, or almost transparent... so, if I should decide which color timing is right based on the dog's color, I'll go with laserdisc!
You_Too said:
Those color differences are very interesting. I think for most shots, maybe a mix of both chromas would look best?
Did you download the clips? You are right, most of the time a careful mix of them should be the way to go... I think I'll release a pre-version as I wrote in the first post, and start a contest "decide which color this Thing should be"! (^^,)
,^…^, presents The Thing [spoRv] project
The Thing (1982) [special preserved or Restored version]
**LAST UPDATE: August 19, 2013; cover added on December 29, 2013.
**
Project mission: restore John Carpenter’s The Thing video to be closest to the theatrical version as could be possible at the present day, using the best video sources chosen from all the various available versions; adding the best original and remastered audio soundtracks in different languages.
Video sources: luma from HD-DVD, chroma mainly from Laserdisc.
Audio sources: uncompressed PCM soundtracks captured directly from Laserdiscs; AC3 soundtracks from DVD; DTS soundtracks from BD.
Subtitles sources: from BD.
**The Thing [spoRv]
**
Source Material
Video:
The Thing - US HD-DVD
The Thing (Pioneer Cinema) - PAL UK laserdisc CLV - for color timing reference
La Cosa (The Thing) - PAL IT DVD - for color timing reference
Audio:
Subtitles:
english, italian, french, spanish, german from the BD.
Capture setup & processing info
Hardware:
Pioneer DVL-909 PAL/NTSC laserdisc/DVD player
Sony Vaio VGX-XL202 PC CPU Core 2 Duo E6400 2.13GHz, 3GB RAM, 250GB+320GB HDDs_, BD-RE_
AverMedia BDA A16C internal video card (with Philips SAA713x chipset)
Western Digital Elements 1TB external USB HD
Microsoft XBOX360 HD-DVD player
Monster Cable S-Video 5pin cable (very high quality)
SONY optical S/PDIF cable (very high quality)
_no-brand coaxial cable (very high quality)
_
Software:
Settings:
Project status: RELEASED on August 19, 2013, on myspleen.
Video sources and processing:
HD-DVD VC-1 and DVD MPEG2 are converted using the Lagarith lossless compression (YV12); laserdisc video is captured using the Lagarith lossless compression (YUY2).
HD-DVD is used as frame reference (so no frames are cut or duplicated); it’s simply converted to lossless with not further processing.
PAL UK laserdisc is used as primary color reference: it’s captured using AviSynth at its original resolution of 720x576@25fps; then frame rates is changed to 23.976; a rainbow remover is applied to the capture, along with mild noise reduction to get rid of eventual dropouts; at the end, video is upscaled to 1920x816 and frames are cut or duplicated to match the HD-DVD video.
PAL IT DVD is used as secondary color reference: it’s converted to lossless; then frame rates is changed to 23.976; at the end, video is upscaled to 1920x816 and frames are cut or duplicated to match the HD-DVD video.<span><span> </span></span>
After a lot (and when I mean a lot, I mean A LOT) of tests, the video will be treated as following:
Then, the result video is saved as lossless, to be converted to lossy AVC for the final Blu-Ray.
Audio sources and processing:
PAL FR LD is captured (thanks to ilovewaterslides); then converted to 48KHz; as LD video frames are cut or duplicated to match the HD-DVD video, audio is adjusted accordingly to be in sync with the HD-DVD video.
NTSC US LDs are captured and processed to be in sync with the HD-DVD video (thanks to Jonno); the letterbox LD is converted to AC3.
PAL IT DVD italian, spanish and english commentary AC3 soundtracks are demuxed, then converted to PCM to be processed; as DVD video frames are cut or duplicated to match the HD-DVD video, all the soundtracks are adjusted accordingly to be in sync with the HD-DVD video; the resulted tracks are then reconverted to AC3 to be BD compliant.
UK BD english DTS-HD MA, french, italian, german DTS 5.1 and spanish DTS 2.0 (mono) are used as they are (thanks to Jonno)
Final format: BD-25
Video:
Audio:
Subtitles:
english (full and SDH); french, italian, spanish, german (full and forced) from UK BD
Special thanks to:
Jonno, for english laserdisc, all BD soundtracks, missing frames, and A LOT OF HELP!!! Without you, this project could not be the same! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Other credits:
Self comment (posted on July 18, 2013):
OK, before you throw me out of the window, please keep reading…
I don’t wanted to derail Jonno’s thread more, so I decided to start my own project. His idea (Jonno’s) to use the HD-DVD video, along with laserdisc soundtrack(s) is good; I asked in his thread if the HD-DVD video is the best video released until now, and, after I have made some homeworks, I discovered that it is, but… it’s not the “perfect” one!
I mean, it’s better than the BD; the latter has a DNR that cancelled some film drop outs, along with a lot of grain and resolution… so, what is the problem? Is the frame too cropped? I think not - comparing it to my PAL LD (which seems to be one of the finest PAL laserdisc ever produced, a very good Pioneer Cinema edtion) the HD-DVD has often some lines of resolution more on all the four sides, while few times the contrary it’s true, but the difference is negligible.
So, where lies the problem? Well, to my eyes (yes, it’s a personal point of view) the color timing is not good… maybe it’s due to the light in the scanner used for capturing the film (poita will know surely more about it), but the picture seems to have that “pinkish” tone, often seen on some HD releases…
I based my suppositions after I’ve seen screenshot comparison of HD-DVD Vs BD; as I have not (yet) the HD-DVD video, I downloaded a couple youtube HD clips (almost surely taken from the BD) to make some comparisons with my PAL LD captures; altough these HD clips are only at 720p, and heavily compressed, the colors are retained… and, as I wrote before, they are… well, wrong? The LD colors, at the contrary, seems more real to me, even if not perfect - again, a personal thought: so I had the idea to use the HD luma and the LD chroma to obtain the best resolution with right colors, and it seems to work!
Here you are some comparison screenshots; top, laserdisc captures (1-5 denoised, 6-8 raw); middle, youtube HD clips; bottom, HD luma + LD chroma (click image for larger version):
I don’t like pinkish snow and clouds, and you?
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Another case of the infamous pinkish snow…
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
This time is less pink than the previous two…
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
This time snow is blue, but… wait a moment…
are these two different dog breeds, or only two dog color varieties?
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
This time snow is white, but sky is yellowish…
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
I don’t remember their skirts were blueish…
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
…or their faces so pinkish!
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Maybe flames are not so yellow, but neither pink!
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Because the old adage “A picture worth a thousand words” is ever valid, I carefully choose some extreme screenshots to showcase the problem, but obviosly there are some scenes where the HD colors are better than LD; in those cases, the original chroma will be left untouched or mixed (depending on the scene) to obtain the best colors. I know this is not the best practice, but until there is a valid reference for colors, it’s the best I can do!
Or. better, I could release a pre-version, with both original and laserdisc chroma, and let the users (who want to help) decide which is better, with the best chroma amount (e.g. “scene 12 could be better with 20% HD chroma and 80% LD chroma, while scene 13 should have 100% LD chroma and scene 14 is better 50/50”)
Test clips - test clip 1 - test clip 2
last comparison clip - final result clip (dog)
Let the debate begins!
Covers:
Blu-ray custom cover (click for larger version, or follow the link):
DJ, there are a lot of people that say that JP 3DBD is perfect - it has the right colors and the whole frame intact... well, to me the colors are not right - but this is questionable as I'm afraid I have no eidetic memory... at least the second statement is false, as laserdisc has more picture informations at all four sides than the 3DBD... so, it could be declared that JP 3DBD is the best version ever released, but it's NOT perfect, and someone like me (and other people) prefer to have an option to see another version, also if its quality is lower than a BD - and they spent weeks, literaly, to download it...
So, I agree with you that today the HD-DVD of "The Thing" is the best version ever released, but... is this "perfect"? If I discover that, for example, the PAL version has more picture information on the four sides (like JP), or have a better color timing, I could *think* to start a laserdisc preservation, that will be never on par or near the HD-DVD (or BD), video quality wise, but could be appreciated by someone... obviously, if they have the same video, I will not waste time to do it, don't you think?
As I'm almost sure my friend has the HD-DVD of it, I'm thinking about a HD-DVD video plus LD audio will be an exciting new challenge - think that right now I have NO idea how to rip an HD-DVD (or a BD, by the way)... well, did you understand the spirit? (I should find a new acronym for this thing)
You could be right, I'm wasting my time doing stupid preservation (almost) no one wants/needs, but I discovered and learnt so many things thanks to them, and also to many members of this forum, that I'm happy I've done them. At the end, this is an hobby, and we all make it for fun, isn't true? At least, give me your opinion about my laserdisc projects... do you think they are so awful?
No problem to convert PAL speed to proper 23.976fps and sync it to the video. Well, according to LDDB:
"When Palmer shouts to Nauls' to "turn that crap down, I was shot today!", a different track, Superstition by Stevie Wonder, is playing from Nauls' ghetto blaster in the kitchen. A different track plays on the Pioneer Cinema PAL release [PLFEB 33051]. I dont remember Stevie on the 1980's UK video releases either...
...The Stevie Wonder track is the original song played in the movie. The song was changed in some releases due to licensing."
So, strictly speaking, the PAL LD soundtrack is not the original... should it must be included in a preservation then?
Now that I know that HD-DVD has a better quality than BD, I'd like to know if the HD-DVD is the "right" version to go... I mean, has it good colors, no missing edges, no missing frames/scenes, no alterations? I agree with DJ that a poor LD could not stand at the same level of a well crafted HD-DVD or BD, but if I have to choose, I prefer lower resolution video with the closest image to the original theatrical version, than the top-notch-out-of-this-world video quality *enanched* edition - but you know, I'm an old man from an old continent who loves old analog video formats, so... (^^,)
nirbateman said:
The Cinderella looks like it is a LD rip, but a poorly made one
should I start to think about a Cinderella LD box set preservation?
and has been transferred quickly with a Russian Goblin translation (One man reading all the parts with the original audio in the background, like the Polish Lektor)
I have a polish wife, and I hate that kind of so-called "dubbing"... maybe because we have some of the better film dubbers here in Italy (Tonino Accolla R.I.P.)
dark_jedi said:
...but honestly an LD BD of this, you are kidding right? the HD DVD video will just blow it right out of the water.
Yes, I was kidding... this time, at least! (^^,)
I should check if a friend of mine has the HD-DVD italian edition of the movie (it should be the same of UK) then I could try to align the PCM PAL LD soundtrack, as see what I could obtain from it... at least, I could always leave the italian soundtrack there - you know, I LOVE to hear the original soundtrack, but the italian dubbing is usually very very good too - and simpler to follow for me...
Jonno, I apologize... I was reading two different thread in two different browser tabs, this very thread and this one, and I swapped them... at least, the director is the same... (^^,) - I must learn to go to sleep BEFORE 2.00am... please forgive me...
By the way (if I'm still in the correct thread) I have the PAL Cinema Collection version of this movie ("The Thing", I suppose), so could it be useful to use its PCM soundtrack? As Pioneer usually did very good laserdisc edition, I think the audio quality is good as the US version, if not better... as usual, every time I'm talking about a movie I love that happen to be into my laserdisc collection, my "film preservation mode" is automatically turned on... "The Thing ruLes", anyone?
If you want to release a BD, you should leave the VC-1 untouched; if you want to release an AVCHD, you should reduce the size, hence you are forced to re-encode and you must use AVC anyway...
About AC3: after my JP1&2 projects, I definitely learnt how to capture AC3 laserdisc soundtrack... so, if you want to send me the laserdisc, I could do it for you - I think that the LD AC3 could be better than the DVD/BD, but I have no proof, only an "intuition", as many LD AC3 sound better than the DVD AC3 counterpart.
Jonno, it seems there is no Signature Collection laserdisc, according to LDDB - the latest NTSC laserdisc edition is this (I have this one) released in 1994... maybe it's still not present on LDDB; in this case, have you more info about it?
Probably composite is better, as your capture card *should* have a better comb filter... but you must do some testing - I reccomend to use Video Essential and the Snell&Wilcox test.
The fixed .torrent works, and it "fetch" data from the old one, as in just one day someone has downloaded it. So, I deleted the old one to avoid confusion.
agentgamma said:
Tried the new torrent and it seems to have worked.
with your 99.9% chunks, or as new torrent? If it's new, 4% in 4hrs = "only" four days to download the whole movie! Good, as I'm seeding it for three weeks!
But I'd like to know from "99.9% users" if the new torrent works, and where lies the problem(s) in the unfinished file... I mean, if there is some seconds gaps/missing from end credits, it could be still watchable, right?
Thanks to everyone, and sorry for the problem!
...uploading seems stuck at 99.9%... any hints? The folder containing the BD folder was never touched... I don't know how to solve this problem!
If I create a new torrent, will the data downloaded by the users retained?
LAST UPDATE
Well, I just recreated a new .torrent (search for the FIXED one) - hope users will retain their 99.9% and just download the missing 0.1%, but please make a backup, just in case... and please comment here if everything will be OK!
Sorry, I was out for a week, and probably the line went down three days ago... right now it's up again, and seeding... hope you all will finish to download it soon!
And, of course, I'm waiting some feedback here!
rnranimal said:
...Then I tried a 2 two-sided LDs and on each one, side one recorded fine, but side two on each had numerous samples which didn't match up.
The laser lens has different tracking settings for each side, so (for your player, as one of mine) when you play side "A" you have no problems, while playing side "B" there are problems (quite surely tracking issue).
If you use the player only to capture, you should not use the autoreverse, but play each laserdisc side on side "A" - when finished to capture the first side, just eject the disc, manually reverse it, and play the other side on side "A" again.
