spoRv

UPDATES:

Thanks to Jonno, I discovered that the HD-DVD video I have has 12 missing frames... (XX/)

Jonno managed to capture those frames for me; then I reinstated them in the correct place, color graded them as the rest of the movie, and I had to resync all the soundtracks... (XX/)

Good news: I finished in record time, and all is well!

Jonno sent me the DD+ (extracted to lossless 48KHz/24bit); at this quality, the uncompressed PCM is about 5.5GB! As the main english soundtrack will be PCM taken from the Signature Collection LD (next will be the PCM from NTSC Letterbox LD), a good third option could be a "simple" DTS 48KHz/16bit, retaining a very good quality in limited space (about 1.2GB).

I found also the italian, french, german and spanish soundtrack from BD: the italian is with "superstitious", while the DVD has not, so I'll use both; the french is 5.1 while the DVD is only 2.0, but I have the PCM 2.0 so I'll discard the DVD one; german was missing, so I'll use it; spanish on BD is better quality than DVD, so I'll discard the latter. I think I'll convert them to medium-bitrate AC3, to give more space to video and because the original recording is not that high quality - opinions about this?

Thanks! I'll take a look! Now I'm a "bit" busy with my other projects, but this is not dead, only "feezed" until the others are ready - keep following this thread.

You know, after I discovered the "Teal & Orange" affair, you will watch movies anymore with the same serenity... "Was that sky really teal? Was that face so orange?" (^^,) I'm a proud owner of many (if not all) laserdiscs that are free from T&O, and I'm happy!

If I were a powerful movie business V.I.P., I should impose a new standard for the next 4K BD: the movie MUST be released with discrete luma and chroma, and, if the movie was previously released with different color timings, each one MUST be included... should we start a petition right now?

rockin said:

BD luma, DVD chroma looks the most overall balanced to me.

I agree with you, but as I explained, it's not possible to use this technique, as the DVD and BD cropping are different (take a look at the "Neeo with green beard" screenshot...); as DVD luma + ColourMatch chroma is, maybe, 95% or better close to it, without side effects, this it the reason I decided to use this last method.

The only thing that it needs fixing is the contrast.

I could set the contrast lower to match better the DVD, but what if the DVD contrast was wrong?

We need more input from other people.

I agree.

First thing: I realized that setmemorymax and setmtmode avysinth commands made strange effects on my previous test, so I deleted them and now results seems perfect - no problem with ColourLikeFBF anymore.

After I finished the color correction tests for "The Thing", I thought to use the most successful technique with "The Matrix"... what I have discovered is that if the (upscaled) DVD chroma is applied over the BD luma, we have the best compromise (IMHO). But, as upscaled DVD has almost never the same frame crop of the BD, chroma "bleeds" and we have a bad result.

Mission: try to match as close as possible the BD luma + DVD chroma without overlay the actual DVD chroma onto the BD luma... and the mission seems accomplished overlaying the ColourMatch chroma onto the BD luma.

Essentialy, ColourMatch do the same thing ColourLike (and ColourLikeFBF) do - mimic the color of another video - but ofter results are more accurate; here you are some comparison screenshots, including ColourLike and ColourLikeFBF for reference.

WARNING! when you read "ColourLikeRGB", I'm referring to ColourLikeFBF (histogram written for each frame) applied to converted RGB video - sorry AntcuuFalb, too lazy to reupload all the screenshots! (^^,) - while ColourLike is used "as is" without converting video to RGB (one histogram for the whole video, taken every 1 frame).

***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   *** 

CL is really different, and CLRGB is in between CL and DVD, while BD+CM is almost perfect.

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CLRGB matches very well the DVD, and BD+CLRGB is close to BD+CM.

***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***

CL and CLRGB are similar between them, but both different from DVD, while BD+CM is almost perfect.

***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***

This is one of the most irritating scene to me: "Neo with green beard" on BD... as you can see, both CL and CLRGB show "green beard",

BD+DVD colors are quite good, but as DVD cropping is different, Neo seems a bit "zombie"... BD+CM seems the best.

***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***

This time CL is more faithful to DVD, and in this scene DVD, BD+DVD and BD+CM are really, really close to each other.

***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***

Conclusion: I think I should use this technique, and proclaim result as restoration and not fanedit... infact, I'm not doing color correction "by eye" matching a third color reference source, or making a personal color timing scene-by-scene, but only using BD as luma reference and DVD as chroma reference; this preservation could be considered the "son" of BD and DVD, and you know that sometimes, child takes the best from his mother and his father...

Opinions?

borisanddoris said:

The MPEG2 Predator, while not perfect, is perfectly watchable and better than anything else available.  The audio is a lot of fun.

What about color timing?

UPDATES:

lacerated has provided the isolated score (THANKS!); it will be used "as is" or, if possible, I'll try to use this score as guideline to do a higher quality version using 96KHz/24bit of vinyl rip of the original soundtrack.

ilovewaterslides has provided the french LD PCM soundtrack (THANKS!)

Jonno is working onto NTSC LD PCM soundtracks (THANKS!)

I added credits and related info in the first post accordingly.

Hope to release the project soon, next week it's a very possible target!

I know that it's almost impossible to overlay lasedisc chroma to BD luma perfectly (even if I could tell that sometimes is possible with DVD luma); I have experimented my own ColourMatch avisynth script, with good results, in my "The Thing" project, matching laserdisc chroma to HD-DVD luma; but, because laserdisc has some clipped whites, I preferred to overlay the resulting ColourMatch chroma to HD-DVD luma: result is not perfect, but very very good - take a look at the thread, there are some screenshots there. There are few scenes where the result is less good, but the same don't look good on HD-DVD either, so...

I'd like to test my technique on Disney - I dare to think it will be easyier to use it with animation instead of film, as there are less colors to mimic... well, if someone want to send me 1min lossless clip from BD (with wrong colors) and from DVD or LD (with right colors) I'll test it ASAP!

UPDATE:

Video

conversion to lossless is ready - when audio will be finished I'll convert it to AVC at the highest possible bitrate to fit a BD-25; I've watched some scenes and colors are good to excellent, except the part where the spaceship could be seen; they are few seconds, and even the HD-DVD colors were not so good, so I decided to leave it as is, for color continuity.

Audio

the following soundtracks are ready and in sync:

• LD PAL PCM english 2.0
• DVD PAL AC3 english 5.1
• DVD PAL AC3 italian 2.0
• DVD PAL AC3 french 2.0
• DVD PAL AC3 spanish 1.0
• DVD PAL AC3 commentary 1.0
• HD-DVD english DD 5.1 (from DD+ core)

the following soundtracks must be syncronized:

• LD NTSC PCM english 2.0 from 1990 (must check if it's different from PAL)
• LD NTSC PCM english 2.0 from 1998 Signature Collection

eventual isolated score must be made.

if french PCM soundtrack will be available in the next few days, I'll add it too.

Subtitles

they still must be found - I should find the same language of the soundtracks; help is appreciated.

nirbateman said:

Well, out of your collection, I'd say the BATB, TLK and Fantasia are most in need. The others have had a pretty good run on DVD and BD.

OK, now I know.

TLM could be useful for a lossless capture of it's sound mix, as the video is P&S, and the BD captures do look pretty damn good.

I agree.

I want to say Cinderella and Pinocchio, but ww12345 and poita have purchased excellent film prints for both, which should be of reference quality once those projects are done with.

Hope they will do them!

Also, could you put the using of LD color and BD luma in layman's terms? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Look at my "The Thing" project: in few words, when video is essentialy correct, apart the color timing, it's possible to "mimic" the colors of another video, leaving the luma intact...

For example, "The Thing" HD-DVD has grain intact, high resolution quality while the colors are off (snow is blue and/or pink, the husky dog is not black&white etc.); the LD colors are way better, but the luma has clipped whites, and it's low resolution; normally, when something like ColourLike is used, it tend to mimic chroma along luma; well, I managed to transfer (the most part of) LD chroma onto the HD-DVD luma, preserving the high resolution and avoiding white clipping - result is not 100% perfect, but it's the best compromise I've seen until now!

nirbateman said:

@ Andrea, yes, you have been mentioned, and not just for name dropping sake :)

Those screenshots actually look pretty promising, there is actual grain in the shots!

Nothing about the soundtrack though, although it is a remix.

The DTS discs will probably still be the best option at the moment.

Thanks for your compliments, I feel a little embarassed... (**,)

Well, now I'm working not on one project, but actually on two... so, I'm a bit busy, but I like Disney feature animation, and if I could do something to preserve the best version of one of these masterworks, I'm... well, I'll be ready - in few weeks - just write here (yes, again, my memory needs some more PetaBytes...) the most important to do - as it seems there will be new, properly restored Blu-Ray releases in the next future...

Also, I could manage to take LD color and BD luma - if ONLY the color timing is wrong in the BD; if there is too much DNR, too few grain etc. the only way to go is to use another source - and if DVD is better than LD, I have no problem to use it!

Someone has mentioned me? (^^,)

These site list "Scenes from the original screenplay, including the original ending":

http://www.amazon.com/The-Hidden-Kyle-MacLachlan/dp/0780628586

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/dvd/The-Hidden-Jack-Sholder-Michael-Nouri/724117069797-item.html

while this one said it's not on DVD but only on laserdisc:

http://horrordigital.com/viewarticle.php?commentid=280&op=nextnewest

Well, at the end that was only a screenplay, so I must confuse another movie ending with this one...

Yesterday I watched "The Hidden"; last time I've watched it was more than twenty years ago... but I'm almost sure the ending was different from the one I've seen yesterday...

Then, after some research, I found that the DVD has the original ending: if someone have this DVD, could please me tell me something about that original ending? I just want to know if I remember well, or just confusing it with another movie end...

During web surfs made to search material for my "The Thing" project, I found this nice video clip made for the "Zombie Zombie" duo track "Driving This Road Until Death Sets You Free": http://vimeo.com/33190500

It's made using G.I. Joe toys in stop motion, and it's amazing! Even if the music is not comparable to the original, I like it too! Besides, the duo made some Carpenter covers...

Lacerated said:

The original US DVD has the standalone audio score.  I can't remember if the enchanced DVD reissue had it.

AFAIK, the isolated score could be listened during the documentary, but I'm not sure about its quality - could you provide it? And it's not present in the same PAL edition, or in the anamorphic reissue.

By the way, I'd like to use the 96KHz/24bit from vinyl, and eventually add the new tracks present in the remastered edition made in 2011 taken from the CD.

DoomBot said:

Do i see yellow i the snow in the last image?

You can see yellowish tracks in the ColourLike too... maybe it's only dirty snow, or the dog pissed there... (^^,)

ilovewaterslides said:

Hey, Andrea! As always, I can provide the French Lossless audio track from my laserdisc if you are interested ;) 

Of course I'm interested! Please send it along with video, even really compressed and at low resolution, because it will be easyier to put audio in sync with video.

Turisu said:

Do the duplicated/missing frames you mention mean that the audio tracks will not sync up to the unaltered HD-DVD?

Of course not. When a frame from LD/DVD is duplicated, the audio will have a small "hole" of few ms (really difficult to notice, as these frames are in the end or at the beginning of a scene, and often there is almost no sound there; when a frame is cut, audio will be cut consequentely - we are always talk about few ms, far less than a second.

I ask because, in the absence of a theatrical reference, I'm not convinced by the color changes (though you've undoubtedly done a fantastic job in matching the LD colors), but I was hoping I'd be able to take the LD audio from this release with and mux with my existing HD-DVD video.

When ready, you could always demux the file and take the soundtracks you like/need... but if you are not convinced about color, take a look at this test clip (17MB, 14mbps, 10sec): SENDSPACE - you could note in HD-DVD snow starts as blue, then becoming white, then pinkish... in my project, it stays white... there are several examples, I admit I posted the worst one, but it gives you an idea... if you still prefer the HD-DVD colors, stick with it! (^^,)

Video Collector said:

Andrea, these are exciting results. The images look perfect, and I am hoping the results are perfect in motion as well. I am looking forward to seeing the finished project. I will be looking very hard for instances where the chroma doesn't line up properly, but I am hoping the process yields perfect results.

Coupling the Luma and Chroma from different sources has always been a fascinating concept.

Thank you very much! I'm working on this project because I love this movie, and I'm happy someone else like you will enjoy it too!

The result is not perfect, but it's the best compromise I could think of, until someone could provide a faithful color reference.

I decided to use the HD-DVD original video for opening and closing credits - as there is almost no color correction to do, while for the whole movie I'll use HD-DVD luma with ColourMatch chroma taken from the LD - apart the LD side end and side begins, that have fade out/fade in; for these two scenes, I'll take chroma from DVD, slightly adjusted (only a bit more contrast) to be alike the LD.

Regarding audio soundtracks: I hope ilovewaterslides will send me the french PCM soundtrack soon, so I could work with it and release the project ASAP - the video processing is running right now!

Last "thing": what about if I use all the songs from the Morricone and/or new edition OST and build up a sort of isolated score? It will be interesting to have some hints by a "The Thing" aficionados to know where I must put each song, as some are in the movies, but a lot are not! And, in between tracks, should I leave silence, or add actual movie sountrack?

UPDATE:

Today I captured the PAL UK laserdisc; colors are better than DVD, even if they are a bit dull. Despite the fact that some dozen frames are missing from DVD and LD compared to HD-DVD, in few cases HD-DVD is missing some frames...

I decided to use HD-DVD for frame reference, cutting no frame from it; DVD is used in the two scenes when LD side is fading out and the next side is fading in; for the rest of the movie, the LD is used as color reference - the missing frames are replaced with duplicate ones, to mantain the color reference intact, and it worked.

ColourLikeFBF is good, but as the LD has clipped whites, it work not optimally every time... As my ColourMatch gives the same results, but seems faster, and give me no problems, I opted to use it for chroma, while the HD-DVD is used for luma; here you are some comparison screenshots:

in these two images, it' easy to note the clipped whites in the flames...

Note the right details inside the red circles - there are less info in the LD because contrast was set too high. I know differences are not astounding, but now that I know there are there, I'd like to see more details, even if the image has less contrast and is darker.

Opinions?

Yes, I definitely want to include the DTS-HD MA 5.1, but "as is", not only the core... and, as Jonno and The Aluminum Falcon says, it will be not the default soundtrack, as this is not the original one, but a modern remix; it's a valuable "thing" though!

FremenDar007 said:

Nice Andrea! Of course you'll be leaving the film grain in. What about the lossless DTS-HD MA 5.1 track from the Blu-ray? I could rip it for you if need be. How about a version which is English only? Meaning the English tracks including lossless, being first choice, and English SDH subtitles.

You're more than welcome to send me the lossless DTS-HD MA 5.1!!! Even if has a modern remix, it is a good alternative to have in a preservation.

About english only: as I'm italian, I like to hear movies in my language and, as the italian soundtrack for "The Thing" is only DD 2.0, a mere 150MB (as the french soundtrack, and the spanish is mono and only 75MB) I think there is no problems to add them, don't you think?

At the contrary, as there is a lot of space left to fill a BD25, other language soundtracks with better quality are welcome.

For subtitles: if someone would like to provide .srt subtitles... I've no time now to search them! I like to include english, english SDH, italian, french, german and spanish, and commentary english and other languages if/when available.

You_Too said:

Yeah, unfortunately, ColourLike seems to have troubles handling scenes with crushed blacks or whites.

Not only ColourLike... my script called ColourMatch, despite the name, is not using ColourLike or g.force RGBMatch, but behaves in the same manner... RGBMatch at the contrary have not problems with the second scene, limiting to imitate the BD colors, but is not very good in matching colors...

So, I definitely use the DVD upscale for the second scene (very few seconds, maybe three or four if not less) - again, download the test clip and check.

I'll check if DVD chroma lay (almost) perfectly on the BD chroma for the first scene - too long to fool a trained eye of our forum members... (^^,)

Time to sleep!

Tested. Good results, but not always.

Still got problems with your script, every now and then, don't know why...

I changed my ColourMatch script yesterday; now that I tested your script, ColourMatch and ColourLikeFBD results are the same (in good and bad scenes...) but it actually works in every frame in my PC, so I think I'll stick with it - I'll post some screenshots soon.

UPDATE:

The Aluminum Falcon provided the HD-DVD video, so now I must only capture the PAL laserdisc, mesh it up with the DVD to obtain more chroma resolution, and I'll test AntcuFaalb's ColourLikeFBF avisynth script to match the LD/DVD chroma to HDDVD luma; I've watched briefly the "crime scenes", and the colors are almost the same, but video quality is... wow... exceptional, thinking that is a 1982 movie!!!

I'm excited, I can't wait to do start the preservation, but I should... hope to do it on Sunday, keep your eyes open!

You know what? Keeping posting in threads like this is always "food for thought", and I learn (or correct) techniques, methods or scripts every time - not counting the constructive comments, everytime well accepted. Thanks to all the forum members!

You_Too, thanks for your help - AntcuFaalb, thanks for your script.

Now it seems to work, and the results are the same of the image You_Too posted. But, as I have the DVD, I could test every scene I'd like to... so, what about these?

While the first result is bad, the second is awful and unusable... What do you all think I should do for these scenes? It will be better to use the BD, the upscaled DVD (I've done it for the second scene, check out the last test clip some posts before - or (the best option to me) - to see if the DVD chroma lies perfectly (or almost) onto the BD luma?

SilverWook said:

Also worth mentioning is the lesser known Sony SDP E800. It's an external Dolby Digital surround decoder that also happens to have an RF Demodulator built in, practically an unadvertised feature.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-SDP-E800-Dolby-Digital-Surround-Processor-/330963550736?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item4d0ef70210

At that price? Grab it. NOW!