As I met your a,b,c question, here you are the size of the Definitive Collection (US): 325mm x 325mm x 75mm (±1mm).
If you need the size of the Japanese Definitive Collection (second edition, without book but with two more discs) let me know.
I just updated first post: when the .m2ts file will be ready I'll post here immediately. (the video conversion will be finished tomorrow evening...)
ATTENTION: this project is superseded now; please go to the new 2.0 thread!
the following description is retained to show differences between the two versions.
,^…^, presents the [OUT ruLes] project
Original Unaltered Trilogy restored using Laserdisc editions
Project mission: restore the Original Unaltered Trilogy using audio and video from various Laserdisc editions.
Video sources: analog video captured directly from Laserdiscs; other analog sources are admitted (VHS, CED, VHD, Beta etc.) only if the material is not present on the Laserdisc format.
Audio sources: analog audio and uncompressed PCM captured directly from Laserdiscs; other analog sources are admitted (like vynil) only if the material is not present on the Laserdisc format.
Subtitles sources: to be decided; Project Threepio seems the logical way.
Project prohibition: use DVD, BD, HDTV or other audio or video from any digital sources.
Episode IV - Star Wars: A New Hope
Source Material
Video: THX PAL laserdiscs
Audio: THX PAL laserdiscs
Star Wars - Coffret Trilogie - English (with French subtitles OOP)
Star Wars - La Guerre des Etoiles - French (with English crawl subtitled)
Star Wars - Krieg der Sterne - German (with German crawl)
Star Wars - La Guerra de las Galaxias - Spanish (with English crawl narrated)
Star Wars - Guerre Stellari - VHS Italian
Subtitles: to be decided
Captures and setup info
Hardware:
Software:
Settings:
**Project Status: DONE
**
Captures: all done
Video treatment: all laserdisc video captures were time and space aligned, then with AviSynth median and average scripts were overlayed to eliminate some noise and put out unwanted video parts (as burned subtitles); little noise reduction and sharpen; NO COLOR CORRECTION at all! Upconverting from PAL 720x576 4:3 to 1280x720 16:9. No “white magic” treatment.
Audio treatment: all digital and analog audio are Dolby Surround encoded; converted to 6 channel WAVs and then to 5.1 Dolby Digital AC3 files.
Subtitles: all done
Conversion from 25p to 23.976p: done
Final formats: .m2ts file@ 720p/23.976fps with five audio tracks and ten subtitles (five forced and five full)
It is available on myspleen.
**To do ASAP
**
done!
To do later
If someone read until here, he/she must really interested, so here you are some pictures (GOUT Vs. OUT ruLes):
(same pictures, only on two different hosting services).
Self comments: I know there are many better quality projects around, but all are made using digital altered trilogies, “despecialized”… kudos to all the project maker, for their really good job and long hard work!
I’m not so good as they are, and also my spare time is limited; also, the overall video quality of my project is lower than all the HD projects; but there are some positive things: more image quality coherence (because the video sources are all the same); better colors than GOUT - despite the fact I made NO COLOR CORRECTION (and I’d like to leave it as is, to not lose further quality); better audio quality than GOUT; a certain video “analogness” - read: poor quality 😉
The MiniDisc recorder could be used as stand-alone ADC (analog to digital converter); the digital output should be uncompressed 32, 44.1 or 48 KHz at 20bit... but I must test it to be sure.
Never used VirtualVCR, as my capture card is not supported. Hope VDub has really not dropped any frame, as it would be really tough to scan all frames searching the eventual missing frame!
If someone is interested, I found some DVD recording of 1997 SE trilogy I made some years ago, originally broadcasted by Rai 3 (one of the italian national channel) in italian language; the video quality is really low - not thanks to my old DVD recorder... - the aspect ratio is about 2:1 so unusable for any restoration; but maybe someone wants to use the opening crawls and end credits in italian!
I extracted the audio soundtrack with TSMuxer, the resulting files are AC3 2.0 48khz 384kbps. I know the source isn't the best available, but at least there are italian soundtracks available for the 1997 SE - if someone want to add these ones, they are ready to use, just the two ROTJ files need to be joined.
In the near future I'll capture the italian 1997 SE VHS version, HiFi stereo, with both my two good S-VHS video recorder - a Panasonic and a JVC (altought without TBC, I think the hifi audio will play well), then I'll choose the best result; I thought to pass the audio from the VCR to my Sony MiniDisc recorder (because it has a really good A/D converter - 20 bit delta-sigma ADC - that I think is really superior to the simple 16 bit audio card of my PC) then feed its digital out to my PC. Is there something like AviSynth median I could use for audio?
I'm happy I decided to drop DScaler and instead use VDub to capture some laserdiscs - at the end, I captured 1 hour with NO frames dropped - just disable the preview... my video experience is slowly growing!
Anthony,
I know that Runco LJR-II was based onto Panasonic LX-900... as about the differences, I strongly suspect they were more than minor!
So, the Panasonic MUST be a good player, at least for its transport... surely it is one of the few smear-free laserdisc player around, but as I haven't seen any in person, I could not say it is "only" good or really good...
So, I'm awaiting your tests - and complete review - about your brand "old" Panasonic LX-900!
Anthony, you are right, the value was 456 but I wrote 454 - my mistake! And for my previous post, I didn't get that you was talking about theory... I was SURE you were asking me to REALLY upscale the picture to 768! Sorry! Still friends?
I appreciated also your explanation, but I love simple things...
So, if I need to resize any PAL picture (with an AR higher than 1:78) from 4:3 to 16:9, I just resize at 768 pixel height and crop 96 pixels from top and 96 pixels from bottom. Is that easy! ;-)
Maybe AviSynth takes some time more to resize my way, but I have no "difficult" math to remember, and find the exact crop needed... do you agree?
Still not sure to do the anamorphic conversion... "the less resize, the better", my grampa used to say :) but maybe he was wrong, he said that long time ago...
At the end, someone else has noted that the 1997 SE aspect ratio was NOT 2.35:1? Or it is, and only the german version is 2.24:1?
Anthony, thanks for all the info and tips.
But, my captures will never need IVTC as they are PAL, and if I'll resize to anamorphic, it will be PAL... or, if NTSC, I'll just change the framerate from 25 to 23,976 - thought also about this eventual change to use NTSC audio soundtracks and come back to the original film framerate - almost, as film is 24fps.
About DVD resolution, if I capture at 720 then crop at 704 (also if just 2 pixels are black on the sides it doesn't matter), this is a resolution accepted by the DVD standard, and I don't need to resize in the horizontal direction... at least, avoiding the horizontal resize will result in less interpolation, and this is good.
So, following my idea:
At the end, I have a 704x576 25p 16/9, ready for DVD, with only vertical resize; if I want AVCHD, I could skip step 2 and obtain at the end 720x576 25p 16/9, with 8 pixels per side, without horizontal resize, OR add horizontal resize to setp 3. The original picture, without black borders, if 2.35:1 is 326 pixels high, then after the conversion to anamorphic will be 434 pixels - PAL, of course.
...but there is a problem: I tested some 1997 SE captures - the german edition - and the picture is 342 pixels high - so not 2.35:1... then, what it is best to do? Resize at the correct ratio of 2.35:1 and obtain a picture 434 pixels high, or retain the original AR and obtain a picture 454 pixels high?
About MflowFPS: don't know this script, I'll try it. I add that, as I remember, the luma of captures of the three THX trilogies (spanish, german, french) were identical, while the chroma were different... may I could only compare luma, but the dropouts are colored, so... how to approach this task?
OK, other questions later, maybe about Huffyhuv YVY2 and Lagarigh YV12...
Troyig88 said:
I am sorry if I missed it but which laser disc are you going to capture?
All of them? ;-) No, I'm joking (and time/hd space is limited, too!)
You are right, I posted them into another thread:
AntCu, thanks for the fast answers!
As my computer is "only" an old 1,86GHz Core 2 Duo, I think Huffyuv is the best codec to use with it, but I'm open to Lagarith - I know it compress more, must do some tests, when the new primary HD will be installed.
Using Huffyuv, the color space will be YUY2, as Huffyuv's default color space is YCbCr and laserdisc's is YUV, so all of them are 4:2:2.
But, why resize at 768x576 if I plan to do DVD or AVCHD?!? I know its PAR is 1:1, but it is off standard...
By the way, crop and resize in one instance, or crop first and resize after, operating with a codec like Huffyuv, is the same, as the codec is lossless... isn't that right?
About distribution: I just finished to calculate the size taken for each trilogy, and if my calculation is right it will be about 240GB using Huffyhuv!!! With my poor ADSL it will take forever to upload the files! Also, with "only" 1TB of hard disk dedicated space, I could capture (if I'm lucky) at best four trilogies... maybe it's better to capture one episode at time - so I could store up to 12 captures - not that I need all of them, but considering versions, copies and laserdiscs, I think I could reach 9 captures easily... then, after that, I could "mix" them and store as long term only the result. And restart with the next episode!
For your median script: I'll test it after the first captures are done. But did you tried the TOOT script? Yes, I know I must align spatially and temporally the captures, I've done it before - with A LOT of work, if I remember well ;-)
...using the TOOT script, the results were good.. but I used only three captures. With more, like nine captures, I could TOOT 1,2,3 then TOOT 4,5,6 then TOOT 7,8,9 and finally TOOT the results... at the end, the picture will be as clean as the best laserdisc picture could be, dropouts free!
I used here TOOT as example, but I'm open to use another script, like yours. If someone else has good experience with multiple captures, please post your script!
Antcu, can I count on your help if (when) needed, for what concerns AviSynth and/or VirtualDub scripts and settings?
It seems there is some kind of interest about the fact of capturing laserdisc contents, also if the same titles were used previously for other projects; indeed, the fact that different versions, copies, and players could be mixed to obtain the cleanest laserdisc capture ever produced until now, is really exciting!
So, here I am: I’m ready at last! The laserdisc players are here, as the SW laserdisc collection; there is a brand new 1TB HD that will be dedicated exclusively to this task, and really soon, a new internal HD will be installed with a clean o.s. - virus-free and with only the necessary programs, nothing more.
It’s time to start to capture, but, as I want to start right from the very beginning, I’m here (again) to ask your help - as usual 😉
I read and read and read this forum and others, and I learn a lot, any day, but there are still some things I’m not sure… so, without further ado, let’s start the thread!
Horizontal resolution:
At first, I thought to use the max resolution available to capture the PAL LDs, so 768x576 seemed a good idea (and the PAR is 1:1)… but, after cropping black sides, the picture resulted about 748x576, and for DVD or AVCHD (standard definition) I must use some kind of resize, and lose some quality… well, then I thought: “why can’t I capture at, for example, 740x576? After cropping 20 pixels, the result picture would be 720x576, perfect!”… the idea, in practice works, but is WRONG!
I discovered (after reading A LOT on the net) than ANY capture device captures at FIXED RESOLUTION, and then resize! So, it is futile to use any other resolution but the only one which my card uses. For my card, whose chipset is Philips SAA713x, I know this horizontal resolution is 720 (as stated on the official Philips documentation) but reading more, as it sample at 27MHz, 2x oversample, so 13,5MHz, the resolution is 702…
So, what is the REAL resolution my card captures? I think 720, as stated in the official document; I tested it, and about 8/10 pixels per side are black (due to overscan, I presume). If I crop, then the result is 704, good for DVD, not compatible with AVCHD… I could do two versions, one at 720x576 (with some black borders at the sides) for AVCHD, and the other at 704x576 (full horizontal pictures without borders at sides) for DVD. What do you think?
Resize, upscale and so on:
Well, let’s assume now the captured video is 720x576 25p (yes, now the deinterlaced problem is solved, and the video is progressive). This is the full picture with black borders top and bottom, and it’s aspect ratio is 4:3. Really good for 4:3 analog tv sets… but all the digital displays will resize the picture anyway…
So, it is REALLY necessary to resize the picture to make the aspect ratio 16:9 compatible? Many restorations have done this resize, but I think is not so fundamental, as also the 720x576 16:9 picture will be resized by the display…
Then now someone could argue that a proper done conversion from 4:3 to 16:9 is ever better than a real time resize done by the display… it could be true, but is also true that this very display will resize in any case, so there will be two upscale (first from 4:3 to 16:9, then from 720x576 to other resolutions like 1366x768 and 1920x1080)…
Then another idea come to my mind: why don’t resize the original picture 2.5x? The resulted video will be 1920x1440 4:3, cropped at 1920x1080 16:9; using a very good AviSynth scaler, and a bitrate of about 8mbps, an AVCHD will have a quite good image, THE SAME for any hd display, not depending on the display internal scaler… but I thought also: it’s better to have the original video 720x576 using 8mbps and let the display upscale, or 1920x1080 using 8mbps and not further upscaling? Or, just convert from 4:3 to 16:9? At least, in this case my old 16:9 analog tv set will display more lines than my old 4:3 analog tv set… 😉
…maybe the idea of resizing is not so good - also if my latest tests with Super Resolution of Video Enhancer (which uses spatial and temporal interpolation) is quite good, as the upscaled video looks like with some tiny particulars not so clear when seen at original size - but this is really subjective, and maybe only my imagination!
At the end, a simple conversion from 4:3 to 16:9 using the best AviSynth script will be the optimal, final solution. Or not?!? What are your opinions?
Cleaning the video:
After all the negative comments of my so-called whitemagic AviSynth script, I decided to <span style=“text-decoration: underline;”>not use it</span> to clean the captured video. But some sort of cleaning is surely necessary, as the laserdisc (which I LOVE), despite the fact that was the best consumer analog standard definition video format, it’s still analog composite video…
What it MUST be used is a script which takes comparison of different captures, and clean drop outs and other glitches like that. Maybe median could be good, but I used TOOT and the results seemed better to me. Any other good method?
Then, some denoise, and, if necessary (with the “pyramid” set for sure) color correction. Anything else? And, when applying those ones? After the (eventual) resize, or before?
The first thing - horizontal resolution - is the most urgent, as if I use the wrong one, I must capture again… and with so many hours, sides, discs, versions, LD players… I couldn’t think about that!
The others could wait, as they will be applied after the capture.
Any eventual other hints and comments are welcome. Thanks in advance to all of you!
Jetrell Fo said:
I'm not sure my query came out right. The DVD was "zoomed", if I remember correctly, and they fixed it with the bluray release. Do the LD and the Bluray match when it comes to the "zoom" issue the DVD had?
:)
The problem is, as my Blu Ray box set is still BRAND NEW, intact, unopened, as came out from the factory, I haven't seen yet so I could not answer it... about DVD, I'll check soon!
Thanks, I get the point, you are both right. Now I try to explain what I thought.
The problem was: if the video is interlaced, composed by two fields for each frame, 50 fields per second, then I must obtain a 720x288 50fps file... instead, I obtain a 720x576 25fps, THEN VirtualDub MUST do some kind of deinterlace... infact, I scan the captured video frame by frame searching for some kind of interlace artifacts, and because I didn't find any, I thought I was right (VirtualDub do some deinterlace).
After reading your comments, I rethought about the film and video difference, so I wanted to make another test... this is the result I wanted to see before:
So VirtualDub just take the odd lines from a field, then the even lines from the other, and form a complete frame without any deinterlace! Here the interlace shows up because this is a video clip - shot interlaced, not progressive... I was wrong because I didn't find any frame like this in the Star Wars captured video, just because as film originating material, the capture results in perfect progressive video!!!
I solved the problem, and I'm starting to remember I've done the same more than one year before, just I forgot... I told you, I'm going TOO old! ;-)
Thanks you Moth3r, thank you OmegaMattman!
Jetrell Fo said:
I would be interested in seeing this happen when you're ready to give it a go. Maybe it could be used alongside Ady's Theatrical Reconstruction so the DTS audio could be added to the 5.1 AC3 that he used for it.
Although, I have this question....how does the LD cropping match up with the Bluray? I know they fixed the issue and it is now the original theatrical cropping. If they all match we might be able to come up with one really nice video presentation for this.
:)
About the BD question, I'm a little embarassed now... ehm... because my own BD Exalogy is still srinkwrapped!!! ;-)
This is my defect... when I buy brand new DVDs or BDs, I always open them only when I watch the first time, never (as my friends do) at the very moment I'm home after I bought them!
Now that I solved the horizontal resolution problem - I'll capture at 720 and crop at 704 to be compatible with DVD format without loosing any vertical lines - the main problem is the deinterlace thing... I posted it in the right section, but because there is less "traffic" there than here, maybe someone here could help.
Here you are the link to the thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/How-to-capture-PAL-video-with-VirtualDub-as-interlaced/topic/14740/
When solved, I'll start immediately some test captures, post results here, and when the video quality will receive a formal forum "green light" I'll start to capture everything!
My hope is that few scenes here and there from my captures will be useful to improve some project.
Midnight, time to sleep, I'm getting TOO old... ;-)
When my capture settings problems will be solved, I'll start capture a lot!
Thought to do the following first (all PAL):
OUT "Pyramid" (NO DVNR, white clipping and black crushing)
OUT THX French, French sub, German, Spanish (fewer DVNR and smear problems than NTSC DC)
1997 SE THX French, German, UK
All of them with different LD players, using (if present) also different copies; then TOOT them to get rid of dropouts and residual noise.
After them, The Phantom Menace - "only" two copies, but with so many players, including the HLD-X9, I think the capture will be good enough.
Maybe later also the NTSC DC US and JAP, plus the Collector's Edtion and "Faces", to be TOOTed too.
Stay tuned on this thread for the latest news!
The problem is not the result - as I wrote, I think is quite good - but the method... I mean, what kind of deinterlacing method VirtualDub uses as default? And if I want to try another one, how could is possible to record interlaced captured video?
At the end if I decide to make DVDs or AVCHDs, as it is possible to make them interlaced, how could I'll make them interlaced if the captured video is deinterlaced?!?
What I'd like to know: is there any "stupid bob" deinterlacer to use with VirtualDub, that record the captured video as the original material - 720x288 at 50fps - so I could use whatever deinterlacing method - in VirtualDub itself or AviSynth? Or, if I use any kind of deinterlacing filter WHEN I capture the video, the result will be the same?
These are important questions, as I want to capture literally hundred hours of video (using different versions, discs, players) and I must start right... I can't think to redo everything at the end because I captured with wrong settings!
By the way, my capture card is an Asus BDA (based on the Philips SAA713x chipset) and VirtualDub uses it via DirectShow.
After one year away from this forum - and after I lost all my previous test captures - I decided to work again on my project (more about it later, when this problem will be solved).
But I discovered that, apart the captures, maybe I lost also my memory... infact, I cannot remember how to capture PAL video from my laserdisc with VirtualDub, and store it as interlaced...
I mean, I tried every possible setting on VirtulDub, read any guide here and there, but still haven't found how to do it! Infact, if I capture PAL video, the resulting file is everytime 720x576 at 25fps; so VirtualDub make a deinterlace (seems blending to me, don't know for sure).
It's true that the result is not bad, at the contrary sometimes is really good... but I'd like to record interlaced, and then, if I WANT TO, deinterlace choosing from different deinterlacing method.
Maybe I have to capture with the filter chain enabled, and use a deinterlace filter... I tested simple bob, and obtained a 720x288 50fps file, but too many fields are lost. Then I thought to use weave, but haven't found a weave filter... I have a doubt that VirtualDub CAN'T capture interlaced video!
Please help me, I'm lost... for the last week, many hours any night, I tried to solve this problem, with no success... I need to find the solution before starting all the capture tasks!
Thanks to all in advance.
The ultimate laserdisc player is the Pioneer HLD-X0; it's the best laserdisc player ever produced, period. But quite impossible to find, and really really expensive.
Second, very close and still expensive (around half price of the X0) is the Pioneer HLD-X9 - I have one, I could assure the video quality is astonishing!
Third (IMHO) could be the Sony HIL-C1 (and its clone Panasonic LX-HD10), then fourth the Sony HIL-C2EX (and its clone Panasonic LX-HD20 - I own this one too).
All these laserdisc players are MUSE & NTSC compatible, with red laser (like DVD) and not the usual infrared laser you can find in the normal ld players; this feature help to read less-than-perfect or rotted discs, and improve the video quality of well mastered ones.
After these hi-end players, there are other very good players... first of all, avoid all the Sony ld players (apart the MUSE) not because their video quality is low, but because they are really unreliable.
The best are from Pioneer; from top quality down: CLD-97, CLD-99, CLD-79, CLD-59. The industrial players are quite good too: LD-8000, LD-6000.
Also, I love Runco LJRIII as this is the only THX laserdisc player ever produced. The Panasonic LX-900 and LX-1000 are good.
If you need PAL players, I sadly tell you that the best PAL laserdisc players were at best on par with mediocre NTSC ones... by the way, here you are the best models (again, IMHO): Pioneer CLD-D925 and CLD-2950, LD-V4300D; the Philips LD-WS600 is the best of its brand.
You don't need a separate TBC because every ld player has one built-in; hardware processor could be useful but don't know if they are still SO useful today... at the end, when the analog signal is captured, it become digital, and so you could do any processing you want in the digital domain.
For the software, maybe all you need is VirtualDub and AviSynth - for info about these ones, please ask to someone more expert here in the forum, as I'm still "fighting" with them... ;-)
Hope this will help you!
Can you suggest the scene you think has the worst DVNR-smear? Episode and rough minutes if possible. So I can capture it and you'll check it.
Made further captures... now I tweaked a bit DScaler; this time I used overlay, default settings - the brighter band seems gone now
Here you are the raw capture clip:
YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eYB6h6bYl0
Uncompressed (54MB)
http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=gaee7c86600ad6b4b159104d1058e51a9210e2e
It seems that smearing is not present, but a comment from a more experience user is highly appreciated.
I've done capture tests "on the fly"... I used one of my Pioneer CLD-D925 (probably the most faulty) and the 1997SE PAL Gold german laserdisc box set.
Up is the capture taken used DScaler, 768x576, only touched the brighness; down is taken with VirtualDub, 720x576, no control touched. Captured clips then taken both on VDub, frames copied on paint, saved - only cropped vertically to get rid of the black bars.
I took two of the frames MSycamore used as comparison in some of his comments: it seems VDub captures better than DScaler, but Dscaler could capture up to 1024x576 and this feature could be useful in some cases; beside that, DScaler put a bright band on the left part of the image (about 10%) that is really visible with higher brightness, less in these two captures - don't know how to avoid it...
This german PAL CD-Video has some:
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/51266/CDV-901-001/DIE-video-CD-%281988%29
This CD-Video (for whom doesn't know it, this format is a CD sized analog videodisc, compatible with many laserdisc players, that contains max 6 minutes of analog audio and video, and 20 minutes of digital audio) is PAL; it was a demo disc manufactured in UK by PDO and distributed freely with a german magazine - don't know which one, but if I recall correctly it was a car magazine - here you are the link to its LDDB page:
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/51266/CDV-901-001/DIE-video-CD-%281988%29
Despite the fact the video is awful due to laser rot, I think it can still be used as calibration tool. If you can send me the AVS script, I'll do tests with it and post results here.
Thanks in advance.
Jetrell Fo said:
You want to know what I think might be cool for this?
Finding 5 different people that can each do 1 capture of a specified version of the 1997 SE laserdiscs and then find 1 person willing to take all 5 separate captures to make 1 great reference out of them.
It may sound crazy....I just wanted to think out loud.
:)
What about 1 person that can capture three different PAL 1997 SE laserdisc with different laserdisc players (making for example 3x3 or 3x4 captures) and then take the best out of them?
Highligth: just bought one 1TB hard disk to use only for Star Wars projects...
Jetrell Fo said:
Maybe TPM could be updated to something of higher quality than Xvid? I'd certainly like to see a theatrical Bluray sized one for the DTS project. I have a Bluray player for my home but don't have a BD drive for the PC.
I wonder how a Muse capture of it would look?
I could do the laserdisc capture of TPM Japanese laserdisc using my two own copies, the Pioneer HLD-X9 and another high quality player (like Panasonic LX-HD20 MUSE) and/or another normal quality player (Pioneer CLD-D925 and LD-V4300D); then make some use of AviSynth median or TOOT script to blend the captures.
If there is someone interested, please post your comments here.
Thanks.