silverwheel

Harmy said:

Well, a parody is something completely, absolutely different from a fan edit.

I sort of corned myself into an anti-fanedits position, I'm not against fanedits, not by a long shot. I'm just trying to explain why I don't think it's good to use a fanedit to introduce someone to a film in most cases.

Yeah, the parody part was straying off-course a bit.

Most fanedits are terrible ways of introducing a film.  Take, for example, the fanedit of Heat made by some bozo who thinks the film would work better without all that pesky character depth.  Most fanedits are junk, period.  But all can be instructive in how the craft of editing can make or break a film.

CatBus said:

EDIT: This means that IMO fan edits are EXACTLY the same as the Special Editions, by every moral measure except fraud.

Considering that Lucas didn't direct ESB or ROTJ, I would argue that those Special Editions are rather morally questionable, since he's screwing around with them at his leisure, and then telling us in the end credits that they were directed by Irvin Kershner or Richard Marquand.  No, these are not the films made by those people.  

If you put a work out in the public space, it will be parroted, parodied, sampled, remixed, etc.  If you're lucky, because that means it has meaning to someone else.  As long as it's not some sort of attempt to fraudulently pass something off as the original, I've got no problem there.  You can even parody it yourself twenty years later, just don't pass it off as the original.

You raise a good point - I've lost count of the number of pop-culture items that have been introduced to me via parody (particularly from the Simpsons) and none have tainted or ruined my eventual experience of the real thing.  

This is about an artist's moral right to not have his/her work tampered with. 

I agree with you in the philosophical sense, but in film, the process (today, anyway) is tilted so that the artist is frequently powerless, for various reasons.  I mentioned Superman II because it shows that the "official products" that we receive have quite often tampered with the artist's work to an unacceptable degree, and to show that there are some instances where a fanedit can be the only way of restoring a creative vision.  

This whole debate makes no sense to me, because it assumes that the director is the one in charge of the final product.  In the case of Star Wars, that's accurate.  But look at the Superman movies: clearly, the producers ran the show on those, and basically had total creative control once they fired Richard Donner.  Almost all of the things that happened to Superman II after Donner's firing - jettisoning all the Marlon Brando scenes, reshooting footage to play up the comedic angles, inserting stupid gags in the climactic fight - were ordered by the producers, not the replacement director.  So what's the moral imperative of watching the theatrical Superman II first, since it bears little resemblance to the creative vision of the director?

I mention Superman II because it's the perfect example of a creative vision being torn to shreds by bean-counters.  That the film even works at all is a testament to how strong the material really was.  But the sad reality is that there is no "definitive" version of Superman II.  Instead, we have two competing, incomplete documents, with two different directors editing and revising each other's footage.  The Donner Cut, especially, treats Lester's footage like the fanedits treat SW prequel footage - by tiptoeing around the goofy crap and trying to isolate the dramatic core.  But it's not all in Donner's favor - there are many moments when Lester's editing, or reshoots, or usage of different takes, works quite a bit better.  The ideal "final cut" would be a savvier blend of the different footage, without regard to director's egos, producer's insecurities, or an unwillingness to pay certain actors.  But this "final cut" has not been provided - who will provide it, if not the fanedits?  (please note that I have yet to encounter a fanedit that actually does a good job of this, but I know it is possible).  

danaan said:

So, Luke can't win by fighting, but he also can't avoid the fight! That's a very precise moral dilemma (which the PT, btw, ruins), and one that, in my opinion, separates SW from just about all other popculture movies of this general genre. In those, it's rather all about vigilante style justice. In SW, it's your actions that define you as good or evil, not which badge or uniform you happen to wear.

No kidding!  The tension from that climax comes from knowing that *how* he fights the battle will determine whether he "wins or loses," not whether he lives or dies.  I don't know of any other big movie climax that is designed to be so thoughtful and introspective.  

Mrebo said:

 It just goes to show how easy it is to read what you want into something so jumbled.

No kidding.  I've always thought that GL was probably trying to make a point about how the Jedi's heavy involvement in politics cheapened their code and their mission, but again, one has to dig through a lot of muddled, contradictory claptrap to find that.  

Plus, the TRAGEDY angle in ROTS kind of negates all of the supposed moral ambiguity, since we're supposed to be feeling sad that the good guys are getting killed and the bad guys are winning.  

Yipee!

Apparently he also appeared on camera as a random Imperial Officer in ESB - does anyone know which one?

The disconnect between Young Lucas and Old Lucas is simply ludicrous at this point (and I'm not talking about the waistline & fourth chin).  I simply can't believe that the nerdy guy fascinated by the cerebral aspect of motion pictures (as seen in 'Maker of Films') would turn into such a clueless hack.

When I was young, and listened to Yoda's warnings about the dangers of the dark side (quicker, easier, more seductive), I wondered what kinds of adult lessons he was referring to.  And now I know.  "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" indeed.    

doubleofive said:

Remember this quote?

Initially, it was directed by Anthony Hemingway, and then George Lucas wanted to change some of the tone of it and decided to direct it himself, so we had a few re-shoots

Lucas' idea of tone nowadays makes me really worry for this movie.

 

Bingo!  Remember how George rejected a Frank Darabont-penned script for Indy IV because of its tone?  Red Tails is sounding more and more like Indy IV all the time.  

Well, the OOT is being treated like Apocrypha (or worse) by the church leaders and the Emperor (Lucas).  Once a vibrant part of the faith, now it's viewed as heresy.  Maybe the OOT can hang out with the Gospel of Thomas at the Apocrypha Club.   

What's up with all this dissing on the song?  "Lapti Nek" is a fookin' lovely piece of alien pop.  

Fang Zei said:

Mark my words, people. Lucas is crazy but he ain't dumb. Eventually he'll see the $$$$$ and give us what we want.

Unfortunately, he hasn't taken a serious financial hit because of his recent business practices.  As long as the $ keeps coming in when he says so, the inflated ego can continue.   

generalfrevious said:

And, the purpose of this site is to petition GL to create a proper restoration for the originals, not force others to make their own due to his personal hubris.

If we beat him at his own game, then perhaps he'll be compelled to do something about it.  

ARParr said:

I'm opening a huge can of worms in my head here, but...

Without a doubt, many of my thoughts & feelings about TPM have changed drastically over the last twelve-or-so years.  How I felt about it in the beginning, (vs a couple of years after its release), was completely different from how I feel about that film now.

For many reasons, I hated it for years.  To be sure, it still has its faults, but now I appreciate & like it on a number of levels much more than I ever thought I would.

(Ironically, the film that I seem to hate, out of all 6, is AotC...)

Well, McCallum was a nobody before hooking up with George, and has no career outside of SW, so he'll never truly bite the hand that feeds him...but every now and again he'll say something very candid.  I also liked when he bitched about how long it was taking George to finish the script for AOTC.  If a Smithers-esque yes-man is publicly making these kinds of comments, there must be a lot of people at LFL who are quite tired of George.

I checked the Amazon marketplace, and the pickings are getting quite scarce for the GOUT.  There aren't many sellers for the discs, and the prices have gone way up - $25 bucks a pop is the average even for a used copy.  LFL must really be trying to bury these.  For instance, the Tartakovsky Clone Wars discs have gone out of print as well, but there are many, many used copies available for really cheap - like $5 a pop.  The lack of GOUT offerings tells me that LFL really wants these out of existence. 

Now, they made a boatload of these discs when they came out, so they won't be "gone" for some time, but one might have to get creative to find them.  I tried selling my GOUT copies to the local record store (yes, they still exist, and some of them are doing quite well), and they wouldn't take them because they had way too many on hand.  Truth be told, there's not much value in the discs, and not because of the impending blu-rays.  The high price and slim offerings seems like LFL is manipulating the market to make the remaining copies harder to get.

miker71 said:

I remember reading the novelisation of TPM before seeing it at the cinema and thinking the story played out pretty well. So it's a flawed execution. Poor direction. Did Lucas even leave the video village?

Yeah, I snuck a peek at a comic book version of TPM before the release, and really liked it.  And then I was really underwhelmed by the film, and it wasn't because of spoilers. 

bilditup1 said:

Who tf is San Hill???

Leader of the Banking Clan.  Sometimes, I'm really ashamed that I know things like that.

I certainly resent the GOUT.  It was acceptable on obsolete televisions, and if they came out in the late 90's, I wouldn't have such hatred for them.  But to release these in 2006, when the HD switchover was impending, and with such massive marketing, was total dickery.  The entire reason for those releases was the unaltered films, and they became barely watchable within a year.

It ruined one of the most powerful lessons of the series.  The ghost of Old Anakin symbolized that while he could not undo the many terrible things he had done, he could still make amends and seek forgiveness.  Old Anakin symbolized a wasted lifetime.  Hayden's ghost basically gives the character a free pass.  Plus, Old Anakin fits with what we had just seen in the movie - a tired old man trapped in an iron lung, desperately wanting to get out.  Now, in death, he has his release.  The notion that his ghost can just "go back" makes no sense, literally or metaphorically.

I said this in a different thread, but I'll say it again here.  Does Marquand have an estate that can sue over this?  I'm sure there's no way they could win with copyright laws in their current form, but it would be nice to fight it just on principle.  If I were a lawyer, I'd take the case pro-bono.  Plus, Marquand was British - might there be a British copyright loophole to exploit?

 - Zombie:  I wasn't able to open any of the pictures in a larger setting.  Did anyone else have this problem?

Mavimao said:

Does anyone remember the clonewars cartoon? Not the new cgi one but the hand drawn one that came out before revenge of the sith? THAT is how the PT should have been. It actually showed a likeable anakin, a believable relationship between him and padme, and a story that was engaging and exciting.

Bingo!  I remember when I was a kid, fantasizing about what "the old days" were like in the story, this was what I wanted to see - what Kenobi and Skywalker were like as legendary heroes of the Republic.  And we got precious little of that in the PT.  Plus, Genndy's Clone Wars covers some killer story material.  In particular, the scene where Obi-Wan gives a speech to the council about how they should skip Anakin's trials and straight-up promote him to Jedi Knight...isn't that the heart of the whole prequel story?  It also nicely sets up Anakin's anger over his rank in ROTS - the Council is more than willing to bend the rules to take advantage of his physical talents, but they keep trying to minimize his voice. 

The PT really lacked a good dramatic backbone - ROTS had a bit of it by giving the story a Faust-like framework, which is why the film still retains some power for me despite the flawed screenplay.  The arduous scripting and editing process for SW distilled the story down to its essence, and covered a lot of universal themes with ancient roots.  But when modern-day GL hammers out the script for AOTC right before filming (much like a college student hammering out a term paper on a coffee-bender the night before it's due) there's no way a good dramatic through-line can emerge.  The dialogue seems to get the most flak (which is deserved), but if the scripts had better dramatic tension and sharper themes, the dialogue wouldn't matter as much. 

Personal canon goes as follows:

Prologue - The Phantom Edit

     - as good as the Phantom Edit was, this movie still doesn't seem to flow with the rest of the series.  Basically, it's the SW version of The Hobbit.

Episode I - Attack of the Phantom

     - I was stunned at how well this edit worked - in this incarnation, AOTC is perilously close to being a very good movie. 

Episode II - The Clone Wars vol. 1 & 2

     - easily the best things to result from the prequels, which of course have now been suppressed by Lucas.  For personal canon purposes, chapters 12-16 have been removed from vol. 1, mainly for pacing.  I feel really bad for Genndy Tartakovsky - this was some of his best work, and indicated what the prequel trilogy could have been if George was willing to collaborate like he did in the old days. 

Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

     - one of these days, I will make my own personal edit of the movie.  Some of the fan edits have come close, but none have gotten it "just right" like the Phantom did.  ADigitalMan's edit is the closest to my preferences, though I would take the cuts a little further, and hopefully I can find a way to rescue Vader's idiotic NNNNOOOOOO.

Episode IV - Star Wars

     - for "saga" watching, I prefer Harmy's Despecialized edition.  For "George Lucas Cinema" purposes (i.e. if one did a mini-marathon of THX 1138, American Graffiti and Star Wars), I prefer the Puggo Grande.

Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back

     - Harmy

Episode VI - Return of the Jedi

     - Harmy once again. 

Episodes VII, VIII & IX - The Thrawn Trilogy

captainsolo said:

Hopefully this should kill the revisions.

Hopefully, indeed.