sherlockpotter

That’s fair, I get that. I really do like the sound of cutting the Finn line and the Palpatine line; I’m just confused how Palpatine gets from “Kill the girl” to “My spirit will pass into you.” Would someone be willing to elaborate? Maybe I just missed part of the discussion.

I can appreciate Palpatine “mak[ing] Snoke” if we really want to tie everything together - again, fair point - but I still think the “Every voice” part of the line should be removed.

I like the implication for TFA that Kylo was imploring Vader to speak to him, but he never actually heard anything. My impression of that scene has always been that Kylo is basically praying to his version of a god for guidance, because he feels lost and confused. Kylo has always felt alone, isolated. He feels abandoned by his parents, betrayed by Luke, forsaken by Rey, no one in the First Order actually likes him…everyone to whom he’s tried to reach out has turned their backs on him. Vader is basically all he has left (other than his abusive Master), and is his main motivation for being all Sith-y. I find it more compelling (and sympathetic) if even Darth Vader is giving him the cold shoulder, if all of these people Kylo cares about refuse to condone his descent to the Dark Side. Taking that away, giving him a “friend” in Vader, kind of goes against his whole characterization as a loner, not to mention makes him kind of an idiot to fall for that trick.

The only evidence I’ve heard to the contrary is that he says “Show me again the power of the Dark Side,” but that’s easily interpreted as “Snoke showed me the power of the Dark Side. Please, show it to me again to prove that I’m on the right track.”

The fact that it also avoids the discrepancy between Snoke trying to kill Rey and Palpatine needing her alive is just the icing on the cake.

I really think that Neerb’s idea is the best bet. Not just for Rey Nobody (although it would be significantly easier to cut the Granddaughter stuff out of that version, I think) - it just makes for a stronger film. One of the main failings of TROS is that things just…happen; there’s no investment, no audience engagement, no subtlety. I think it falls flat because (among other reasons) there’s nothing in it to make the audience care. To make them want to watch. If we add a bit of mystery to the plot, it will make the 90 minute fetch quest much more interesting; there will always be that thought in the back of the audience’s mind, “What’s Palpatine’s plan? What’s Kylo Ren going to do to her?”

And I know Hal has said he wants to keep the connection between Snoke and Sheev; I really do disagree. Palpatine’s immediate goals are different than Snoke’s - Palps wants to possess a new Force user, Snokey Boy wants to conquer the galaxy. The Final Order is really just Kylo’s incentive to help deliver Rey to Palpy. From that lens, it makes sense that Snoke and Palpy have no connection. (Maybe there’s even a way to imply that Kylo coming to Exegol is what “awakens” Palpatine? Like, him entering the temple causes the lights to flicker on, and the GLaDOS machine to activate? That would explain why Palpatine has been MIA for the entire trilogy.)

Not to mention narratively, it’s a huge crutch right out of the gate to try and ret-con the previous two movies. Palpy already feels like a last minute addition (because he is). I honestly think it would be stronger to just acknowledge that fact, lean into it, and move on, rather than come up with some convoluted backpedaling for it.

Just my two cents. Obviously I can’t speak for everyone.

Hal 9000 said:

I think the most important thing is establishing D-O has the poop on Exegol. And something that has enough of a kick to be a compelling transition to Ach-To.

First of all, I started cracking up at this; thank you, Hal. (I also started cracking up at your summary of the novelization. God, what a mess.) Secondly, why does it matter that D-O has information on Exegol? They get the navigation coordinates by tracking Rey; it can be implied that she also transmits data on the atmospheric conditions of the planet once she gets there. Honestly, that was my impression the first time I watched the film anyway.

Just to be clear on the current trajectory of Ascendant: the film will be structured around the idea that Palpy has always wanted Rey dead? So we cut out Finn’s and Sheev’s lines about “He’s/I’ve always wanted her alive.” Does Palpy ever offer any explanation why he would change his mind for the finale though? How is that going to play out?

I was actually just thinking about that, Neerb! The way you’ve laid it out, with slowly learning more and more about Palpatine’s and Kylo’s deal throughout the film - that would actually be a great mysterious through line that would help to keep the audience engaged throughout the scavenger hunt. Slowly drip-feeding information and clues to them. I’m trying to think…are there other details that would prevent that idea from working?

There are some great double-meanings there. “She will never be a Jedi” - not because she’ll die, but actually because she’ll fall to the dark side. Maybe it would even be possible to add a line urging Ben to go to Exegol to help Rey? “You know what he’ll do. You have to help her.”

The one thing though, is that we would absolutely have to nix the “Every voice you have ever heard inside your head” line. Not to drag that debate back up from a few days ago, but Snoke was fully prepared to kill Rey. Palpatine wants her alive. They cannot be working towards the same goal, let alone be functionally the same person.

This is more subjective, but I would still like to try toning down Palpy’s monologue about “She ignites her blade, she prepares to swing…” blah blah blah. Sort of how I did it in my edit, focus more on Rey’s past Dark Side leanings. It pivots the moment away from Palpy and back onto our protagonist, it connects to the previous films in an “It was all leading to this” sort of way, it adds more nuance and uncertainty to the moment, and it also avoids copying The Last Jedi yet again?? Seriously J.J.! Stop it!

You did a good job syncing the “You will” line, I thought! I like it. It still kind of has the same issue as before, where the central conflict seems to be about Palpatine wanting her to take over for/as him - so the finale of the trilogy still becomes about Palpy rather than about Rey - and the possession stuff that’s inevitably coming still clashes with the previous “Kill Rey” scenes; but I think you’ve done a good job of toning it all down and making it less offensive.

Yours is good in a “How can we dull the blow” kind of way, whereas mine is more of a “Let’s completely redo the sequence and see if it can be made better.” I still admittedly think mine works better for the story and the larger themes ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ); but mine would definitely be a tougher nut to crack.

That was a concern of mine as well. So much of the dialogue is just meandering nonsense though. Given the breakneck pace of the rest of the film, maybe the pacing here won’t feel too different? lol

Maybe some more stuff could be added back in? I was playing around with “You want me to hate…but I won’t.” But that felt even more whiplash-y given that she came to Exegol to kill the guy. Granted, that was the case in the J.J. cut too, so…

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that the full version wouldn’t feel as rushed and disjointed, as it would be padded out by the space battle sequences.

The hopefully implied sentiment is that “She won’t,” as Palpatine says, “Kill him with her hatred, and thereby ascend [to the Dark Side].” She wants to stop him as a Jedi, not as a Sith.

Hopefully being the key word here.

I’ve been tinkering with the ending to address a few different issues. As Hal pointed out, it’s very disconcerting (to some of us) that Palpatine tells Kylo to “Kill the girl,” but then hinges his entire plan on getting “his granddaughter” to Exegol alive. In my edit, Palpy doesn’t claim to have wanted this all along; rather, he uses the opportunity to try and tempt Rey into killing him, thereby causing her to fall to the Dark Side. (Like how he told Luke to “Take your Jedi weapon. Strike me down.”) This has, in my opinion, a number of additional benefits, aside from cleaning up the primary storytelling inconsistencies:

• It helps to tie elements from across the Sequels together - namely some instances in the previous films where it felt like Rey was being tempted by the Dark Side. In this film, she literally tells Darth Sidious himself “You want me to hate but I won’t.” Cool. Where exactly is the conflict? The character buildup? And what does J.J.'s idea of “Rey being literally possessed by Palpatine’s soul” have to do with the rest of the saga?
• It means that Palpatine isn’t just “an evil thing to beat.” He’s instead used as a reflection of Rey’s own inner darkness. This helps to make the stakes more personal, and therefore more uncertain for first time viewers - it feels like she may honestly turn. Additionally, this means the scene is entirely about Rey now, and not about whatever possession plot Palpy came up with while he was snoozing for the past 30 years.
• Palpy no longer babbles over the entire scene. It’s now more focused on Rey. (You know, the “protagonist.”)
• I removed the sections where Palpy tells her, “Absorb my spirit to save your friends.” I think this should be an internal conflict, a battle for Rey’s very soul; not some arbitrary blackmail thingy coming in at the eleventh hour. Plus, not only is it a boring retread of something that just happened in the previous movie, but it’s also very thematically muddled. (For example, Palpy convinces Rey that she’s responsible for his own troops killing her friends? I get that he’s trying to manipulate her, but the whole thing just doesn’t land for me, personally. To me, the movie itself frames it like, “Huh, Palpatine actually has a point there.” What is any of this supposed to say thematically? It’s like the entire thing is set up to make Rey not have a choice; which is stupid, because A) That gets rid of her agency as a character, and B) That means a complete lack of dramatic tension.)
• Rey’s darkest thoughts begin to take over; and it’s only when she sees that Ben has reformed and has come to her aid that she is able to calm her emotions. Thus, he helps her emotionally complete her journey as a Jedi. He’s not just there for his physical presence.

Smaller tweaks:

• Changed Rey’s line from “I haven’t come to rule the Sith; I’ve come to end them.” to “I’ve come to end you.”
• Changed Palpy’s line from “The time has come” to “So, the time has come.”
• Changed Rey’s line from “But I won’t [hate you, Grandpa!].” to “No…I won’t [murder you in cold blood.]”
• Removed Rey nodding to the Emperor, like “Okay, I’ll do your bidding. Just help me save Padmé.” Lets keep the suspense going instead. What is she going to decide? Will she kill him? Will she fall??
• Moved Palpy’s newest “Do it” meme to earlier in the sequence.
• Added Palpatine ordering his guards to kill Rey when he realizes that she won’t fall to the Dark Side after all.

In short, stronger character drama, more consistent storytelling, and better payoff from previous films.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E-g834NDnJeoItEVfSyjDvvw9INy4SmY/view?usp=sharing

Some of the edits may have to be cleaned up more, especially in stabilizing the musical score (bear in mind that some of these harsh cuts are just because I removed the spaceship/spacehorse battle for the demo here), but what do you think as a rough concept?

Also, while I was cutting the footage, I removed the Rey Palpatine angle from the scene. This was mainly as a proof-of-concept for the Rey Nobody version, but it would be pretty easy to slot back in some lines such as “The only family you have here is me.” “It is in your blood. Our blood.”

The problem is, the way the story is structured, Palpatine can’t use the Death Star Ships at all before the final battle, otherwise it raises the question of “Why isn’t he sending them all out right now??” I think the way it’s set up in V1 is fine. Lose the Kijimi attack, and the audience can just assume that the cannons are a weak spot on the ships (like the exhaust port on the Death Star).

“Fridge logic” is a good way of putting it. Do you think it’s worth trying to streamline Palpy’s plotting then, or best to just leave it be?

Edit: The other benefit of changing it from “Strike me down and I’ll possess you” to “Can Rey bring herself to kill someone?” is that it goes from an external conflict (blackmail) to an internal conflict of the soul. I find that more compelling, myself.

It makes the Light Side/Dark Side dichotomy more apparent, true - that would be a big step up from the J.J. version. But it still doesn’t quite explain why Palpy would order her to be killed when that would ruin his entire plan.

Jar Jar, I have no doubt that a lot of this is explained better in the novelizations; but we should be talking about what elements make for the best films, without necessary supplemental reading.

I still don’t buy the justifications for having Kylo kill Rey. If Palpy wanted to possess Kylo, he should have just let Kylo kill him in the prologue (like Kylo intended to anyway). Plus, doesn’t he say something to the effect of “I want to possess my granddaughter?” Maybe not, I’m not sure.

And sure, Palpy was insanely, illogically convoluted in the Prequels too; but one of the things I love about Hal’s cuts is how he managed to tone that down. For example, how the Tyrranus angle was cut from the formation of the Clone Army.

I’m just suggesting, to keep this all in line with Hal’s vision for the saga, maybe he would want to streamline this film too. If he decides it’s not necessary, that’s cool too.

Edit: Hal himself said he didn’t like that Snoke orders Rey’s execution, then Palpy does, and then Palpy claims he never wanted her dead. I’m suggesting a solution.

To be clear, Palpy’s plan for Rey is:

• Order Kylo to kill Rey.
• Anticipate him both trying to mow her down with his ship. But actually not want to kill her after all.
• Secretly lure Rey to him by means of…Ochi’s Dagger?
• Convince her to kill him by telling her it’s what he wants?
• Send his guards to try and kill Rey in the throne room as she’s about to kill him anyway
• Try to kill Rey anyway once the guards fail to do so
• Resurrect himself…some other way, I guess?
• Rule over a galaxy that he’s completely destroyed.

All of this convoluted nonsense could be avoided if his plan can be retooled to “Kill Rey because she is the last great threat to his return.”

Oh my god, everything I learn more about Palpy’s clones just makes it that much more confusing lol.

Would there be any way to cut out a lot of Palpy’s dialogue to Rey? A lot of it will have to be nixed anyway for Rey Nobody. Perhaps he’s just waiting there, silently. Rey looks up, sees her friends dying, she’s about to kill him without him goading her on (a lot of her dialogue with Finn seems to lead in this “Is Rey a killer” direction anyway), and then…she senses Benny Boy, and is given another option.

And then Palpy tries to kill her, realizes that he can absorb her life essence instead. Badda bing, badda boom.

Edit: Heck, just make it so that if she “strikes him down in anger, she’ll be lost to the Dark Side.” Basically, anything other than Palpy literally possessing her would work.

I would personally leave Rey’s admission about her parents as-is in TLJ, but that’s mainly because in my mind, Rey Nobody will be the true “definitive” version of TROS, and it will be important with that version that Rey accepts, for herself, that her parents don’t matter. If it’s just Kylo doing all of the talking, it deflates any sort of internal character struggle.

Also Hal, if Snoke has been recontextualized as “henchman” rather than “clone,” will you want to go back and remove that blue smoke that was added in TLJ:L V4 when he dies? (We could always chalk this up to, “Wow, he’s such a weird alien species! Look at that face! And his body is filled with blue smoke!” if you don’t want to go back to that one.)

It’s weird that there are so many potential places to add the trailer music. This is where I thought it could be added:

https://streamable.com/zmluye

(Bear in mind that this is a very rough test that I did quickly. I’m not sure how feasible it would be to remove the original score from this scene, as it seems to be nicely layered into all of the audio channels.)

Also, for what it’s worth, I do think AntonioGK’s version fits well; but I absolutely adore the way John Williams scored the “Be With Me” scene in the film. The chaos of the battle raging around her, and he…pulls the music back. A light little reprise of Rey’s Theme. And it builds from there. It’s my favorite-scored moment of the entire film, and I’d be really heartbroken to get rid of it. Besides, for all of the complaints that the Force Theme is overused in the film, isn’t it ideal to use in a scene that’s all about channeling the Force?

Movies Remastered said:

What do you think about Rey’s crackling Saber reflecting her mood? I’m just working on the Cave scenes and the aggressive effect really doesn’t look right. What if it’s calm when she is and out of control in battle scenes?

I agree with Hal that her crackling saber doesn’t really reflect her mood…although I personally wouldn’t mind a slightly softer crackle in the cave scenes. I think it should be more about the visual clarity of the shots - like in the training sequence, I seem to recall some discussion about making it way more crackly than usual, just to make the effect more noticeable to the audience. Granted, that scene was very kinetic, and in bright sunlight, so it needed a lot for the crackle to be seen. That amount of crackle wouldn’t be needed in a dark, slowly moving cave shot.

Like, you say it doesn’t look right, and it’s hard to weigh in without seeing it; but I don’t think the effect should ever be distracting. And since they make a point of the saber being the main source of light in the scene, you don’t want the audience’s main thought in the scene to be, “My god, that lightsaber is about to explode.” (Not to mention, will this affect any of the light that’s cast on the actors and set? Would it even be possible to make it flicker on their faces? I don’t think it will break the scene if that can’t be done, but it may create more of a disconnect if the saber is flickering way more than the light it’s casting.)

All of that being said…would it be possible to share a quick look at the effect, so we can get a better sense of how it looks?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

I understand it retroactively isn’t as much of an impactful event because he isn’t the “big bad” of the trilogy anymore. But when you have such a powerful villain die so easily in the second movie of a trilogy, it is to be expected that he would be diminished in such a way. Otherwise, the final movie in the trilogy has less stakes than the second one. That’s just bad storytelling in a trilogy.

Not to drag this point out any longer - Hal’s already made up his mind what’s going into V2 - but I do want to touch on this. You say it’s bad storytelling that “the big bad” was killed in the second film; the thing is though, Snoke wasn’t intended to be the ultimate baddie. Kylo was. That’s what Rian Johnson intended; and based on Trevorrow’s script, it’s what Disney originally intended. Heck, J.J. didn’t even decide to bring Palpy back until he started working on TROS. And Snoke wasn’t anything more than a cameo in TFA - from the beginning, this was supposed to all be about Kylo’s story. The “Skywalker’s” story. That’s why they killed Snoke - to set up Kylo Ren as the ultimate villain.

To me, bringing in the Emperor at all throws a huge wrench into the story. Saying Palpy was always secrectly, directly conntected to Snoke just adds even more turbulence to that wrench. You can jump through all of the mental gymnastics that you want; and if it feels satisfactory to you, then I’m genuinely happy that you feel that way. But let’s not pretend this was always the filmmakers’ intention.

But let’s save that discussion for Rey Nobody, eh?

Regarding the Medal Insert shot - it occurred to me that in order to get a decent looking rain effect, we’ll probably have to layer the rain between the background and foreground, and I’m not really sure how to do that. Perhaps one of our local VFX wizards might be able to help out? Or send me a PM to discuss it? I can also provide the original MP4 I exported if anyone wants that. Thanks!

For reference:

• The original sequence: https://streamable.com/soz9a7
• Color correction v1: https://streamable.com/y53j10
• Color correction v2: https://streamable.com/v8g9w8

RogueLeader also suggested placing the insert after the first shot of Leia, then cutting back to Kylo, and then cutting to Leia lying down. Personally, I like that idea a lot, but didn’t do any rearranging here.

Yeah, J.J. isn’t the most subtle of directors, is he? Thanks for clearing all of this up!

Sounds good, Hal. Will this involve further edits to your trilogy, or is this more of a “Here’s how I interpret the story” kind of deal?

Also, while I’m fine with leaving the “every voice” line, I just keep picturing something like the Wizard of Oz - the Emperor is behind a curtain, feverishly fiddling with levers; while a giant, floating Vader head is saying to Kylo, “What? No! Luke lied to you. I never turned good. Dark Side all the way, baby!”

(Seriously, am I losing my mind? Did we ever hear “Vader” speak directly to Kylo like Palpy claims? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.)

Hal 9000 said:

Snoke sure seemed to be a mere meat puppet in a cursory reading of TROS, IMHO. He’s every voice in Kylo’s head and essentially just Palpatine with a paper mask. And if that’s so, it makes little sense that Snoke seemed acutely aware of Rey and Kylo’s connection and Palpatine seems surprised by their dyad-ness. Unless the dyad thing was just like, “Oh, well I didn’t know it was THAT far.”

All this is why TROS initially made me feel like Doc Brown at the start of Back to the Future III.

Lol Hal, I know what you mean!

Also, despite the enormous amount of discourse lately, we’re all here because we believe that what you’ve done is way better than the original film. So thank you!

(If doing these edits doesn’t kill you, surely the frenzied debates will.)

Jar Jar Bricks said:

…because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of [the interrogation] scene…

She freaking what now?

Please, let’s not make the novels mandatory reading for this trilogy. According to strictly the films, Rey and Kylo’s connection didn’t begin until TLJ; I feel we should keep it that way. The films should be able to stand on their own. (And I’m sure once Hal is done, they will be able to do just that!)

And I can absolutely get behind Burbin’s change of “We’ve become a Dyad in the Force.” The Dyad fans are happy, and it doesn’t make her “born” special. That’s a great idea!

Icecream2448 said:

I’m very much a pro TLJ person, but I like their relationship turning into a mystical dyad force.
They already had a force connection before TLJ; Snoke just opened the door for them to actually verbally communicate with it

Did they? At what point in TFA was it even implied that they were connected? When Kylo was trying to probe her mind just like he did to Poe?

Icecream2448 said:

And the abilities of their dyad are so unbelievably powerful, again, still unbeknownst to Snoke/Emperor, that they can instantly transfer items back and forth through the force itself. Kylo getting water on his face is like a foreshadowing to that, which is paid off with the lightsaber transfer at the very end.

I mean, I like the idea of object transference; I just don’t believe that we need to give it a name for the sake of adding a new Wiki page. I’m not saying we have to cut out every time they communicate via the Force; I’m just saying that giving it an arbitrary classification such as “They can do it because they’re a Dyad!” doesn’t add anything of worth to the film. And personally, I think classifying it in such a textbook way massively undoes its significance in a number of important ways.

And Testing, I appreciate the thought that you put into your analysis. I fundamentally disagree with your interpretation - for reasons that I won’t bother exploring here, as this really isn’t the place for that sort of discussion - but it’s not my intention to invalidate your opinion.

That being said, a lot of people are here discussing TROS edits because we don’t like the decisions made in the theatrical cut, and Hal himself said he wants a Rey Nobody version; so it’s all a bit of a moot point, isn’t it?

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Honestly, it sounds to me like people on here have two different approaches to fixing this film:

1. Make TROS become more in line with what TLJ set up.
2. Make TLJ become more in line with what TROS settles, and fix a couple issues with TROS here and there.

Obviously I am in the second camp. IMO, the problem with being in the first camp is that JJ purposely created a film here which completely flips TLJ on its head. If you start adjusting this film to do exactly the opposite, you won’t be left with much of a film. Maybe like an hour or so of footage.

The same could be said the other way around though. If you’re going to change TLJ to be in line with TROS, you’ll have to remove:

• Everything with Rey, as it all revolves around her learning that her parents were nobody.
• Everything with Kylo, as it’s all about him shaking off the past influences of the Jedi and Sith, and stepping out from the shadow of his Master…until he accepts Palpy as his master and takes the Sith Fleet.
• Everything with Poe, as it’s all about him learning to become a leader…until he abandons his forces 16 hours before Doomsday in order to shuttle Rey across the galaxy on a scavenger hunt.
• Everything with Rose, because “She’s not important. Lol what are you talking about?”
• I guess you can keep the Finn stuff, because his complete lack of any characterization in TROS arguably doesn’t contradict what he did in TLJ?

You have two films here that are completely opposed to each other - the story, the characters, the themes, the tones - everything is different. So if we want them to play nicely with each other on any level, we need to favor one story over the other.

I favor TLJ because I think it’s a better story. A stronger story. If you prefer the story laid out by TROS, that’s your opinion, and you’re not wrong for having it.

Another option - keep the Dyad in V2, but prune it from Rey Nobody. People who have an issue with Rey Palpatine don’t like it because it strips Rey of her strength of character, only making her special by birth. If she’s also born as a Magical Dyad Entity, doesn’t that serve to achieve the same thing?

God damn, J.J. You were so determined to make sure Rey was special because of her blood, that you gave her a double birthright claim to power. Ffs