That is awesome!
BTW, Spaced Ranger, I looked at the frames of the kid being walked up the corridor, it looks like it is full colour in this print, the kid’s skintones are different to the doorframe tones.
Scanning is happening as I type, the print was so scratched up that the first scan wasn’t going to be all that watchable, and all suppliers were out of the wet-gate fluid being used.
I found some unused fluid at another facility, paid too much for it (good old market forces) and the film is nice and soaked and scanning away. It will definitely done before April leaves us.
A lot of people are writing that they have no funds but think it is crucial to save some of these films. It’s just too bad that something can’t be done. Why won’t someone come along and save it?
Anybody can be that someone.
My advice would be to pick a film you are passionate about, and hit up various forums with the idea of raising the funds to acquire the print. It can take a lot of time, and cajoling and creative thinking but anyone can do it, it is easier than ever now with the worldwide reach we all now have.
That is how things get saved, take your passion, find others, get them passionate about it, and then that larger crowd of like-minded, passionate people can pool resources and make something happen.
If you found 200 people that cared enough to punt $10 (i.e. put your loose change in a jar for a month, or go without a coffee or chocolate bar or a beer or two a few times, or start a swear jar…) , then you could buy Sleeping Beauty. A lot of people have thousands of ‘friends’ on facebook, or other social media platforms. Start a group, make some noise, make something happen.
Jiminy Cricket was wrong, nothing happens by wishing, only by doing 😃
Once you have a print there are many options now to getting it scanned and worked on, it all starts with acquiring a decent source, before the sources disappear forever.
The donation budget did not include the HDDs that I need to use to backup the files once I receive them, and doesn’t include HDDs to store the output of the cleanup work, which in total is more drives than the initial scan takes up, so more donations are always welcome.
Thanks to everyone, and also a quick note to all that have been asking me “didn’t you leave the boards?”. Well, yes it was my intention to finish off a few posts and go, and I have ramped back my involvement considerably, but this project was just way to important not to try and help ensure the film was at least scanned at the best quality possible.
So I will be finishing off this project, but won’t be posting here much, and probably not in other threads at all.
One other Empire related project has also suddenly become maybe possible, which is also crazily rare, so I’m hoping it will also be able to be secured, more on that later.
I am so excited that THX is happening, as well as preserving the ultra rare Italian cut, it will also allow Harmy to do an extremely high quality despecialised edition. These forums and the people who get involved are amazing, you are all genuinely ensuring that films get preserved that would otherwise be lost forever.
Didn’t the Blu-Rays also have the original shots cleaned up as well as the new shots?
I thought you could choose the version when playing them?
I am not going to be purchasing any, it is more just a heads up for anyone who might want to purchase a print, as some of these titles rarely come up.
I am completely tapped and currently have no income, and am burning up my last resources doing THX-1138 and another surprise project that I feel is too rare an opportunity to pass on.
These films are for others to take the mantle and run with if they want to, but I can connect you with the owner if anyone wants to pick one up.
To ensure THX could be done, I paid for another 3 months of Nucoda, that stung! Everything else runs out at the end of the Australian financial year, i.e. June.
I am on a hard deadline of my software license expiry, I’ve renewed one, but I don’t have the couple of thousand to renew all of the licenses once my current ones expire, so it will be done quickly 😃
Again, anyone with even a vague interest in preserving this film, even a single dollar donation helps.
When do they all expire, my friend? I thought you only had one software to renew (and that you did)
I am on a hard deadline of my software license expiry, I’ve renewed one, but I don’t have the couple of thousand to renew all of the licenses once my current ones expire, so it will be done quickly 😃
Again, anyone with even a vague interest in preserving this film, even a single dollar donation helps.
Just a quick note to say some IB Technicolor films are coming up for sale soon from a collector, if there is any interest, let me know.
As a guide, I was quoted US$2000 for the Sleeping Beauty print…
GODFATHER (IB)
SLEEPING BEAUTY (IB)
ON HER MAJESTIES SECRET SERVICE
FUNNY GIRL (IB)
MY FAIR LADY (IB)
PINOCCHIO (IB)
SNOW WHITE & THE SEVEN DWARFS (IB)
JUNGLE BOOK (IB)
PETER PAN (IB)
BATTLE OF BRITAIN (IB)
CINDERELLA (IB)
ROBIN HOOD (IB)
NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET II
HALLELUHAH TRAIL (IB)
SHAGGY DOG (B&W)
MARY POPPINS (IB)
DIRTY HARRY (IB)
DRAGON HEART (W/DTS)
BRAVEHEART (W/DTS)
Even $5 would bring it closer to happening.
This is one project that I really hope won’t fall through the cracks due to lack of funds, the film itself will not be able to be scanned in the future, this is really our one shot.
I’m extending my Nucoda license (at considerable expense) just to get this print restored, I really think it is one of the most important preservations happening, and one that will never happen via the studios.
It will be a fast project as well, I will be under the clock-tick of my software license expiry, this will be the last project I work on directly.
Currently the best approach is to match the sensor response curves to the LED emmission curves. This results in very specific LED selection criteria, to make sure you do not have light coming in that the sensor will miss.
As an aside - the comeback in vinyl is mostly due to mastering [and to hipsters 😉 ], the vinyl masters tend not to have the ‘loudness’ applied that so often afflicts music releases. (google “loudness wars” for anyone interested.) This results in the vinyl releases often having an artificially wider dynamic range than the ‘hotter’ CD release of the same album. This results in the vinyl sounding much better, but CD sounds better if taken from the same master, and the (often-digital) master tapes that the vinyl and/or CD is produced from, sounds better than both.
When both the CD and the Vinyl have the same master used, the CDs dynamic range is considerably wider, and closer to the source material than the vinyl record. People claim to be able to hear all sorts of things, but when we did some blind testing a few years back, we artificially put a ‘crackle-pop’ at the start of the digital recordings, and people waxed quite lyrically about how much warmer and true the vinyl recording sounded, except of course, that it was the CD track. We put the crackle in at the start to see if people perceived it differently if they thought they ‘knew’ it was on a record. Hearing is so easily manipulated by expectation, (this is fun for instance https://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0?t=21s) and we have never had anyone consistently able to hear a difference between an analogue master and a properly digitised copy of it.
That argument could play out forever, people love their records and I don’t want to spend my small amount of time here stirring up that hornet’s nest, so to get back on track, if you choose the R, G, B LEDs correctly (sometimes this will require a mix of two different spectrum RED LEDs) then you will recover everything the film has to offer. Most prints are pretty lo-fi, and you will get more detail scanning them than could ever have been perceived projecting them.
I am lucky enough to have good friends at RMIT that did some spectral analysis for me of various light sources, projected through film test images, and the separate RGB light source conveyed the widest spectral range of any of the light sources tested, that could be captured by commercially available sensors. Unfortunately the ‘white’ LEDs with high CRI ratings fare poorly. Partially because the CRI measurement system is badly flawed, resulting in poor reproduciton in skin-tones specifically. Hopefully the industry will switch to CQS which gives a much more true measure.
First step for anyone is to get a projector, where you can remove the shutter and have access to the gate. That is the only thing that isn’t available ‘off the shelf’, all the parts except the projector head are purchasable new.
Yes, you capture at the full bit depth available to the camera, and also can adjust the capture LUT to shift the bits to where they are needed most.
For most people’s computers, then yes you would capture to a 16bit TIFF sequence, or to an uncompressed 16bit .avi file. There are some codecs that work realtime if your system is fast enough if you want compressed images to save space, but for most people they would be capturing uncompressed. TIFFs are more demanding on disk speed and response than uncompressed AVI, but I prefer to capture to an image seqence rather than an AVI if the machine is up to it, as the TIFFs are usable without transcoding in a wider range of software packages.
Flashing the LED achieves a few things.
As mentioned, it freezes the film frame if using continuous motion, but even with an intermittent drive, flashing the LEDs freezes the image and stops any residual movement when the film is sitting in the gate, resulting in a sharper picture.
Heat. Flashing the LED means you don’t have to use heatsinks and cooling solutions, resulting in a more reliable and compact light source.
Colour. Using an array of RGB LEDs, you can adjust the colour mix by changing the individual flash duration of each colour. This lets you adjust the ‘white’ light to whatever mix is required for a particular film stock. For example, the faded THX 16mm print was restored to almost full colour just by changing the lighting during scanning. This results in better colour fidelity and more information captured.
Consistency. Changing the flash duration to control exposure gives you better consistency than driving the LEDs constantly and adjusting the power or using PWM to change the brightness.
Less flicker on capture than using PWM or other methods to adjust brightness as the light source is kept in phase with the camera trigger, and you are not getting brightness variance due to LED drivers.
You only need it for capture, so when capturing one reel at a time, and with lossless compression, you can get away with using that drive. You just capture until the drive is 80% full, and then copy it off to HDD storage, and then delete it and continue your capture.
I am using 3 x 1TB SSDs in a RAID0 setup, which works great as well, and it also useful as a work drive when doing corrections etc. as it allows you to work in real time when correcting etc.
A pair of SSDs in RAID0 is fast enough, I went with 3 as it allows me the workspace I wanted.
Of course, you could slow the whole shebang down, and capture at say 5-10fps to a normal HDD, or a single SSD, or have a RAID0 of 6 cheap 1TB HDDs or similar, but being able to capture in real time is a great advantage.
Added camera info to the end of my post.
I’m keen to see this as well.
There is a new thread about the Italian IB Tech here:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/THX-on-35mm-Tech-IB-preservation-HELP-NEEDED/id/48681
It is an incredibly rare find, and has come just in time to save it from oblivion.
You can’t legally use the BD as a source and then sell copies, the original 1923 version will be out of copyright, but the restorations done will have their own copyright.
ikantspelwurdz, you have a PM, I am only back on these forums to clean up a few posts, but happy to talk to you on email and help you out.
I was hoping to get this done by March 1st, but am still working on it.
Here is the quick overview.
The lighting setup, hardware and software is under a grand, that includes the hardware to flash the RGB light source, the light source itself, the hardware and software to control of the RGB light mix (very useful for faded prints), adjust the lighting exposure, trigger and control the camera, see the incoming images and adjust LUTs etc. and all the software do the actual capture.
Then you need to choose the sensor, I would recommend the PGR cameras, as they have the lowest noise and best dynamic range. If you are happy with 2K, then they start at USD495 I think, and that will let you capture at 24fps. If you want 3-4K or similar, then they are around USD1800-3500. The lens is around $100, and probably another $50-$100 for extension tubes, adapters and cables. You will also need mounting hardware, and an opal glass diffuser, or you can 3D-Print a light integrating sphere to do the diffusion.
I’d recommend a micrometer sled/sliding stage to mount the camera on for fine focus control. These are available 2nd hand, anywhere for $40 - $300.
You will also need a hall-effect sensor and small neodynimium magnet (around $5 for both)
Then you just need a 35mm projector head, you use the LED light source in place of the Xenon bulb, remove the projector shutter, mount the magnet and hall effect sensor on the main drive shaft. Wire it to the LED control board. (three simple wires to the inout on the board)
Mount the PGR camera and lens on the focus sled, and align it to the gate. Run the trigger output from the LED control board to the PGR camera (two wires). Plug the PGR camera into a USB3 slot on the computer.
Fire up the capture software, and set the fame-rate you require etc. The LED light source will start flashing, and the image from the camera will appear on screen. You can focus and frame the image now. You can also adjust the RGB mix and exposure to suit the film stock, you get realtime feedback, histograms, etc. on screen whilst making adjustments.
Once you are happy with it, you choose an output filename, press ‘Start Capture’ and turn the motor to the projector on, and it will start capturing in real time.
That is it really. One other note, You will need one of the PCIe or M2 fast SSD drives, or a RAID0 array of 3 SATA SSDs to keep up with the data coming in from the camera at 4K @ 24fps.
I can set you up with the LED control board and software through the guy that makes them for me, I’ll check his current pricing, but it is way under what he charges the companies he makes them for, they are used in $50,000 scanners and are fantastic quality.
The software is locked to one computer, but you can get extra licenses if needed for under $100 from memory, he doesn’t make any money of that, it is just what the software dev kit licence costs per machine. All the other parts are readily available. The quality is similar to the $50,000 Scanstation and better than the BMD $30,000 scanner.
It will not give you a damage matte, that is possible but would require a redesign of the LED light source, would also require a mono camera, and capturing the R, G, B and IR frames separately and then combining them, which would make things take 4 times as long and eat up more storage. But it could be done.
My goal is to have a ton of affordable scanners across the globe, I’m working on getting one going in Europe now as well, if we can preserve the films no-one else will or can, then I feel like we are really making a difference.
I will have the full guide up in the next month if there is any interest, I will post it here when done.
EDIT: The new PGR cameras are out, the best value is the new chameleon camera at USD465, with 2048x1536 resolution at 55fps
https://www.ptgrey.com/chameleon3-32-mp-color-usb3-vision-sonyimx265
or the 2448 x 2048 version for USD735
https://www.ptgrey.com/chameleon3-50-mp-color-usb3-vision-sony-imx264-2
2448 x 2048 is more resolution than you will typically get out of a 35mm print, and way more than you will get out of a 16mm or 8mm print. You can go to 4K sensors, but as Harmy has pointed out, on release prints there is really no point, and for scope prints, your vertical resolution of 2048 is over three times the resolution of 1080P Bluray, (as the 35mm scope frame fills the sensor).
If you got a hold of an original camera negative, then sure, I’d grab a 4K sensor, but for prints, you are just not getting any extra info, and the 2448 x 2048 resolution is more than enough.
Remember, UHD/consumer 4K vertical resolution for a cinemascope release is only around 1500-1600 lines, so when scanning at 2448 x 2048 resolution you are scaling down to UHD/4K on the vertical resolution when working with scope prints. i.e. the vertical resolution is higher than ‘consumer’ 4K.
TO me this project is more important now than the Original Trilogy. THX-1138 was changed just as much, if not more than SW was, and there is no high definition version of the original release, and no decent quality version of the Italian cut at all.
This is an incredibly important find, all of the Italian IB prints of this now have Vinegar Syndrome, in just a few years, there will literally be none of these prints in existence, anywhere. This version would be lost forever, there will simply be no sources left.
This print is still in good condition, but VS has started on it too, and in another year it will likely not be able to be scanned.
I really hope this can get to its funding goal, Star Wars has already been scanned in high quality, multiple times, it is safe for future generations. THX 1138 sadly is not, and the prints are disappearing fast. The Italian print is particularly important as it was a different cut, seen no-where else in the world. It will also allow us to restore the US cut to its original form and glory as well.
I really think this is one of the most important preservations ever undertaken here.
satanika said:
Oh, I understood Doctor M’s post to be about Roger Rabbit. Never mind then, yes I’ve heard the story about The Rescuers.
Yes, my question was about WFRR?, how did we get onto the Rescuers?
I appreciate the desire for having the original untouched, I was just wondering if small single frame detail is actually visible.
I have noticed a few one frame gags in films, enough to have gone back to see if what I thought I saw was real.
Two or three frame gags (like the Rescuer’s window) are easily visible.
AntcuFaalb and I have been talking about something like this for the past few years, so thank you for being the catalyst to get it actually happening!
cybr1d, you are right on all counts..
and you have a private message 😃
Thanks again guys, I am out of here come March 1st, have a few things I want to upload and threads to finish off before I go.
I’ll be back when life settles down, really need to find a proper income right now, and as mentioned will be working via good old 20th Century emails with many people here, so plenty will continue happening behind the scenes.
He actually did finish his player, and has modded some for others, and is still willing to talk to people about it, he just decided not to continue on forums because of time constraints and people flooding him with requests etc.
You can message him via his youtube channel and he will usually respond within a few weeks.