Warbler said:
I was keeping that inside me for along time and then came a tipping point. Jay making oojason a moderator(btw, Jay should have made that announcement, not Silverwook, announcing new mods is a job for the admin).
Does it really matter who made the announcement? Whether it was Jay, SilverWook or Anchorhead? Either way the announcement made - and it was clear & concise. It also appeared across the top of every section of the site - and no-one else seemingly had an issue with it, that I recall.
In my opinion, that just did not work. Part of that is colored by how it started. I was in a bad mod one weekend in late September of 2017 and had gone a bit too far in posting in the politics thread. Up to that time the rules, at least in the off topic were not being enforced all that strictly. If the politics threads were visible I could point to posts made within weeks of that September that clearly violated the rules and yet no one had done anything about them. It was clear that the rules were not being enforced strictly. Then I made the posts in September of 2017 and oojason stepped in. I didn’t even realize he had been made a moderator. We got into an argument and I got temp banned(at the time I didn’t realize whether the ban was temp or perm because I didn’t realize it was oojason that banned me).
IIRC within a day it was explained to you (via email) that it was a 2 day cool-off period - issued by me. At the time I apologised to you for not realising a banned member on the site could not read the PM sent to you informing you of my decision to reluctantly give you that cooling-off period - and why.
It shortly became clear that oojason was very strictly enforcing the rules. The problem is, until after I got banned, no one had given any warning that the rules were now going to be more strictly enforced. Another thing was that I got temp banned before anything had been done to the likes of Darth Id, General Frevious, and Jediuze(I forget how it is spelled and I can’t see the politic thread to get the right spelling) which were clearly trolls and had behaved much worse than I did. This was a tipping off point for me. It made me think there was a double standard going on. It just further cemented my anger. But I again tried to more on from it.
I disagree with that, somewhat. As stated to you before the rules are there to help make this place a civil one. It’s not a strict application of those rules I undertook - just more of a case of trying to make an effort for that to happen more (be civil with each other), and in doing so making this place more welcoming and a more enjoyable place to be.
Then oojason went nitpicking in the offtopic section and punished people for ridiculous things. He was ruining the fun for a lot of people. I think oojason did a terrible job, I am not the only one that thinks so. It didn’t help that we did not know whether Jay ordered that the rules be more strictly enforced or whether oojason had taken it upon himself to do so.
I think the paragraph posted by me above applies here too - with that asking people to stop telling each other to ‘fuck off’ isn’t a great look for the forum, nor is it very welcoming for new or other members. As explained at the time - it can also lead to misunderstandings and ructions even when said in jest.
If you’re referring to you being asked to reduce the size of your signature… it was a little on the large size, Warb. It took up nearly half the page. Given your liking to reply to each issue/post with an individual post by yourself there were often occasions where members were scrolling through your multiple replies - often searching for one word or one-line answers between. When members asked us to reduce the signature size, we then asked you to reduce it.
If you’re referring to me asking you to stop with the ‘sigh only’ posts - that was also explained at the time in a bid to try and cut down on misunderstandings to when you had previously posed ‘sighs’ and members would get the wrong end of the stick by you meant or what you were referring to - resulting in your original point being lost, forgotten or ignored. In a bid to improve the flow and understanding of the point you were making you were asked give an explanation along with when you sighed. (Other members were asked to stop with the ‘hahahaha’ type posts too - both part of a bid to improve the quality and flow of discussion).
For banning someone who posted up an image regarding paedophilia, bestiality and religious intolerance (and IIRC was also racist?), and who also kicked off at the mods and then re-posted the offending image - I’ve no qualms about my actions there.
Asking for members in the-then Off Topic section to be a little more civil to each other, and trying to improve the flow and quality of posts made… isn’t really nitpicking in my book - nor do I believe it is ‘punishing people for ridiculous things’.
This, and more, was explained to members who had voiced concerns in a Group PM and were under the mistaken impression there were new rules in play (or changes made to them). After Jay and I replied to their concerns highlighting this and answering various questions we didn’t hear anything back - so I imagine those concerns were eased. (kudos to Handman for representing those issues to us, and doing a top job in doing so.)
I felt that he treated me like he was so much better than I and like I was some sort of terrible and despicable person who needed to be taught how to behave by him. He always assumed the worse about my intentions. That even further cemented my anger.
I’m sorry you feel that way - though am at somewhat of a loss on how you came to that conclusion - and am quite surprised by it. The many PMs to me asking for my opinion / thoughts / information / assistance usually started off well - before you often made digs or attacked me in them for not agreeing with you, or not taking the course of action you wish to happen. I’m aware you think I use your words against you and you don’t appreciate it - though if I quote your words back to you it’s only in a bid to address & cover the points made by yourself. Personally I think you’re being a little hyperbolic in your above statement ‘He always assumed the worse about my intentions.’ - and I try to never assume anyone’s intentions before reading what they actually have to say.
That you think I did a terrible job saddens me - though that is your opinion - and you’re most welcome to it.
Warbler said:
- Inconsistent moderation. Let us face it, how Silverwook moderates compared to how oojason did is night and day. They are entirely different. That is a problem. Moderation, no matter who is doing it needs to be consistent. It is not fair that whether someone is punished for something and/or what the punishment is, depends on who is doing the moderating. Tell your moderators how you want and expect the forum to be moderated and make sure they are all moderating it the same. This would also help in making clear how you expect people to behave.
Yes, we’re different people, though as stated before by the other mods, and Jay, we are not a hive mind. I’ll freely admit I’m the ‘worst’ mod on here and made a fair few mistakes - though it’s a high bar on here (and both love and respect SilverWook, Anchorhead, Zion, Moth3r & Jay and the way they handle(d) things, their commitment and dedication to the site.
That you believe that Jay didn’t converse with us on issues is baffling to me - or that we actually often talked issues through before acting on them at times baffles me too.
I think maybe some people ignore the 1st paragraph in the Rules thread:-
‘Interesting and productive discourse lies in the reasonable space between protecting delicate flowers from the slightest offense and promoting a crude free-for-all. We aim to provide an open and lively discussion forum while keeping things civil, hence the following rules.’
Be civil, be cool & welcoming - that’s pretty much it in how I believe Jay seemingly would like members to ‘behave’ here. Doesn’t seem a bad idea to me, that - seems many agree too given that we’re still here 15 years on, and still going strong.
As for your earlier statement in which…
Warbler said:
But why did I react the way I did? Anger. Anger at what has gone on here for years. I have been a forum member here for 15 years. For a large percentage of that, I have felt like dirt under Jay’s feet. I realize I share part of the blame. I know some it goes back to my actions during what I have always called the great forum schism(now I guess it is the first forum schism) back in 2006 with the situation involving Dayv and fanedit.com(now fanedit.org). I do regret some of how I acted and some of what I said. I believe I have said that before. I also deeply regret the times I trolled on here. I admit it was childish and stupid and I am embarrassed about doing so. I do believe that even though I have tried to move on from both, I don’t think Jay has never been able to truly forgive me and it has caused animosity between us for years. But it is not just that.
It has do with years of Jay acting like he preferred the Trolls over legitimate forum members. It used to be trolls could get away with murder on here. I have been the victim of bullying and personal attacks from trolls, with Jay and his mods doing nothing. Finally, they started moderating the off topic section, but my anger at having to put up with the trolls for years while Jay and the mods did nothing, remained. To me at the time I thought all Jay and the mods should do is just perm ban the trolls and leave off topic otherwise un-moderated. I think I now realize it’s a little more complicated than that. I also felt and still feel that Jay has never appreciated the special place that off topic became(note, I did not say perfect). To my point of view, he has always had disdain for the off topic section and consequently, we(those post most often in off topic) have felt like Jay’s dirty ugly step children. That fed into the animosity and my anger. There were also multiple PMs to you and other mods that went unanswered. That too fed into my anger.
Just a quick one, here. I believe you are wrong on how you believe Jay sees you. Despite you publishing private email conversations on the site, harassing me after you were asked to stop contacting me (and on other occasions since - quite ironic given your approval of Rule 6 in the Rules thread), and then giving quite a one-eyed opinion of what had occurred at the time in your ‘Warbler’s Statement’ thread… I’ll let you know Jay was person who asked me to reduce your ‘week off’ for doing so to just a few days, and that he generally speaks well of you in the Admin section. Jay also had no problem with you using the site to start up ‘Warbler’s Place 2 - PM Boogaloo’ type PM threads - despite you not posting on the open forum. And if I may be blunt here, had no problem with you going off a little huffy and announcing you were doing so (IIRC because despite asking me to take action vs three members you believed had done you wrong, yet you refused to explain what they had actually done to you on at least three occasions, before telling me to go ask them what they had done to you. A little help and information was that was being asked Warb - to try and understand why you were apparently upset).
Jay has also gone to significant efforts to reform the Off Topic for the better - giving members here what they they long wished for - a place to discuss media, film, tv, music, art, politics, religion, sport, life etc in a place outside of the old Off Topic section - yet still contain that (now Cantina) section - where members are more free to goofball & mess around - and is more freely moderated than other sections of the site.
Also, your claim that multiple PM to the mods went unanswered is not true - I’ve answered every single one of your many PMs to me (bar your last PM reply to me). You may not have liked or agreed with the content - though they were all answered, and I believe engaged with - and given the same respect, thought, care and attention that I gave to everyone else. The reason why I haven’t responded to your last PM reply is that I no longer wish to spend any more time and effort here discussing issues with you when you state that collipso’s open letter (containing ‘go drive yourself into a tree’) is ‘it was a thing of beauty’ and that ‘you loved the open letter’.
My time spent here is limited (though it certainly may not seem like it of late! 😃) due to changes in personal circumstances mean I stepped down as moderator here (something which can take a lot out of a person). Regardless of Jay being involved in a car accident years ago - or whether collipso knew of that or not… it was out of order and a disgusting thing for him to say to anyone (basically to go kill yourself). I’ve nothing further to say to either of you - and will likely only converse with you in the future to correct and give balance to some of your oft repeated one-eyed and sometimes revisionist recollections of previous events here.
Honestly, I never thought there’d be day where I believed this site would be a better place without you - though given your continuing & selective views of me and others (as well as aggressive attitude to me in your PMs), your obvious and clear frustrations with the site & how it’s run, the anger which has manifested itself within you over that time - and also your recent comments & claims - I no longer believe that to be the case.
I wish you well for the future, Warb - though I hope it is away from here, for both the good of the site - and also yourself.
