oohteedee

RuleStickler said:

ChainsawAsh said:

I can at least give you the most current versions of each:

4K83 - all listed below use Sanjuro’s color grade, though usually with minor adjustments by either ohteedee (no/minimal DNR) or SkyDude (medium/heavy/max DNR)

• No DNR: v1.1 (1080p and 2160p MKVs)
• Minimal DNR: v1.3 (1080p and 2160p MKVs) (this is effectively “no DNR” in that it targets just the chroma noise introduced during scanning, but it’s impossible to guarantee no film grain is affected, so it isn’t labeled as “no DNR”)
• Medium DNR: v1.1 (2160p MKV and 1080p Blu-Ray)
• Heavy DNR: v1.2 (1080p MKV and 1080p Blu-Ray)
• Maximum DNR: v1.2.2 (2160p MKV)

I don’t know how many of the 4K83 DNR variants have made it out into the wild other than MySpleen. DNR work on the medium/heavy/max DNR releases by SkyDude, minimal DNR by ohteedee.

If I missed anything, someone please chime in to correct me!

Were there any color changes with 4k83 v1.3? I seem to recall that the color grading was refined from v1.1 noDNR, but I could just be imagining things.

Some colour tweaks were made for v1.3. It’s similar to v1.1 but I fixed a bunch of shots that didn’t look right to me. I think I brightened it up a bit too.

Here is a slight upgrade for the frames williarob posted.
This is three consecutive frames with and without noise reduction. Three frames allows you to stack them if need to extract the highest quality combined image.
The colour is 4K77 v1.0. Colour accuracy is debatable.
They are anamorphic so you will have to do a 2:1 horizontal stretch to properly view them.
They are 16bit, 3734 x 3164 pixels anamorphic. Stretched will be 7468 x 3164.
I cropped the sound track and sprocket holes but is otherwise uncropped.
It is Technicolor sourced.

Hope this helps.

https://we.tl/t-7NO69YiA65

This is true, and just as irrelevant to the discussion as ever.

If you truly believe that 2 frames of foreign dialogue is more out of sync than 5 frames of English (original) dialog then this whole conversation is pointless. Logic has lost.

Dubbed audio does not match the lips. They are speaking another language.

The GOUT audio is not actually synced to the GOUT video. It is off by as much as 5 frames. This was discovered by hairy_hen while working on the 4k83 audio. It slowly drifts out of sync in the second half.

People don’t complain of it because they aren’t aware of where it’s off. They are told it’s right so they don’t notice it.
People may complain of alternate audio with 4k83 because they know exactly where the sync issue is so they listen and force themselves to hear it. It’s a placebo effect.

If you take something perfect and tell people something is wrong they will find something wrong even though there isn’t.

Even one version of despecialized had audio out of sync and no one noticed because we all assumed it was correct.

It’s kinda like in Inception. You can only plant the seed for change. Each person has to make up their mind on their own.

I’m even a bit uncertain of all the 4K83 iterations so far.
From memory. I may have missed some.

1.0 1080p, 2160p, my failed colour correction.
1.0 1080p, BluRay ISO and DNR versions by williarob. Colours tweeked

1.1 1080p, 2160p sanjuro_61’s colour correction.
1.1 2k, full frame (uncropped)
1.1 2160p, DNR by williarob using SkyDude’s presets.

1.2 1080p, DNR by SkyDude
1.2 1080p, BluRay ISO of DNR above
1.2.1 2160p DNR by SkyDude, colours tweaked (still rendering, coming soon)

And I’m currently working on a minimal DNR version that is targeting the chroma noise of the camera and trying to preserve the film grain. As yet to be numbered.

None of those 11 or so iterations are GOUT synced.

And of course when DrDre is done with his CC that’ll be even more iterations.

Sorry, I can come off sounding like a jerk sometimes.

You have every right to enjoy the movie the way you want.

I’ll personally never GOUT sync 4k83 but I understand why some would want to.

I understand that people refuse to let go of the past and reject progress which is why you feel compelled to do this.

I am not one of those. The GOUT is flawed in many ways and should be retired. I reject the GOUT as the standard and only accept the complete film as originally created as the standard.

4K83 preserves the complete film as it would have been seen (in a perfect scenario) in theaters. Why would we settle for anything less than the complete original film.

The 5.1 track should not be the default track. That track is only recommended for playing back on a 5.1 system, as per hairy_hen. It does not fold down properly to a 2.0 system. Listening to it on a 2.0 system it sounds off. The 2.0 track should be the default because of that.

While the GOUT is missing two frames and I’ll assume trimming those is all you did to GOUT sync it, the actual GOUT audio is not even synced properly to the GOUT video. So by trimming those two frames you are providing a version where the audio is out of sync as the GOUT always has been.

The effort you put in to creating this version would have been better spent syncing the audio tracks you have to 4K83 which is the complete film as originally created.

If Disney releases the film in it’s complete and original form sometime soon will you trim that too to fit a flawed and incomplete standard? I sure hope not.

this is just my opinion on the matter of course

Just keep in mind that when the 4K83 optical audio was being synced to the print it was discovered that the actual GOUT audio isn’t properly synced to the GOUT video. Just as they screwed up and missed two film frames they also screwed up syncing the audio.

So really if you’re going to GOUT sync 4K83 you should properly GOUT sync all the GOUT audio tracks too since they are not even synced properly to the GOUT video.

The print audio can be accurately synced to the print since any audio dropouts you hear can actually be seen as to why they dropout in the optical audio track on the left side of the print. The audio dropouts are at splices in the optical audio track on the print.

The GOUT audio was always assumed to be correct but it’s not.

Colors look great on this. Well done.

Thanks for sharing the project files too.

CatBus said:

theMaestro said:

But shouldn’t historical preservation be the top priority instead of convenience?

It all depends on how literal you want to be. Two frames is 83 milliseconds of a film. It’s also not unusual for a few frames to get skipped at a reel change, so it’s unclear how many theatrical audiences really saw those 83 milliseconds in the first place.

I get the argument both ways. But it’s 83 milliseconds that breaks stuff (but not as much stuff as people think), so it’s ultimately a matter of how much you really want them. Different people, different priorities.

Those two frames are in the middle of reel 3 so I would guess 99% of screenings had those two frames. Other frames at reel changes were most certainly not always seen, but that’s the case for most 35mm films in theatres.

4k77 is missing one frame at the end of reel 5. The only available source was the BD so it was not used. If the 35mm prints were complete then it would have been used in 4k77 for historical accuracy and preservation. The BD frame should have been used anyway IMHO.

Why would anyone insist on maintaining an incomplete and low quality standard like the 2006 gout. The complete films as created and released originally in theatres should be the only acceptable standard and not the flawed 2006 DVDs that most people don’t even like because of their poor quality.

Everyone preaches for the original theatrical version but when they’re presented with it they insist on it being butchered to a non original and incomplete standard.

Fix the audio, don’t butcher the films.

a_o said:

Are there FLAC encodes of the laserdisc PCM audio synced to 4K83?

Yes but they haven’t been shared openly. I only added the ac3 versions to 4k83.

LordZerome1080 said:

If you make an account with the forum included in the site you can get early access

It’s a bit late to get early access since it’s out in the wild now.

I believe the gout audio would be -2 frames (early) up to 0:47:41 and -4 frames afterward. (Based on info provided from hairy_hen and schorman)

gout audio is approximately -2 frames throughout for the actual gout video. The gout isn’t even gout synced correctly.

If using other than English gout synced audio you shouldn’t notice the difference because the lips already don’t sync and overall they may be synced differently.

No DNR version has been made.
No DNR or sharpening has been applied to the image.
The grain is very minimal. It hasn’t yet been decided if a DNR version will be made.

Theatrical prints are typically three generations from the negative.

This is indeed a special screening print struck directly from the negative. It spent most of its life in storage and was maybe only projected a few times. The low generation is evident when you see the minimal grain and sharpness. It had next to no dirt on the print as well.

4K83 is not gout synced. It has two extra frames shown in theatres.
The optical print audio is the primary audio track.
hairy_hen has created a new 5.1 audio track for this release.
schorman has updated all the English LaserDisc audio to this release.
All audio provided with 4k83 is synced to 4k83.

Any other gout audio you may have may be slightly out of sync after 0:47:41, if used with 4k83. It should not be noticeable though.

Foreign language tracks don’t lip sync anyway so you’d never notice it being slightly out.

In updating the audio tracks for 4k83 our audio experts actually discovered that the gout synced audio tracks are not actually properly gout synced themselves. All tracks are off sync by 2 to 3 frames for over half of the movie.

99.9% of all frames from one 35mm Eastman print struck directly from the original negative in 1983. The remaining 175 frames are from an alternate 35mm print. No missing frames. All frames are from 35mm prints scanned at 4K. 4k83 even has the two theatrical frames that are missing from the GOUT. 100% of frames as seen in theatres in 1983.

The 175 frames were needed because of a scanning glitch during the main print capture else all would have been from the one print.

Danfun128 said:

Damn, it hasn’t even been a year since 4k77 was released. With any luck, 4k80 will arrive before Valentine’s Day 2019!

On a different note, how does the cropping compare with (among other releases) Harmy’s Grindhouse 35mm, Harmy’s Despecialized 2.0, and the 2011 SE Blu-Ray? I remember that @ZigZag compared a frame from ANH here and it showed that the Star Wars SSE had moments of showing more frame than 4K77 did. I’d like to know if something similar is going on between 4K83 and Harmy’s Grindhouse.

On the right side the crop is about the same as official releases (may show slightly less or slightly more). On the top and bottom a bit more of the image is present in 4k83. On the left side even more of the image is shown in 4k83. So overall 4k83 has more image then has ever been presented before.

even I don’t know and I’m the one doing it.

The nonDNR version had a lot of grain so it needed a higher bitrate to preserve it. The DNR version is not as complex so it doesn’t need that high of a bitrate.

PM sent

I can help you with that Jedi shot in 4K.

Give me a day or so to get it ready for you.

Chewielewis said:

Are these frames on reel changes?

The two frames that are missing from the NTSC GOUT are in the middle of reel 3. They occur immediately before the splice in the middle of the reel. Each reel is comprised of two lengths of film spliced together.
No frames are missing from the print we are using.

CatBus said:

“The good thing about standards are there are so many to choose from!”

IMO GOUT (NTSC GOUT to be precise) meets the “good enough” standard, and I’m for sticking with it forever. Adding a frame that was never actually seen in theatres would break sync for all projects (not that it would matter for subtitles, but I’m thinking of others), for a pretty esoteric benefit.

There’s a better argument to be made for matching theatrical prints, since they have fewer frames than the GOUT, but it does not seem that they do so in a consistent manner, so there’s no standard that would apply to all prints. And losing those frames would also break sync for all projects for a pretty esoteric benefit.

Theatrical prints are missing frames because of projectionists cutting them off from time to time and wear and tear on the print. 4k77 is GOUT synced because the one missing frame is at the end of reel 5 for which we didn’t have a 35mm source. We would have had to use a BluRay frame to add it, so it was just left out.
Jedi GOUT is missing two frames from the middle of reel 3. We have “perfect” 35mm 4K scans for those two non GOUT frames. Those will be included in 4k83. It would be dumb IMHO to exclude 35mm theatrical frames to maintain a flawed video standard like the GOUT.

That looks fantastic.