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of_Kaiburr_and_Whills

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16-Jun-2022
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27-Nov-2022
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Post
#1512632
Topic
Anyone else think Empire Strikes Back's Special Edition is actually better than the Theatrical Cut?
Time

For context: I grew up with the 2004-2011 editions of the OT. Because of this I personally do enjoy seeing the added Wampa and Cloud City scenes. I’ve also seen the original Emperor holograms, and while yes, it does look weird compared to what I’m used to, it is certainly more sinister in my opinion. I have the same feelings towards the new Boba dubs. Don’t hate the newer versions, I’m more used to them, but the originals are quite menacing in a way I also appreciate.

Post
#1507082
Topic
Prequel Nostalgia
Time

Darth Malgus said:

Yeah, it’s a strange phenomenon. A few years ago, it seemed like prequel fans used to be more laid back and more open to criticism of the movies. They used to be more willing to laugh alongside you at the prequels’ ridiculous moments. But as time has gone on, the prequel fandom has gotten more and more fervent and unironic and sensitive to criticism, which is a shame. Now you have all these video essays about how the prequels are masterpieces and how the flaws aren’t actually flaws.

I don’t want to start an unnecessary controversy, but I want to give my opinion on this topic, since I’m a Prequel fan.
I’m one of those people who’s not bothered by the things that annoy everyone. For example, the dialogue and the love story don’t bother me, as well as Jar Jar. So, I personally don’t see these things as flaws. However, I think it’s wrong to say that the Prequels have no flaws in general. But I think that the people who say that the Prequels have no flaws are driven to do so because, on the other side, there are people who say that they have ONLY flaws. That is, people of one extreme act the way they act because on the other side there are people of the other extreme. Since there are people who say that the Prequels have ONLY flaws, then there are people who, as an automatic reaction, defend everything about the movies and say they have NO flaws. The fact that there are no Original Trilogy fans who defend everything about the movies, is explained simply by the fact that there are no people who say that the Originals have only flaws, unlike the Prequels.

I agree with this.

What I’m about to say may not be the perfect analogy to describe it, but I’ll try anyway: Its like a pendulum swing. For so long discourse over the prequels was held in such a critical regard that its completely swung in the other direction, especially as those of us who grew up with them can now respond to those critiques.

Post
#1506863
Topic
Prequel Nostalgia
Time

Servii said:

Superweapon VII said:

Servii said:

If Ed Wood had been a multi-millionaire with access to early 21st century VFX, he would’ve made movies of exactly the same quality.

That’s part of the charm of the prequels for me, honestly. The fact that they’re so unapologetically George’s movies, with all the good and bad that that entails. It’s preferable to movies that feel like they were made by a board room.

I wish more prequel fans thought this way, really. I can understand loving the prequels, warts and all. What I can’t fathom is the mentality that insists there are no warts.

Yeah, it’s a strange phenomenon. A few years ago, it seemed like prequel fans used to be more laid back and more open to criticism of the movies. They used to be more willing to laugh alongside you at the prequels’ ridiculous moments. But as time has gone on, the prequel fandom has gotten more and more fervent and unironic and sensitive to criticism, which is a shame. Now you have all these video essays about how the prequels are masterpieces and how the flaws aren’t actually flaws.

I’m pretty sure it is people in my age demographic who are the most like this, and it’s actually the thing that makes me feel a bit disenfranchised when it comes to talking with fellow Prequel fans because I accept they are flawed movies, but I still cherish them.

When I first heard about prequel criticism I’ll admit I was a bit shocked, but after listening to more of the arguments I found that I did agree with many of them. It’s actually a funny story because on of the first criticisms I heard about these movies came from my middle school theater arts teacher who said “Jar Jar Binks is one of the problems with those movies.” Of course I disagree with that point, I’ve always loved Jar Jar, but it did “wake me up” so to say.

Post
#1506861
Topic
Prequel Nostalgia
Time

I feel like I might be the youngest person here!

I didn’t start getting into Star Wars until I was about 7 or 8 which is when the '08 Clone Wars began, though I wouldn’t say I was fully obsessed with it till I was around 10. At the time the original six film saga had already been fully released so I had grown up with the whole saga as one and have nostalgia for all of it. In fact, my first time seeing Star Wars in theaters was the 3D rerelease of Phantom Menace back in 2012.

Post
#1506171
Topic
Anakin/Vader and mortality
Time

G&G-Fan said:

The latter is what I would prefer. I do love how Lucas used Anakin’s fall to have themes about the dangers of clinging onto someone too hard and not being able to let go. But I also think that having an added layer of Anakin’s unwillingness to accept his own mortality as well would add more to it.

Because you’re having a man literally slaughter his entire adoptive family. Going against everything he fought for and valued. His reasoning for turning should be multi-layered.

I feel like that’s a lot of the reason people cling to the “Jedi were ideologically flawed and Anakin was getting revenge on the Jedi for forcing him to repress his emotions” head canon when George Lucas literally agrees with the Jedi’s philosophy (and says they’re allowed to love and all that) and only blames Anakin’s greed and Palpatine’s manipulation for his turn. Anakin literally only turned to save his wife. Nothing to do with the Jedi.

“Some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad… They didn’t seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn’t have much to do with Darth Vader; he’s a pawn in the whole scheme.”
-George Lucas, The Making of Revenge of the Sith

And that’s kinda hard for a lot of people to accept. So I think emphasizing more that Anakin’s only goal isn’t to prevent Padme’s death, but also his own and bringing order to the galaxy, bending the natural cycle of life and the state of the galaxy to his will, would be a good way to make his turn more layered.

I back everything about this. (And you’re also 100% correct about Lucas and his ideas about the Jedi.)

Post
#1504176
Topic
One thing you wish were still canon
Time

One thing I’d like to see “canon” isn’t so much one particular story or character, but rather a type of story: One off little adventures.

The Han Solo and Lando Calrissian adventures by Brian Daley and L Neil Smith are the perfect examples of this. They make up their own friends and foes, go to completely new worlds, and don’t rely on the same derivative elements and ideas.

They are simply entertaining stories that go off to new places. There’s weird stuff, there’s badass stuff, there’s funny stuff. Its perfect. Star Wars Visions and the Star Wars Tales comics somewhat follow this same idea, though without the parody or “fan-servicy” elements of the later.

Post
#1504173
Topic
You're Disney, what do you do with Star Wars?
Time

SparkySywer said:

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

Darth Malgus said:

I think it might be simpler to just do it the way the Star Trek EU does and let people choose to integrate or not integrate whichever canon they want.

Well, no. Unlike most of you, I’m a person who actually cares about continuity. I would like Star Wars to be a multimedia project, a single universe made up of multiple media that’s basically consistent with itself and between the various stories, as much as possible. I’m absolutely in favour of the existence of and official continuity, I think it’s necessary. This doesn’t prevent the individual fans to create their own personal Canon, and in fact I am the first to do so. But I think the existence of a stable and consistent official continuity is important.

Why

Why not? Canon isn’t the biggest deal ever, but it’s nice to have everything in a fictional universe be roughly consistent with each other. That way, you get to avoid the confusion that comes with insanely tangled multiverse timelines, and every installment feels like it “matters” in the grand scheme of things.

I guess I just don’t see the value in that. I don’t think either Star Wars EU does anything especially interesting with the overarching history of the galaxy so I don’t think we’d lose much by moving away from an overarching continuity. It feels like more of a novelty that pretty wildly different stories have continuity between each other.

I’m not big on the idea of all these interconnected stories myself. I think a better approach is to let different creators do different types of stories however they want to. If they want to form a continuity, the only rule should be no contradicting other stories. I think at its inception, Lucasfilm marketing wanted the EU to work like this, but what ended up happening was authors started trying to interweave everything. Miss this one book that came out three years ago? Well looks like you’re not going to understand what this is all about then.

Its also one of my least favorite parts about comic books. Miss a story or read one you didn’t like? Too bad, here it is in another series and you have to deal with it here now! This is a very niche thing but still, I personally hate not having a full story like that. This is going to seem bizarre to some but I did not like the famous Thrawn trilogy. I do however, somewhat enjoy Jedi Academy. It isn’t a big deal, but it is annoying to see Thrawn and Dark Empire Palpatine brought up in Jedi Academy, a trilogy that I think should be its entirely own story.

Just my opinions of course.

Post
#1504169
Topic
<strong>Star Wars: Rogue Squadron</strong> (theatrical film for 2023) - a general discussion thread
Time

“Never gonna get it, never gonna get it,”

This is a shame. 😕 I really was looking forward to this film, and with the new Disney schedule it looks like we won’t be seeing (at least for the next 5 years.)

I love the idea of these standalone stories from different directors, all with their different styles and ideas. I wonder if the Star Wars standalone idea is truly dead now, since it looks like there may be drama with Taika Waititi’s film too. We also can’t forget that the Kenobi and Boba Fett movies were also scrapped, partially due to the focus on making Dinsey+ series (which they obviously became.)

Post
#1504165
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

StarkillerAG said:

Yeah, agreed with everyone else on Filoni’s lack of subtlety. It’s hard to take Clone Wars fans who gush about how “dark and mature” the show is seriously when the show literally states the moral at the beginning like an episode of GI Joe. Filoni has some good ideas, but he needs someone like Favreau to moderate his more childish impulses.

I’m glad you mention the Clone Wars. I think the show is good, don’t get me wrong, but every time someone talks about how “dark” it is I raise an eyebrow. Even in the show’s “darker” episodes, like the Umbara arc, its all intercut with goofy antics or fun action/adventure to try to keep the kids entertained. And I don’t have any issue with stories being aimed more towards kids or whatever, but I’m not going to pretend Clone Wars as a whole was “dark and mature.”

This ties into something I’ve been thinking about lately when it comes to media and entertainment, “what makes something for kids?”

Post
#1504108
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

NeverarGreat said:

There’s the ever more common perception that Star Wars has always been made primarily for children, and I think Filoni has a lot to do with crafting that perception. Dude has like two types of stories to tell (doing favors and found family), and he tells them over and over without any subtlety or complexity. It’s not that these stories are bad, but at a certain point it feels like Star Wars should be more than that.

100% agree. Too much found family/lone wolf and cub for me lol.

Post
#1503664
Topic
Unpopular Opinion Thread
Time

Here’s one: I don’t think Dave Filoni is “saving Star Wars”.

Rebels was his birthchild and it was very well done. He also was a good fit as Supervising Director on Clone Wars I feel. But going into Clone Wars S7 and beyond I’ve had trouble connecting to anything he’s been a part of.

Mandalorian started off pretty decent, though I don’t enjoy his take on Mandalorians (mostly because he tried bringing over elements of EU Mandos, which I also am not crazy about.) Season Two was a bumpy ride but still enjoyable for the most part, the abundance of grand cameos took me out of it.

The final season of Clone Wars was disastrous I thought, and completely took Ahsoka’s character off the rails. Its the small things about how she is portrayed I don’t like there. She acts hypocritically and the way the episodes are edited and planned out make her look like she’s always in the right, with no consequences or realization either.

And while he wasn’t the prime director on stuff like Boba Fett, his influence over these side projects and the MCU-like nature of the “Mando-verse” is something I am strongly against and I’ve already clocked out of these series.

But here’s the thing, I’m not trying to “hate” on him or whatever. I do think he is a very talented and creative individual who cares deeply about the stories, characters and fans. I just disagree with his vision most times and his stuff just isn’t for me and that’s okay.

There’s always going to be different types of stories for different people. I love Solo. I love Visions. I thought Fallen Order was excellent. There are things like Rogue Squadron that I am looking forward to.

Post
#1503659
Topic
What is your personal canon?
Time

I sort of see the saga as having different “timelines.”

So for example, there’s the OT timeline which is just the OT, another is the OT and the Ewok movies. One has the PT, and the altered variants of the OT. One variant of that includes The Clone Wars (2008). Another variant is only altered OT + Solo.

Now for my “personal canon” I see it this way:
The Clone Wars (2008), Solo, custom altered OT, Ewoks.

I’ve also got one I like to use for EU stories I enjoy and it is as follows:
Custom altered OT, The Han Solo adventures by Brian Daley, Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, Shadows of the Empire, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, The Jedi Academy Trilogy (?).

I don’t really like the idea of canon, I tend to just focus on what I do enjoy and pair it up with whatever fits thematically if that makes sense.

Post
#1503656
Topic
The Star Wars canon saga as only the OT?
Time

rocknroll41 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

Maybe we’d have been better off if Lucas just made “The Star Wars” into a novel series. Who knows, maybe it would’ve been adapted into a set of movies?

Maybe. Sometimes I consider the sw77 novelization (The Adventures of Luke Skywalker), Splinter of the Mind’s Eye and the three Han Solo Adventures books to be “true” Star Wars.

I could roll with this lol.

Post
#1503054
Topic
Rank The Indiana Jones Films
Time
  1. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull - I could watch this movie anytime I think. It will probably always be my #1, with the rest moving up and down depending on how I feel at the time.

  2. The Last Crusade - Favorite part is the River Phoenix flashback. The banter throughout the film is good too.

  3. Temple of Doom - It fell on my rankings recently but I was going back through some of it and it lands pretty well. Its also a classic.

  4. Raiders of the Lost Ark - Once more, a classic.

Post
#1503053
Topic
The Star Wars canon saga as only the OT?
Time

That’s an entirely valid way to look at it and one I’ll probably circle back to at one point. I completely see how ESB and ROTJ add to the world of SW, but it’s not worth it to me.

Right now, I’m just so burned out on franchise filmmaking that I relish in the idea of standalones. Leaving on a high note > overstaying your welcome. Some people see ROTJ or ROTS as that high note, I see Star Wars as that high note in this moment. One excellent movie and that’s it. ESB isn’t a Highlander II or Jurassic Park II: The Lost World, but it’s decisions led to far worse things to come for the franchise.

In recent times I’ve come to feel the same way about films, I really don’t like these drawn out series. That’s why I’m not the biggest fan of TV show formats. And while they are still franchise movies, I’m excited by the prospect of these new standalone Star Wars films. That way I can take them or leave them when there’s one I don’t like, and it’s not dependent on other films. For example, I wasn’t that big a fan of Rogue One, but absolutely LOVE Solo!

For the Original Trilogy, I view it more as a standalone film that happened to get two sequels. I think I already said it on this thread, but each of the films feel so distinct, you can tell they weren’t all planned together and all three seek to accomplish different things.

Now, I grew up with the prequels, but I find myself hardly ever watching them because they, way more that the OT, demand to be followed upon. I’m not sure the best way to put it, so I hope that makes sense. Its one reason I think I love the Indiana Jones movies so much. All four are all pretty self contained, and are their own story with shared characters, not trying to tell an elaborate overarching epic. I wish more film series were like this.

Post
#1499520
Topic
The Star Wars canon saga as only the OT?
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

Sometimes I only want the 1977 original to be canon. Maybe I’ve soured on the long-term issues around Vader being Luke’s father, IDK.

I feel that way sometimes. The film certainly has its own distinct properties. Plus it was being made under the impression it might be the only Star Wars anyway and though some plot lines were left open just in case, it really does wrap itself up pretty well.

Post
#1499442
Topic
One thing you wish were still canon
Time

Anchorhead said:

The entire franchise is make believe.
Lucas and/or Disney deciding what’s real vs otherwise is laughable. That levels ranking they came up with is even more so. If you like a series of novels, read them. That’s canon for you. If you don’t like something, ignore it.

Your imagination decides the story that moves you and the world you escape into when you read. Same goes for the films, games, or TV shows. When you were kids, did you stop playing with the toys or figures if someone said you weren’t imagining your own story correctly? Of course not.

Why in the world would you allow Lucas or Disney to do that now? Man, some of the takes that Lucas came up with and then claimed they were the real story were idiotic. Darth Vader as a little kid building 3PO? That is spit-take level ridiculous.

I really like the Zahn novels. So for me, Luke grows up, marries Mara Jade, and they have adventures fighting the good fight. That’s my Luke Skywalker. It sure as hell isn’t some old kook who tosses his lightsaber over his shoulder and then goes off to milk a giant sea creature for a snack. WTF?

There are hundreds of Star Wars novels and stories out there. Read and enjoy. They’re every bit as real as the rest of the GFFA.

Perfectly said. Too often people take these stories like they’re some sort of holy sacred text with religious truth. They fight and argue over what’s “real” and what’s “canon” and I firmly believe it is ruining the way people enjoy and experience entertainment and fiction.

Post
#1498250
Topic
Did G. Lucas ever intend to portray the Jedi as a flawed institution in the prequels? Or was it added later in the EU?
Time

I think this is a very valid point of view that I tend to agree with. I’m sure people will chime in arguing which interpretation is the right one, and it may be right, but it definitely feels like it has been muddled, arguably by Lucas himself as time went on.

But I personally think the ambiguity feeds into the Force’s religious connotations in-universe pretty nicely, since religions have fought wars over which interpretation is right, with either side claiming theirs is the Truth.

Very good point. For better or for worse, and like a real religion, the Force and the Jedi have so many different interpretations.