of_Kaiburr_and_Whills

screams in the void said:

I envy you getting to read this series all the way through for the first time and look forward to your further reviews . Great scans by the way ! I think you are in for a real treat . While there were some duds along the way , the series was a hell of a lot of fun and also had some very serious and poignant stories ,especially between TESB and ROTJ , as well as post ROTJ ,with issues like 92 and 86 . Anyway ,as you go along , I think you will find that a lot of these comics fit very well around the OT films . The first time I read the issues between Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back , when I got to watching the scene in Empire when Luke says farewell to Han ,just before the battle of Hoth ,that scene had a lot more resonance for me . Due to the comics filling in the 3 year gap, I really got the sense that these two had a long history of adventures together . It’s also fun seeing the writers come close to adding things that ended up in the later OT films after TESB , going so far as a forest world , small furry aliens on hang gliders , speeder bikes ,and even what basically amounted to a second Death Star ( with some modifications mandated by Lucasfilm ) !

I’ve read some brief details about some of those post ESB stories and I’m really looking forward to those. Especially Leia and Shira Brie’s stories. From what I’ve read so far of the earlier issues, there’s already a decent number of similarities to Empire! It’s very fun seeing what sorts of ideas and scenarios the writers may have presciently included.

I’ve been a bit busy lately, but I’ve managed to read up to issue #24. Let me just say- I’ve been having a blast! It’s classic Star Wars with classic comic book goodness! What’s not to like?
Anyway, here are my thoughts and feelings… Spoilers for 40+ year old comics ahead!

Issues 11-15: Doom World

Continuing up on a plot thread from Issue #7, we see Han, Leia, and Chewie captured by the fearsome, speedo-wearing pirate, Crimson Jack! Meanwhile, Luke crash-lands on a water world and is caught between two warring factions, one of which being the dreaded serpent masters!

Though I did not enjoy this story-arc as much as the last one, it was still woven together wonderfully, and I loved how Goodwin kept upping the ante with each turn of the page. The space battle and star duel in issue 15 were especially exciting.

Which brings me to one of the key players in this storyline- Jolli the pirate. I’ll be honest- I did not particularly like Jolli’s characterization for much of this arc. She’s overly obsessed with men in an old fashioned and cliché way. However, the final issue of the story shows more of Jolli’s backstory and has her partake in a tragic yet heroic sacrifice to save our heroes, thus elevating the character.

Also, this was the first story arc to feature work by the great Carmine Infantino! I mentioned this briefly last time, but Infantino’s art at this point had greatly changed and became very stylistic. I would say the art is an acquired taste, but it definitely gives theses early stories a unique identity among other Star Wars comics. I didn’t mind it at all, even if some panels look off.

Issue 16: The Hunter

A new antagonist is revealed in Valance the Hunter- a mysterious bounty hunter with a strange personal vendetta against Luke Skywalker!

When it comes to Valance, we really only get a taste of what’s to come with this issue. From what we get here, he’s your typical Bronze Age, overly dramatic Marvel comics character with a tragic backstory. He reminds me of Punisher and the Terminator combined- a comparison I have seen others make. I’m interested to see where his story takes him in future issues.

This issue also sees the return of Amaiza Foxtrain, Jaxxon, Don-Wan Quixote (albeit only brefly), and Jimm the Starkiller Kid from the Aduba-3 arc. I appreciate this little inclusion. As far as I know, these characters don’t pop up much throughout the rest of the series.

Lastly, there’s another cool space battle between Valence and Jaxxon/Amaiza. So far, the space battles have been very fun to see.

Issue 17: Crucible

This issue is hands down my favorite so far.

In it, we see Luke reminisce about his past on Tatooine- particularly of a recent party which got crashed by Tusken Raiders!

I really love seeing more of Luke’s time growing up before he left and became a galactic savior. One particularly great moment was seeing him daydream about a life of adventure and excitement. I also love seeing Biggs again! It’s always nice to see more stories featuring him.

There isn’t a whole lot else to say about it since it was a straightforward issue, but I did want to point out that a soldier from the local Tatooine Militia does appear. I thought this was a cool inclusion since most EU material tends to overlook them.

Issues 18-23: The Wheel

In one of the series’ most well-known storylines, the Star Warriors are caught on a dangerous space station while two mad men of power scheme and plot against each other!

Once again, Goodwin spins an engaging tale of drama, tension, and ever-increasing stakes. One of my favorite moments included Han’s quick thinking in the zero-g arena, where he secretly hides a ray shield under his shirt in order to fake his death at the hands of Chewie- the only other contestant remaining in their gladiator duel to the death.

Another great moment was Darth Vader’s menacing and long-awaited return to the series. As soon as he enters the page, the story takes on a whole new level of edge. Also, Luke trapped in a comatose state and confronting Vader in his inner mind was nice. I liked seeing him confront his fear.

Another notable aspect was the idea of friendship blooming in unexpected ways. Even a sleezy creeps like Senator Grayshade finds friendship in the form of Mastercom, the Wheel’s central computer.

Lastly, Infantino’s art continues to be dynamic and energetic. However, the one piece I want to highlight is the cover for Issue #19. So stylized and eye-catching. Very cool.

Like many others, I’ve lost so much enthusiasm for Star Wars over the past few years. In an attempt to revive my excitement for the saga, I’ve decided to dive head first into the old Marvel Star Wars series.

I had read a few of these stories years ago, but found myself somewhat struggling with the older style they had. However, since then, I’ve read dozens of comics from the golden, silver, and bronze ages, so I’ve become much more accustomed to the writing, art, and formatting.

Why’d I chose these comics to fix my Star Wars slump though? Certainly there are other, much more dramatic and epic Star Wars tales that would be more enthralling, yes? Mainly, I’m looking forward to the feeling of infinite possibility that these stories, like many other Star Wars books and comics of its time, possess. So many Star Wars stories going into the era of modern EU feel so regimented and by-the-numbers. A lot of modern stories also get dreary or overly caught up in lore details.

In short- I want something fun.

Another factor that appeals to me is the fact that many of the earlier issues were created by comics legends Archie Goodwin and Carmine Infantino. I love Infantino’s work on comics like Adam Strange (I know his style changed greatly over time), and I think Goodwin/Williamson’s Star Wars newspaper stint is one of the best Star Wars comic runs. These comics by Marvel obviously aren’t underrated, but I feel they are often overlooked by other EU stories. In reading through them and posting about them here, I hope to contribute to keeping their legacy known- as legitimate further adventures of the Star Wars saga, and not just some weird goofy stories from the 1970/80s that are looked at as only historical curiosity.

Now- finally- I’ll share my thoughts on the stories themselves. Spoilers for 40+ year old comics ahead!

ISSUES 1-6: STAR WARS

Not a whole lot to say about these first initial issues since- as most everyone is aware- they are an adaptation. I do like having a visualized version of the Tosche Station scene though. Always love seeing Biggs! And hey- like the original cut scene, it’s pretty evident that Luke and Biggs were NOT going into the Imperial Academy! (Why go into the Imperial Academy and FEAR being drafted by the Empire???)

ISSUES 7-10: Saga of the Starhoppers

This next arc finds Han and Chewie down on their luck seeking cash and finding themselves getting more than they bargained for! Magnificent Seven/Seven Samurai is a plot that’s been done so often in Star Wars media now, but these comics were the first to do it- and do it right. (I liked the TCW episode they did as an homage too.)

I really like seeing Han take on a leadership role for a bunch of misfit pyshcos. I got some big Guardians of the Galaxy/Suicide Squad vibes. Also, the giant monster from issues 9-10 is crazy fun. Pure chaos- I love it. Later EU retconned this beast to being the creation of some Sith Lord- LAME! It’s just a giant green lizard monster and that’s all it needs to be. As I alluded to above, that’s one thing I love about this series. Not everything is connected to some major faction/facet of the saga. It’s a big galaxy out there!

Other small details I thought worth pointing out: First, I like the insectoid priest in #7. Not only is he a holy person, but he can fight. Also, if I’m not mistaken, issue 10 features the first time Han uses a lightsaber!

And how could I forget the elephant- er, giant rabbit- in the room! Jaxxon, despite having one of the poorest designs for an alien species in Star Wars- is actually pretty cool. He is great in a fight and has quite the attitude. Also, if his appearance is too off-putting for you, think of it like this: Jaxxon is not actually a big green rabbit- that’s just the only way Han knew how to describe his look to Luke when recounting the adventure later on. “Well, y’see he had short greenish fur covering his body. He also had whiskers and big ear-looking things- like a rabbit! It was the wildest thing Luke.” “A giant rabbit, Han? Are you sure you weren’t on spice?”

That’s all I have to say for these comics so far. I’ve been trying to read an issue every day or so as I slowly accumulate the collected paperbacks. I’ll have more to report soon enough!

Superweapon VII said:

The Jedi as individuals aren’t bad (mostly). The Jedi as an institution, on the other hand…

If you’re interested, I just commented in the ‘Did Lucas intend for the Jedi to be flawed’ thread. It was semi-prompted by this comment of yours.

This comment was somewhat prompted by Superweapon’s comment in the ‘Unpopular Opinion Thread’ about the Jedi Order being a bad institution. I started thinking about one topic in particular and decided it would fit better here, especially since I’d be on topic on this discussion and because this comment became quite lengthy.

I look more positively on the Jedi Order, but there are certain issues I can’t just overlook. For example: the fact that the Jedi Order sends children like Ahsoka into warfare is problematic. In the real world this would be a terrible thing to do- a notion that should apply to fiction as well.

However, the problem I have is that the narrative of shows like The Clone Wars never frames Ahsoka’s service as a bad thing nor are any plot points ever brought up regarding the subject (at least nothing that I recall). Lucas never seems to mention this subject in behind the scenes interviews either. So, is it something intended or not? Are we not supposed to view this action as a flaw of the Order? Or do we simply accept that since it’s apparently not something the narrative is trying to convey, then it’s not important…? If it is a flaw, why isn’t a point made of it in the stories?

This begs the question- how much should be explained to us? How much should the story beat us over the head with its themes? Also, if the creators never mentioned it, is it really a problem, or is simply an oversight on their behalf? Was the presence of Ahsoka on a battlefield never thought about to all its conclusions? Is this action an example of the war forcing Jedi do to things they would never normally consider? Fighting in the war was clearly not an idea the Order relished, but they couldn’t have at least made a deal with the Senate not to enlist children either, right? Is the Senate also at fault for not bringing this up as a problem?

How many questions can be raised without clear idea of the answers? Is Ahsoka’s presence in a war a sign of the writers overlooking the repercussions and all the meaning that such an action implies/entails, or was it purposely made this way to get us thinking?

Because, if the Jedi are “the most moral” beings in the galaxy, why choose this option even if they wouldn’t have wanted to? I’ve heard some suggest that because The Clone Wars was a kids show, having one protagonist be a child is one way of connecting the show to the intended audience, but surely the writers could have found some logical workaround for such a plot point, or at least explained it. Kids shows should still have some sort of logic, yes? Or is having kids fight in wars something normal in the Star Wars galaxy?

Am I overthinking this?

Spartacus01 said:

I don’t think that the Jedi deserved the Purge. But I believe that they needed to be reformed, because I am of the opinion that some of their dogmas were wrong. As I said in another post, I think that the Jedi were good people with good intentions, and I believe that Anakin had serious psychological problems that needed to be fixed. However, I also believe that he can’t be 100% blamed for what happened, and I think that the Jedi made some mistakes with him. Therefore, I think that the downfall of the Jedi was kind of everyone’s fault. It was equally fault of Anakin, Palpatine, and the Jedi themselves. The same goes for Anakin’s fall to the Dark Side. In my opinion, it is way too simplistic to believe that the Jedi did nothing wrong and it was all Anakin and Palpatine’s fault, just as it is way too simplistic to believe that Anakin did nothing wrong and it was all fault of the Jedi Order.

As you may know, I personally view the Jedi in a more positive light, but I respect your take and understand the reasoning.

In fact, one point I think we can both possibly agree on is that the Order was far too naive in believing a former Jedi like Dooku could never cause harm. Perhaps it goes to show how much they trusted Dooku. Perhaps it goes to show how rare it is for Jedi to fall. Either way, justifiably or not, it was a possibility they overlooked. It was a mistake they made.

To chime in again, I can understand the argument that the Jedi can be both correct about Anakin and the Force while being simultaneously flawed in their methods.

But for me, one of the big issues is that because of their flaws, whether perceived or legitimate, some people will say that the purge was justified and that the Jedi deserved it. (With an attitude not of sorrow or pity or even disappointment, but more like contempt.)

Mind you, I’m not talking about the idea that their mistakes could have created a domino effect that lead to their own demise - but rather the notion that they actually deserved to die such gruesome deaths, that it meant as a good thing to be celebrated, and that Lucas intended this idea.

Now, do we have the Jedi reform to overcome these flaws? Fair enough. I understand. But executed and mass murdered? Huh? I can’t agree with that.

Now with all that being said, I wouldn’t say the ‘Jedi deserved to die’ camp in particular is strong enough to make this take an unpopular opinion. This is just where my mind went and it’s probably not where anyone was going with this discussion though. I just thought it would be worth it to address.

(accidental double post)

I prefer Boba and Jango Fett not being Mandalorians.

ToSpartacus: I agree. Duel of the Heroes (I think was the title) is much better in my opinion.

Also, to Vladius: I agree with everything you’ve said about the prequel Jedi specifically.

Okay, so last time I commented here with my thoughts on the trilogy, I had only read them once years ago. (Except for Heir, which I’d read three times.) Well, I re-read them all a little bit ago and am just now remembering to share my thoughts. I meant to do this earlier but didn’t get to it.

I still think Mara Jade is the best thing to come from the trilogy. She is a great character, and to me she stands out far beyond Thrawn.

Dark Force Rising, which I always had trouble re-reading, was more enjoyable than I remember. I always struggled getting through it, but it really does pay off. It might also be the most grounded of the three based on what I remember.

Characterization of the OT heroes is on point. Zahn did a great job capturing them. Luke doesn’t feel overpowered either, which is great.

I am not the biggest fan of ysalamiri or Jedi clones. Having Luke fight his own clone feels a little cheap. I can get over it though. Zahn’s choice to have the clones be unstable and deranged makes it acceptable enough.

Absolutely NOT a fan of Zahn explaining away the cave on Dagobah.

Overall, a fair enough trilogy.

Superweapon VII said:

I think KJA did an alright job on the series after Veitch left. It’s probably his best writing on SW, full stop.

For sure.

I dislike how condensed the events of the Great Hyperspace and Sith Wars are, though. I don’t know if this was a creative choice on his part or if there was a mandate from on-high forcing him to tell the whole story within a few finite miniseries, but it makes these wars feel smaller and less impactful than they should’ve been.

A more grand-scaled conflict is a missed opportunity. An editorial mandate seems quite likely.

I wonder if Veitch and Anderson were signed on for a specific amount of issues beforehand or if they only got deals to do one arc at a time?

Okay, so I actually just finished reading this series and was preparing to write up my own little review so this thread is perfect timing!

I really liked it. It’s an epic in every sense of the word: it features war, love, loss, revenge, and redemption. It’s corny, dated, and cheesy at some points, but Tales is so incredibly human.

One of my favorite aspects was the idea of what it means to be a Jedi- what the spirit of a Jedi truly is. It’s about the choices you make daily. It’s about facing the consequences of your actions. It’s about accepting the past and knowing you can’t change it, but making a choice to act and make things better in the moment.

Ulic Qel-Droma’s story was a rollercoaster, and Exar Kun was a cool villain. Again, the series has its clunky moments, but it made me feel things like pity, disappointment, and concern for the characters.

The art is mostly fine. It’s mostly in 90’s styles but it’s fair. There’s only one issue or so where I thought the art was poor. David Roach’s art in The Saga of Nomi Sunrider Part 2 and Chris Grosset’s work in the Redemption arc were my favorites. The aesthetics of the series was perfect.

Also, Redemption was fantastic! It was so incredibly done. Poetic and with lots of meaningful imagery and themes.

To summarize, Tales of the Jedi was a worthy read despite some of its quirks.

Spartacus01 said:

Thanks for the clarification. It would seem certain YouTubers have done a great deal of damage to the fandom haven’t they?

Superweapon VII said:

Yeah, it’s a neat coda to the SW Universe. I generally eschew 1999+ EU, mainly because it’s a headache trying to parse through it, but there’re quite a few Tales stories which can slot in my canon with no problem.

I don’t blame you. It’s hard for me to reconcile all the pre-1999 and post 99’ stories too.

Spartacus01 said:

I suppose I’m the only one who also accepts the post-1999 EU? Well, even though I still don’t like anything set after the Young Jedi Knights series. Lol.

I accept quite a few post-99’ stories, such as Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Shadows of Mindor, Kenobi (with some slight modifications to chapter 35), Genndy’s Clone Wars, The Force Unleashed (mostly for nostalgia), some Prequel-era comics like Acts of War, some stuff from Star Wars Tales, etc.

Like I mentioned above, my issue is trying to believe it all works together. Some people take the six Lucas films and six seasons of Clone Wars as primary source material, while blending in EU stuff that works for them. Some do it with just the six films. Others just stick with the OT, or even the first movie. (Something I find incredibly interesting due to the infinite possibilities.)

For me, ultimately, I’d put most if not all of my favorite EU stories as myths or Legends about the Star Wars universe. So, something like Genndy’s Clone Wars happened, but who knows if it happened exactly as shown in the series. It’s similar to the view some fans of new canon have towards Legends material- it happened, but not necessarily how the events of the story depict it. This mostly helps explain away contradictions and tonal/thematic differences between stories.

And again, this is just when I’m viewing all the Lucas stuff as the prime directive- which, to be fair, is most of the time. I have a little bubble in my mind where all, or at least a fair chunk of, the pre-99’ stuff happens and it’s “real.” And to make clear, I rarely dabble with nu-Lucasfilm era stuff. One of the exceptions I have is the Legends of Luke Skywalker Manga. It’s a fun one for me as, again, the whole premise is that its a bunch of legends and stories- who knows to what degree of truth they are. At the end of the day, they’re all stories. I’m not too worried about any sort of official canon.

Oh, and also… anything past New Jedi Order is a no-go for me… (And I’m pretty on the fence about NJO as it is.)

Superweapon VII said:

Alright, I’ve decided to commit myself to a personal canon. God have mercy on my immortal soul.

Lol. May the canon gods judge us lightly.

Actually, this pretty much sums up my Pre-Prequel timeline. Though I’m still in the process of determining my personal Star Wars mythos, so far I have two that I hop between depending on my mood.

I’d like to suggest Storyteller from Star Wars Tales #19. It came out in like '05 or so but has no prequel references whatsoever and it’s just a neat little story anyway. (I recommend it to everyone who sees this comment!)

Well, other than what Superweapon VII has already added, I’d recommend the Brian Daley Han Solo Adventures and L. Neil Smith Lando Adventures.

They don’t have any connection to prequel-era stuff and are quite fun and action packed, just expect some weird stuff from the latter trilogy.

I’m sure some might also share this opinion, but I prefer when Jedi don’t get married or have kids. I can accept that some would here and there, but I’d like it to be kept at a minimum.

I think Vader taunting Luke by threatening to turn Leia evil can work even if they aren’t siblings. Luke still cares for her greatly as a close friend and ally, so that would surely tick him off.

And about Leia having the Force, I guess it depends how we decide one has the Force. It technically exists in all beings, and we see through the prequels that the amount of receptivity or natural attunement one has with it is brought through midichlorians. Of course, if an individual has enough, they become a Jedi. I think it’s entirely possible Leia could have some natural receptivity to the Force even if she weren’t a Skywalker.

Now I don’t necessarily want to start a whole debate here over midichlorians, force sensitivity, Lucas, the prequels, etc. So I won’t go too much further with this, I just think it can go both ways is what I’m saying.

But to preserve the way Lucas wrapped up the saga and the way expanded material has built upon it, its easier to just remove the kisses, yes.

G&G-Fan said:

alternatively just remove Luke and Leia kissing (both times).

that’s better for me personally. Leia being Luke’s sister is just too iconic and ingrained at this point. Luke and Leia’s conversation in ROTJ is so good and her being used as emotional leverage by Vader also makes it all worth it.

That works for me too.

Come to think of it, I wonder if this was ever an idea Lucas had for any OT re-releases.

Okay, so I’m over here looking outside thinking “Why does it look so dark out? The sun is shining brightly and there’s not a cloud in the sky. Have I been looking at screens for too long today or am I going crazy? It just looks… darker somehow.”

Then I learned the solar eclipse was happening today.

So my eyes are fine. I still might be a little crazy, but that’s irrelevant right now.

‘Star Wars: De-Incest Edition’

Leia is not Luke’s brother- snip out all the pieces of dialogue that say so.

At the top of my head only includes: Some of the stuff Ghost Obi-Wan tells Luke on Dagobah, some of what Luke says to Leia on Endor, and the baby Leia in Episode III (which I know isn’t OT, but still).

None of this would diminish Leia’s role in any of the films and would remove the incest-y details.

Just finished Black Amazon of Mars by the late great Leigh Brackett.

Nothing groundbreaking or thought provoking, but really fun and pulpy all the way through. The oldest piece of fiction I’ve read (save for snippets of The Odyssey and Inferno) is The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury, so perhaps I need more experience to gauge this correctly, but Black Amazon feels way ahead of its time.

Next up is Superman: For All Seasons by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale.

Superweapon VII said:

Glad he got the cut. He looks like one of those lame rubber forehead aliens from TNG.

After Utris failed to get the part in Star Wars, he auditioned for Star Trek where things went much better for him.

I don’t always listen to Rebel Force Radio, but I tuned in to today’s show and learned there was apparently an alien guard for Cloud City that never made it into the final movie. The EU named him “Utris M’Toc.”

“You’ve taken your first steps into a larger world.”

Welcome to the site! Glad to hear you’ve enjoyed the films.

Ranking these movies is so tricky for me because I enjoy them all and it varies on what I’m in the mood for. Instead I’ll just list my personal critical rankings.

Raiders 5/5, Temple and Crusade 4/5, Skull and Dial 3/5.

Dial was fine I thought. Not as remarkable, but not bad.