FFWD to 03:10 (if it's showing counting down, then 01:30)
Question: What was the full title of the original Star Wars.
Answer: Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope
Announcer: I don't know if she's right or wrong but it sounds good.
Transforming this thread from a specific credit issue to a General topic on things like the Credits. Suggested was to include Leader and other ephemeral film specific elements. Feel free to toss out idea for other things which are not part of the main film but could help identify print variations and sources.
Credits Film & 'Versions'
Star Wars
'Draft' - 1977 opening day prints
pre-ANH widescreen bootleg (mthr)
pre-ANH bootleg 'PS77-78?' (AntcuFaalb)
16mm English (PuggoGrande)
16mm English (Catnap)
'Refined' - 1977 June? wider release prints
16mm Swedish (Puggo Stjärnornas Krig)
1982 CED (Starkiller) (negative1)
1982 LaserDisc (Starkiller)
1982 Video Rental Library VHS (Starkiller)
U.S. 1988 Star Wars Trilogy VHS
1989 Derann Super8
U.S. Star Wars LaserDisc (DJFS)
U.S. Star Wars Standard Play Collection LaserDisc (DJ_Std_Play)
U.S. 1993 Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection LaserDisc (DJDC)
1994 Widescreen VHS (Effy11)
U.S. 1995 Star Wars Widescreen Edition THX "FACES" (DJ_Faces)
U.S. 1995 VHS Star Wars Fullscreen Edition THX "FACES" (DJ_Faces_FS)
2006 DVD (GOUT)
pre-ANH cropped bootleg (MeBeJedi, Starkiller, Treadwell)
TV UK ITV - 1980's Credit Fade Change
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Early-print-variations-X-Wing-takeoff-End-Credits-etc/post/605211/#TopicPost605211
'Special Edition' - 1997
UK Satellite TV Digi Betacam (Flunk)
2004 DVD
2007 German HDTV Broadcast
'super8 simplified' - First five credits, '1977 TWENTIETH CENTURY-FOX FILM CORPORATION, 'The End'
1978 super-8
'Special Edition revised font' -
U.S. 1997 Widescreen SW Trilogy Special Edition Box Set (JFSE) Preservation
Empire Strikes Back
'Original' - 1980
2006 DVD (GOUT)
ESB_TP (VideoCollector)
'Special Edition' - 1997
2004 DVD
'super8 simplified' - Credits split, moved before film except one image 'THE END LUCASFILM LTD. (LFL) 1980' [new font]
1978 super-8
'Special Edition revised font' -
U.S. 1997 Widescreen SW Trilogy Special Edition Box Set (JFSE)
Return of the Jedi
'RotJ Original' - 1983
2006 DVD (GOUT)
RotJ_TP (VideoCollector, Treadwell)
'Special Edition' - 1997
2004 DVD
'Special Edition revised font' -
U.S. 1997 Widescreen SW Trilogy Special Edition Box Set (JFSE)
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
Leader Film & 'Variations'
Star Wars
16mm English (PuggoGrande)
Empire Strikes Back
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:: Previous First Post ::
As Star Wars's initial popularity grew and new prints were being created to meet the demand, LFL modified the credits. This thread is to discuss possibilities for the reasoning behind when and why. (and whatever else comes to mind along the way)
Because we haven't done a full accounting of the credit this change is being identified by a modification to John Williams' credit. We've noticed two versions a 'tight' and 'spaced' version.
JW 'tight' Credit shows up in the english 16mm and a widescreen pre-ANH bootleg:
PuggoGrande english 16mm
JW 'spaced' Credit shows up in most other versions of SW. The following versions have been confirmed as 'spaced': Swedish 16mm, CED, english LaserDisc, 1988 VHS, Derann super8, 2004 DVD, 2006 DVD, cropped pre-ANH bootleg.
2006 DVD
- If you can confirm a different version from the ones listed above, please let us know.
When did the credits get changed?
This change could have existed as a variation on opening day. To meet the requirements of different theaters, 3 different audio versions were available. (35mm Dolby Stereo, 70mm Dolby Stereo, Academy Mono)
Article: http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/star_wars/index.htm
Because the creation of 70mm and 35mm prints had different lead times, there is the possibilty that the credit change could only be incorporated into one of them for opening day. Uncertain how to verify this.
LFL had many opportunities after first-week engagements to make changes. New prints were added to the continuous run of the film in this first year. Michael Coate has researched/documented the number of theaters and number of prints from publicity and news reports:
http://www.fromscripttodvd.com/star_wars_a_day_long_remembered_trivia.htm
Release schedule/total number of engagements during weekend beginning…
May 27: 43
Jun 03: 2 (45)
Jun 10: 3 (48)
Jun 17: 109 (157)
Jun 24: 203 (360)
Jul 01: 136 (496)
Jul 08: 81 (577)
Jul 15: 51 (628)
Jul 22: 183 (811)
Jul 29: 145 (956)
Aug 05: 88 (1,044)
Number of engagements at widest point of distribution: 1,098 (original); 1,756* (1978 re-release)
The 1981 re-release because of the addition of the 'Episode IV' has been the baseline for all home versions since, and they contain the 'spaced' version.
This credit change shows up in both versions (tight and spaced) in the 16mm and pre-ANH bootleg variety, meaning it took place prior to the 1981 re-release. Since the bootlegs are nebulous, the production time frame of the 16mm versions (english and swedish) are a possible clue to when this change occurred.
A second hypothesis would have to do with the creation of the foreign language prints. (as the 16mm english/swedish prints differ) According to Rinzler's Making of Star Wars book (pg 299) the foreign language dubs were completed 'By October 13, 1977'. (book mentions 20 sound mixes)
Another thought is they created a special trailer for the 1978 re-release which mentioned the Academy Awards, maybe while creating that new celluloid they also updated the credits? This is a similar time frame to the foreign language dub prints...
Since we haven't fully digested all the credit revisions, we're also looking to find resources which have full credits and were published early on. For instance:
http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/program18.jpg
Previous places this topic was discussed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/post/508632/#TopicPost508632
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-coming-to-Blu-Ray-UPDATE-May-4th-2011/post/509688/#TopicPost509688
Harmy wrote: I see your point none but if we start demanding the "original" version of the end credits, while the other one was also made in 77 and is pretty much the same and definitely doesn't effectively change the film in any way, we would be totally playing into the cards of those who claim we are lunatics.
I don't mind playing/being the lunatic. But i'm also not interested in demanding anything. Sure if I was running this site, my petition would now be asking for the raw digital scans done for the SE. My interest in SW right now is to see a really phucked up degraded celluloid mess:
"Star Wars : The Ravages of Time Edition"
But i'm also of the opinion that the fans will preserve SW in the way society wants. So if LFL can give the public the raw resources, the public will finish the preserving. *nudge nudge wink wink*
The above little story was more to see the true colors of KenKraly2007. It was a thought exercise.
Harmy cont: I actually believe that if there were two different versions during the original theatrical run, the most true original is the one that was most widely seen.
The seeking of the true original is the spiritual zen thing right now for these forums. But with 3 audio's confirmed and possibly 2 visual versions....
At least with the audio there's some concrete proof leading back to the theaters equipment that day. To figure out on the visual side something similar we need to look at the pieces we've been allowed access to and draw conclusions. We just randomly started looking at the credits lately, and haven't really done a thorough review.
dark_jedi wrote: now we are looking at credits LOL, wow.
The JWFans are LOL'ng too:
http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20384
I'm sorry if these kind of observances add new wrinkles to these debates/projects.
SilverWook wrote: http://www.theforce.net/timetales/misc/arcana/arcana.asp
Thanks, need to go through the credits more closely. Was hoping that there would have been published somewhere a more or less same credit listing (centered sim spacing) and that would either have or not have this space. The Program scans (pg18) are reformatted. Need to do more poking around. Looked at the Art of SW (1979) and the JW credit is closer to the Special Edition version as the words 'Original Music' appears on the first line, they appear in the second line pre-SE.
*EDIT*
will start a thread in the Theatricals vs SE forum tomorrow, been clogging up multiple thread seeing if more eyeballs might provide an answer.
*EDIT*
here's the thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Pre-Re-release-Credit-Change/topic/12960/
adywan wrote: That is true with ESB too. The original version of ESB was the 70mm version as this was the one finished first and contained some differences from the 35mm print.
Rinzler's Making of ESB discusses this on page 333 'A Twist Ending' section. One of the shots they extended and added dialog to was of the farewell at the end. A shot of the Falcon docked under the cruiser was not in the 70mm. Anyone know of any others?
Baronlando wrote: There were only a measly few 70mm prints on opening day, out of 40-ish theaters, so if it's a 70mm/35mm difference, I guess they both count as opening day/original?
This is a possibilty, early prints verses prints made as popularity grew. The two opening day thing is definitely a complication in the 'original' debate.
So at this point it's throwing out ideas of ways to figure out why these differences occurred and thinking about other locations they might have showed up. Was thinking are there any books from 1977-81 in which the credits might have been written out. Maybe a press book, art book or the original novel? Were the screen plays printed out then? Another idea to follow through on, anyone know where 16mm prints were generally created from back then? Did they tend to be source from 70 or 35mm? Need to float the question to a larger audience see what comes back.
kenkraly2007 wrote: Alright I've seen the vhs release in 1990 , 1995 and the SE's in 97 both full and widescreen
*omit*
As far as releases I saw in the theaters the SE of A New Hope in 1997
Great, we're going to be hyper focusing on Star Wars for this exercise.
Caveat 1 : "Original Theatrical" Version is going to be defined as the complete movie from 20th Century Fox Logo to the MPAA logo as shown opening day May 25, 1977. Since most copies of this film exist in LFL vaults, private collections or have been destroyed by time, it's hard to nail down some of these facts. Which is why at this point, this hypothesis is still very much grey.
The Hypothesis : Most people have never seen the Original Theatrical version of Star Wars.
Most home versions of Star Wars have this:
It's the John Williams credit with a space before The London Symphony Orchestra. We've confirmed CED, some english laserdiscs, some english VHS, 2004 DVD, 2006 DVD, and the Swedish 16mm print, even a pre-ANH bootleg have this credit, and a later Derann 16mm print also. (thanks SilverWook)
But then what the phuck is this:
This is a 16mm english print. A second pre-ANH SW bootleg matches this credit.
For the sake of this hypothesis, this 'tight' John Williams credit is the opening day version. This conclusion coming from the idea that foreign releases come after english release: explaining the 16mm change. (don't have a reason why the two pre-ANH bootlegs are different) and So those who've seen this english 16mm or saw the movie in theaters (possibly only in the US) and maybe only through 1978? (date T.B.D.) have seen this version. Everybody else has seen a modified version of Star Wars.
So the point is in some weird subconscious way people are clamoring to see the Original Versions of these films because they have never seen them. Not just the young PT generation, but much of the OT generation who weren't there opening day '77 (through '78 or so, or saw this 16mm english print.)
It's wonderfully fascinating.
But back to you specifically, cus by now you must be bored since this post doesn't contain any of your opinions. KenKraly2007 and George Lucas share a common thought. (this is based on the conjecture that George Lucas believes in preservation) And that the home video releases preserved the Original Theatrical version of Star Wars. (which i'm saying isn't so) So in 2004 when George Lucas said:
"The special edition, that's the one I wanted out there. The other movie, it's on VHS, if anybody wants it... To me, it doesn't really exist anymore."
Yeah this quote doesn't really sink into the OT angle so ain't a graceful way to exit this post. But who cares!
I was trying to transition to the point that KenKraly2007 when he said:
yes I do like the original theatrical of the OT
That's technically inaccurate, just like it is possibly inaccurate to call the VHS release of Star Wars as equal to the original theatrical version. So because of this weird technical detail, both KenKraly2007 and George Lucas were partly misinformed and said something which is not true, even though they both believed it with all their hearts and minds.
You have not seen the Original Theatrical version of Star Wars. and George Lucas is wrong to assume that the VHS version of Star Wars is equal to the Original Theatrical Version. (which he is not claiming... my arguments fell apart somewhere a few paragraphs back. it's late i'm tired)
and confused.
What's up with John Williams' Star Wars Credit?
Most people have never seen the Original Theatrical version of Star Wars. (even the ones who think they have.)
Puggo's Stjärnornas Krig:
So that's two 16mm and two boots with alternating credit versions.
Need to ask Puggo if he's got an idea of release dates of these 16mm as that's a clue for when the change might have occurred. What maybe a year between the US and the Swedish translated 16mm releases?
*edit*
SilverWook checked his Derann Super8 recording and it's got the 'Spaced' version. Here are those pics:
*EDIT*
New Thread for this issue:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Star-Wars-Pre-Re-release-Credit-Change/topic/12960/
kenkraly2007 wrote: I like the original theatrical of the OT and yes I understand most people have never seen the OT especially young ones who only know of star wars from the clone wars tv series and the prequels.
No no no, first i'm saying you haven't seen the original theatrical version of the OT, and secondly it's not just young people it's possibly old people as well.
Please list all the versions of Star Wars you have seen as descriptively accurate as you can. And i'll explain how you and possibly 97% of the people who have seen Star Wars have never seen the original theatrical version.
kenkraly2007 wrote: yes I do like the original theatrical of the OT
Would it surprise you if it turns out you (and most people) have never seen the original theatrical version of the OT?
Boba Fett Early Test Costume (old vid, newism yt)
Random request to those who have any Krieg der Sterne preservations, could you check the credits for John Williams. There's a confusing variation; earlier versions have 'John Williams' and 'London Symphony' with no space between them and sometime later (78-81?) a gap was added. Curious how these Krieg der Sterne's match the english versions. As shown in the early posts of the thread, they modified the logo and crawls in significant ways.
Pics of an english 16mm and 2006 dvd are here if my description is unclear:
Danke
greenpenguino wrote: what is this I don't even...
Arlo Guthrie's 'Motorcycle Song'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g266Uwp6ZnI
Happy Flower's 'Mom I Gave the Cat Some Acid'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQYrjfAQQQ
animals within animals 'jack and databend'
http://www.badtaste4life.com/mp3/bt26/05-animals_within_animals_-_jack_and_databend.mp3
King Missile 'Cheesecake Truck'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKptTuohldI&feature=related
Slick Rick's 'Children's Story' (1988)
TV's Frink wrote: I believe Tyrphanax was talking about none's kenkraly impression.
I believe you have been mistaken... about a great many things. These posts are actually the summoning of the spirit of the recently deceased Darth Cockatiels impression of...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQaTnJ7ZDlg&NR=1 (jump to :55)
Hey! What's all this laying around stuff? Why are you all still laying around here for?
What? Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Germans?
Forget it, he's rolling. 
And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard of something to say]
The tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
Why isn't there a 'Star Wars Fan'?
The blades could be lightsabers and the center could have a picture of Grievous. It could glow in the dark, half fan - half nightlight.
BIZZARO! BIZZARO1 BIZZARO!
^ Will you be here all week?
You've got 'second rendevouz' twice. The 93 one should be 'third'.
Since the 96 Cinefex quote is so on target, do you want to spoil it by having your explanation before people read his words?
There are several 'next rendevouz' maybe instead of "The next rendevouz is 2004" shorten it to:
The bullet point also adds a visual clue when a new one starts. (can add in page html links if you want to get fancy)
^
No not dog:
Puggo wrote: Lucas suppressing the original films that won 7 Academy Awards is not an opinion about which version is "better". Even if the SE improved the films, that is no excuse for making a film that is a cinematic and cultural milestone unavailable. This is not opinion, it is a singular fact and that is what this site is about. I enjoy many of the SE changes too, but that doesn't make altering history acceptable.
For the last time and it's not name the system, if you want to fight about the UOT the changes that damaged the universe or all that bantha go to the appropriate thread. Otherwise the Death Star will suspend you to beyond the Christmas after the discs are released. Do I make myself clear? I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time. Please back on topic this is a thread about the blu-ray box set release not about the UOT vs SE debate. Stay on Topic. This bickering is pointless. We are all star wars fans
to
the
very
end.
Ok who else is tired of my cntl-c|cntl-v?
You Can't Shoot Here (via: Jon Benjamin Has A Van)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR0v_fF3OYM
[and 'Stall Cash' is awesome too]
^ Mr. Chunks has no use for SARs casm detect or something.
Tyrphanax wrote:
Darth Vader said:
Wat?!
ts;dr
Great posts kenkraly2007 for explaning this to me. And 1 more question when the star wars movies eventully comr out on blu-ray in a few years (2011 or 2012 to be sure.) will lucasfilm use the master for the 2004 dvds as a starting point to put new HD Masters of all 6 films on blu-ray?
I like the changes made to the original trilogy for the special editions they tie all 6 films together and they improved the films. Why some fans complain about the SE changes to this day I will never understand. If you don't like the changes to the OT for the SE then don't watch the films. I like all 6 films and I don't listen to those complainers out their about the special editions of the original trilogy because all they do is complain and whine about it to this day.
I am going to buy the complete saga on blu-ray and to me the changes made to the OT for the special editions made the films better why some fans can't see that I will never understand. Their is nothing wrong with those changes ok it made the films better with those changes. I never grew up with OOT when it 1st came out I was born in July 83 the year ROTJ came out so I did'nt see the films in the theater until 97. The special editions to me are the best version of the films. Are you going to get on me just because I like special editions of the OT?
I've heard this story before bottom line is they are GL's film's he is an artiest and he can release them any way he want's to. No fan petitions are not going to make either GL or LFL change their minds on which version of the OT is released the special editions are the ones that are being released on blu-ray and I have no problem with that at all.
Please back on topic this is a thread about the blu-ray box set release not about the UOT vs SE debate. Stay on Topic. This bickering is pointless.
Well said and I understand fans and people have different opinions on star wars and star wars related. That does'nt mean I agree with everyone but I respect their opinions when it comes to star wars.
Hopefully the sound mix for episode 4 A New Hope will be corrected this time for the blu-ray release because on the dvd release'ed of ANH in 2004 it was rushed a little bit.
I agree with all of your posts about the blu-ray box set so don't call me a broken record. So take back what you said.
I remember when I saw it in 1997 the Special Edition of Episode 4 A new hope on the big screen at my local theater in Ohio I was in star wars heaven and I said that this the way tp see star wars on the big screen.
I know I say the same things over and over again of what I want fixed for the OT on blu-ray , the color timing issues , the sound mix for episode 4 A New Hope and so on but these issues are important that where messed up in 2004 for the dvd release and they need to be addressed for the blu-ray release. Soory if I say those things over and over again but these issues are important and need to be addressed.
One thing that was mention by the amazon.com review was that the blu-rays of the ot will have 3 cuts of the special editions 1997 , 2000 and 2003. From what I recall their was only 2 versions of the special editions 1997 and 2003/2004. Where did this 2000 special edition cut come from?
We are all star wars fans to the very end.
In the end we are all fans of star wars.
But people who pick on star wars and anything about it I can't stand it when they do it.
Well said and I understand fans and people have different opinions on star wars and star wars related. That does'nt mean I agree with everyone but I respect their opinions when it comes to star wars.
But people who pick on star wars and anything about it I can't stand it when they do it.
In the end we are all fans of star wars.
We are all star wars fans to the very end.
skyjedi2005 wrote: I still maintain the process is meaningless if no one ever gets to see the so called preserved films in the library of congress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress#Using_the_Library
The library is open to the general public for academic research and tourists. Only those who are issued a Reader Identification Card may enter the reading rooms and access the collection. The Reader Identification Card is available in the Madison building to persons who are at least 16 years of age upon presentation of a government issued picture identification (e.g. driver's license, state ID card or passport).
not from these drawings. these are design drawings. there's no detail inside the walls. all surface applique.
