musicman

I see what you're saying, Spence--I got the sense that that was the case.  More power to ya, then!  Let me know if you have any trouble finding music for it, though.

I like those shots--particularly the one of Vader in his chamber.  The way it's lit, it reminds me of something like Dr. Strangelove or something. 

The changes you have listed intrigue me.  Sounding cool! 

Spence, this is an incredibly intriguing concept.  I am very interested in this edit.

Without having checked out the 8 minute preview, I will say that if you can make a dubbing work, consistency would probably be good. 

A few comments, though, in terms of the idea of being a throwback to the classics.  I like the idea, but being a fan of classic films myself, it seems that some things, as is, might work against that feel.

The string quartet stuff is good music, but it tends to actually give more of a contemporary classical flavor feel to me.  I would strongly recommend seeking out Golden Age film music, or late Romantic period concert music (because this was the style from which film music back then was most closely descended).  I'd be glad to recommend some scores/pieces to consider if you'd like.

Also, I'm surprised that you find it difficult to get good black and white shots out of TPM--if anything, that should be the easiest to get better material that translates to that classic flavor.  In the teaser trailer, particularly the AOTC shots of Anakin and Padme along with Anakin on the speeder reminded me of independent films far more than old school epics.  Some of ROTS looked a bit better, but the shot of Palpatine definitely stood out.

Now, of course, this is your edit, and if the aesthetic you've got is what you want, that's all good, but if you do really want to go for the flavor of a classic epic, these things definitely come across the opposite.   As is, the impression is more of a contemporary film in which the filmmaker chose to shoot in black-and-white. 

Either way, it's a very interesting project, and I wish you good luck and productive editing!

If I had my wish, then in addition to the great stuff we already have, they'd finally put out:

Superman: The Movie restored TV cut in widescreen

Superman II Donner Cut with an actual effects budget (the Phantom Zone...oy) and no lame high-pitched dubs for Superman

Superman II restored TV cut in widescreen

Superman III with fully restored widescreen deleted scenes (don't think I need them reinserted, but it would be nice to have them in a better format than some old TV print--and I believe there was still a scene or two missing from the DVD, like the room service guy at the hotel confusing Clark)

Superman IV restored director's cut

You could literally make a box set of restored extended cuts in addition to the tin (which is great, by the way--don't mean to sound like a whiny snot).  Just my $0.02. 

At any rate, keep up the good work, guys! 

It is true, there were no beams.  It seemed to me like the default heat vision would bounce off, but still be hot enough to do damage, and Superman and the Kryptonians can control the intensity and make it to where it affects glass.  This may seem like a bunch of hot air, but I dunno...that bit never really bothered me, and it still doesn't really.  It seems like a place where there's room for suspension of disbelief.

Something else I was thinking of was minimizing or cutting out the video game display.  I want to say I've heard of at least one edit that attempted/did that.  It seems like the music and sound effects could be most problematic.  I haven't investigated the sound mix thoroughly--it may be possible to glean some relatively clean dialogue and sound effects, and if so, I have the score and could work to edit the track to fit the recut scene.  Any other suggestions?

Those who have been around may have noticed/followed my attempts in making a fan edit with my combining the two parts of the Batman: The Animated Series episode “Two-Face” into one forty-five minute film.  I had been unsuccessful in making a high quality edit, and I believe this was a result of my initial tries with Womble while not following ADM’s instructions, followed by trying to adapt some of those directions to Adobe Premiere Elements.  I still want to complete this edit.  I am seriously considering getting Womble and anything else I need to do these things now, and so my first question is this: have people been successful in completing relatively complex edits with ADM’s method?  The reason I ask is this…

A project I have long wanted to do is an edit of Superman III.  It is a seriously flawed film, but there are some solid elements, specifically the Lana plot and the junkyard confrontation.  I feel that for the most part, simple cutting would succeed in greatly strengthening this film.  It’s a pity that we don’t have all of the deleted scenes in finished form, with anamorphic widescreen, as some would be helpful (I’d especially like to be able to use the extended drinking scene with Brad reminiscing about how kids used to call him the Smallville Flash–IMO, this was the most important part of this scene, fleshing out Brad’s pathetic state a little bit more.  Another one I’d like to be able to use is the gag of the man knocking on the door next to Lana’s room, making Clark’s confused look when the scene starts in the theatrical version make sense).  Nonetheless, I think there’s a decent film underneath the stupidity.

I hesitate to elaborate on all the changes right now, but here’s some of them.

• The film now starts at the Daily Planet, much like ADM’s Superman Redeemed.  When we first meet Gus, he is already working at Webster’s company (I don’t remember where I got this idea, but someone here had it already–good idea!)

• Cut out the misadventures in computing when Gus tries to hack the satellite.  Fighting crosswalk signals?  This is Superman, not Airplane!.

• Cut out Gus falling off the building in skis–I’ve already done a test clip on Premiere Elements, and it works fantastically!  I’d kinda like to cut the shots establishing that the ski resort is on top of the building, but the dialogue and shots make it very troublesome.

• Cut out the phone conversation between Gus and Ross after Gus gives Superman the fake kryptonite.  This removes the idiotic line, “I ask you to kill Superman and you can’t do that one…simple…thing.”  This also makes it so that Gus’s later move to stop them makes a lot more sense.  For the most part this removes the explicit discussion of killing Superman from scenes with Superman; Lorelai does say it can hurt Superman in the ski lodge scene, but it would make sense that Gus doesn’t realize the full ramifications of what they are doing to Superman until he sees the supercomputer in action.

• Cut out Gus’s Super-bragging and rejection of the job.  Did this character grow at all?  Gus’s last shot is him looking to the sky appreciatively and saying, “Take it easy, man.”

These are the real biggies that stand out in my mind.  There will probably be other trims here and there, but I haven’t done a thorough investigation of the film yet.

There are a few effects I’d like to incorporate, and those would be beyond me, so if anyone would eventually be able to lend a hand to this, it’d be awesome.  These effects would be the following:

• New credits in space–it would be great if there was a restored widescreen version of the space credits used for the TV version lying around.

• Fixing the effect somehow of Superman inverting the tornado.  It looks really cheap, like they were just gradually revealing something that was already there, with a flat line at the top.  If it could be done to make this look smoother, perhaps even getting a bit of a swirling effect and making it look more like an actual tornado once Superman gets to it, that would be sweet.

• There is one last thing that is more optional, but would be really cool to pull off.  I always wanted to have the supercomputer be called Brainiac.  If nothing else, it would be great to see a display read “Brainiac online” or something like that.  If the triangular Brainiac logo from TAS could be included that would make it even better.  If we could have the actual dialogue go over it, it would be beyond awesome.  At this point, it would be more a wink at the fans than anything else, but it occurred to me the other day that perhaps it could be implied that the fake kryptonite actually affected Gus while he had it.  My intial thought was to have a subliminal shot of the Brainiac logo inserted when Gus receives the fake kryptonite, and possibly repeat this elsewhere.  It could be cheesy, but it could work.  If nothing else, just the logo on the screen would be cool.

Any thoughts, comments, advice?

Jonesy said:

 Jones1899,

Can't wait to watch this thing. As for whoever said the music cue I suggested is too associated with the ark, it's not. It's just a tension building bridge into the next scene on the island. To me, if it was anything from the well of the souls, or the map room, it'd be too nostalgic and agreed, too linked with the ark to use.

 Yes, it is.  It's not just nostalgic, it's specifically a variation of the Ark Theme.  It's not just generic transition music, it's a transition based on the Ark Theme.  I don't know how I can make this any clearer.

Jonesy said:

Also, if you're thinking of putting music from the originals, the music that plays after Belloq says, "Do as you will" in Raiders would play really well as Indy asks, "What is this thing?" in KOTCS. It'd be a nice transition to him and Mutt walking up the steps.

 

Tonally it would work, but I have to recommend not doing this, because the music playing there is a variation of the Ark theme, which made sense in the warehouse, because it was there, but now the focus is on the skull, and using that music wouldn't make any sense at all.  I would really strongly recommend trying to find other music either from the KOTCS score or some kind of cue that doesn't have as strong an identity to connect it directly to something else.

jones1899 said:

topdawg193 said:

Musicman - I had that exact cut in mind, also.

I agree with you, jones1899, that there is far too much exposition, and feel that we don't need the 'what if's, or the musings about Oxley at this point; transitioning from 'what is this thing?' to Indy and Mutt going up the steps would be seamless.

Remember, with the whole 'return' business, in regards to the word 'return' being written all over Ox's cell and the realisation that Oxley left clues in the note to find the skull, I think it's safe to assume that the audience would be able to grasp that Oxley was the one who both found and then later returned the skull (we are even reminded of this in the following scene with Indy and Spalko in the tent; 'now I know why Oxley put the skull back - he knew you were looking for it').

It's good to hear that you're tackling this head on, jones1899 - on the topic of needless-exposition, what are your thoughts on other areas of the movie which you think ought to be trimmed down, dialogue wise? I think this removing-of-pointless-explanations is possibly the best way to tighten up the film, and give it some velocity in terms of pacing.

 

Beyond that, I cut Ox's Henry Jones Jr! line just before the jungle chase.  In fact, I cut a lot of Ox. Now it really does seem like he's just a tool (not like that) and that the skull messed him up pretty bad. He's not the "funny' messed up like they were going for. Now when he returns to normal it works much better since we haven't heard him talk much. I HATED Ox in the original. 

Hm.  He didn't strike me as funny that often--and I didn't feel like they were trying to make him funny.  The dancing at the camp for instance, I didn't get a vibe of "Wow, what a crappy attempt at humor."  I got a vibe of, "Whoa, what's wrong with him?"

I can see how a silent messed up could be really effective too, though, and it's your edit, so do what you will.

You know, I don't recall if it was between my first viewing and second, or between my last viewing in theater and first at home, but at some point I actually had it in my head somehow that the Orellana's Cradle scene actually did end with "What is this thing?"  It seems feasible.  The only real challenge I can see is making the musical transition smooth.  I don't recall precisely what the music is doing.  If you can somehow get the music to go from wherever it is to the resolving chord that plays over them walking up the steps, then you should be in business. 

I personally don't mind the remainder of the scene (I'm really curious as to what the scene was like with the ground collapsing beneath them), but I think this cut could be feasible, and fairly smooth.

Perhaps not, but dead-on cinematography, good acting, and a wonderful mood/atmosphere certainly qualify for me.

Oh, and I'm assuming you hate Young Sherlock Holmes also, correct?

jones1899 said:

Yeah, I totally disagree with the defense of Ox. In a movie filled with goofiness it's just uneeded AND takes away a lot of puzzle solving from Indy since Ox's has been there already. Also, that makes it 5!! people in this happy group adventure which lessens the sense of danger (if 5 people, most of them middle aged) make it through a trap or waterfall unscathed, then it must not be too dangerous. I didn't feel for Ox, since I didn't know how he was before he went insane and it sure wasn't funny. I've begun working on an edit and I'm doing everything I can to cut the Ox sillyness.

Just my opinion. But I do agree about the alien stuff. Not sure how I'm gonna fix that though.

Well, I mean, if that's what you think, I can't change your mind, but I just really don't understand the problem with showing how his mind has been messed up since he looked into the skull for so long.  Oh, well. 

Jeyl said:

Why I hate Indiana Jones.

Chapter 1

Shia La Bug Fudge as Indiana Jones' son. No thank you. The Last Crusade was enough of a family film even for an Indiana Jones movie, I don't need another one. And why a son? Can we have a hero movie where a big name hero has a daughter for once?

Umm...Live Free or Die Hard?  Hello?

It was a natural place for them to go; I dont' have any inherent problem with him having a son, and he actually ended up being a good character, IMO.

Chapter 2

Same old story all over again. Evil foreign army wants the ultimate power from an ancient artifact, they get it thanks to Indy, they unleash the power, get overwhelmed by it and get disintegrated and their remains fly up in the air. How original.

This is the Indy formula, like it or not.  The details of Spalko's death were similar to Raiders, probably even more similar than I would've liked, but basically, this is how an Indy movie goes.

Chapter 3

Monkeys hate communists. Why? Oh, and thank you for showing that clip where we see the Monkey that Cate Blanchett threw off a cliff and than having it grab onto a branch. I would have hated the movie if the villain did something that evil like killing a monkey.

Yeah, I'll bet you just about anything that follwing the monkey was Lucas's idea.  Don't have any inherent problems with the monkeys causing a ruckus, but the execution wasn't that great.

Chapter 4

The Aliens are a bunch of a**holes. I don't mind aliens. Honest. But the fact that when they leave they destroy any remnants that they ever existed is pretty selfish since it involved wiping out an entire society!

Ummm...okay....I'm not following where you're getting this, what the problem is, or how it ruins the movie.

Chapter 5

"Somewhere, you grandpa's laughing." Ya, and grandma is wondering if she ever had any impact on your life Indy. Thanks for leaving her out of the picture.

"Treat her right, kid.  You only get one, and you don't know for how long." 

The dialogue here was directly related to the issues that Indy and his dad had, and now he and his son are having.  However, I do think this should've been used as a place for real depth in the relationship.  The film needed its zeppelin conversation or "I thought I'd lost you, boy!" or "Indiana...let it go" scene, and " I don't know, why didn't you...Dad?"  deserved a moment for direct reconciliation. 

Chapter 6

Mutt being developed to be the next Indy. Totally not cashing in on Shia's surge in popularity. No way.

Dude, did you not see the ending?  That was the whole point of showing Indy snatch the hat away from him--they're saying that they're NOT gonna do that.

Chapter 7

Lucas and Spielberg thinking they're the only ones who should still make/write Indy movies. I'd love to see it if that wasn't the case.

 Well, it's their baby, and I think Spielberg SHOULD direct.  Lucas wasn't the only one who wrote.  I think there was too much of Lucas trying to shoehorn his newer tech into the film. 

None of these things that I've read have addressed all the good things in the film.  I saw the film three times in the theater, and two of these three  I knew exactly what I didn't like about it...and I still couldn't help but enjoy myself the whole time.  Some stuff they flat-out nail: the sequence in the graveyard/crypt is just terrific, IMO.  Yeah, there are problems, some of them fairly big, but there's a lot to like, and see the film just get trashed like a Batman and Robin or Attack of the Clones type failure just strikes me as stuff getting blown way out of proportion.

topdawg193 said:

Laser, I was just watching your edit of the jungle chase and I have one other, minor suggestion. Is it at all possible to trim the duration between Mutt coming up to the front of the truck and then asking 'so, what's he gonna do next?' - there seems to be a strange lull in the momentum here, what with his pause/strange look before he asks that question. If his pause was trimmed, so that he quickly asks 'so, what's he gonna do next' almost immediately after he comes up to the front of the truck, it may seem less clumsy and more natural/convey a sense of excitement from Mutt, and get the action started sooner.

I initially thought that this pause signalled a dawning appreciation of Indy on Mutt's part, but he immediately responds 'don't call me son!' when Indy emerges a second later with the rocket launcher, and continues to remain sarcastic and aloof to Indy ('what are you looking at daddio?') throughout the majority of the rest of the chase (and we can really only identify Mutt's full acceptance of Indy as his father at the end of the film, anyway). So, we would really lose nothing by removing his pause, and may gain slightly better pacing in doing so.

 I think it was a combination of the revelation of Indy as his father and seeing Marion in action.  He was kind of processing things.  He wanted to say something, but he couldn't quite figure out what.  It's natural, and I don't think it needs to be trimmed at all. 

And I loved the "What are you looking at, Daddy-o?"  moment--I don't think it's just him being distant, but he's actually kind of embarassed at his defeat by Spalko. 

jones1899 said:

I think the list we have is very thorough. I think it addresses several problems wth the film. Some of these are quite small and some are not, but every step of the way we've discussed the feasability of these edits with those doing the edits. Things like Ox dancing for instance is, for many of us, another goofy, kiddy scene in a film that has far too many goofy and kiddy scenes. 

The main problem with the alien stuff is not that there are aliens (or whatever interdemensional beings they're refered to as) but that there's no sense of peril or danger or character moments to ground the film in any manner to handle such a thing. Scenes that were over the top were made more so by the fact that there was never any sense of danger due to an over reliance on CGI and jsut plain bad filmmaking. Is is terrible to have a character in an adventure film swinging on vines? No. In fact its sort of expected. But seeing the way said scene ws executed makes it stand out as weightless and goofy. Are aliens THAT far out of left field for the Indy franchise? Nope. But the way they were presented here is just plain terrible.

 

How is a display of the fact that Ox has gone batty "goofy or kiddy"?  If that was the way he normally acted, then maybe I could see a problem.  But this just strikes me as an ignorant, knee-jerk reaction bred out of living with three SW films littered poop jokes and silly robots. 

I actually agree with the second paragraph quoted.  I think these things could've been executed much better--I'd love to see an edit where a real alien puppet/costume was somehow composited in instead of the CG alien.  These are real issues.  But there are a lot of just out-there stuff that totally misses the point of what the problems were. 

I do disagree that it's a near-impossible task to make this a good film--I find that to a large degree, it already is, but there are some glaring flaws that, if you're not able to put it in perspective with the big picture of what they actually got right, can totally overshadow your view of the film. 

TMBTM said:

I do edits every now and then to,and I read some of these posts on possible changes and alterings and cuts,and I just cannot believe the arrogance,and Holier than though attitudes I see

I understand your point, but to me there are several kind of fanediting, those done to make the film better (from the point of view of the editor of course), and those made to radicaly transform the movie in "something else", not necesarry better. I like both.

It all depends on what is the goal of the faneditor. If you want to make OX less crazy in your edit, well, why not give it a try? Perhaps it 'll work. I don't see that as a disrespect on Spielberg's work. Unless the faneditor is an arrogant asshole that spit on the original movie all the time in his comments. But then it's an attitude problem, not an editing problem. (I really don't point at anyone, I check the Indy4 thread from time to time, and I usualy like what I read).

 

Good point. But what I'm seeing stuff is things like "If we can't get rid of the dumb*** (Ox), at least cut down his dancing" or whatever. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist that I see. I guess if you want to make it different, that's fine, but it seems like people are even calling things flaws when they actually make perfect sense.

And, no, MCB, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm 100% serious. I got on this board recently after not having been on in a while, checked out the KOTCS thread, and then starting thinking, "Wait, are you serious? WHY?"

No man, I think I see what you're getting at.  I mean I love fan edits as much as the next guy, but I've seen some pretty anal comments/suggestions/etc.  I mean, c'mon, cutting out some of Ox's crazy behavior when the man is...crazy?  Huh?  Tracking in musical set pieces from the first three films?  C'mon.   It gets crazy.  Absolutely make the Mutt swinging better.  Explore possibilities for Doom Town (even though I didn't have the major spleen busting reaction that some have).  Make things make more sense.  But it gets to a point where you go beyond just making the film better and it gets excessive or so off in its own way that it makes it pointless.

My, it's been some time since I've been around here.

First off, I must express my deepest apologies.  When I got my DVD-5 copy of Revisited, I offered to PIF it, and I failed miserably in that regard.  Getting it done wasn't as convenient as I had thought it would be, I was wrapping up high school and working on college stuff, and things just got ridiculous.  I'm now ending my fourth week of college, and my editing activities are pretty much non-existent for the moment.  So, I'm guessing that by now anyone who asked me for a copy has gotten theirs, but I am sorry for not following up on my offer, and in the future I will do my best to not make promises I can't keep.

On another note, congrats to adywan for getting this thing done!  When I get the chance I'll have to get a hold of this (and do my part around here), but bigtime congratulations--and I'm liking what I've seen of ESB!