muddyknees2000

brash_stryker said:

 

Now whilst I understand where you're coming from and that a first time viewer would think that Anakin (Hayden) in the PT was Vader due to the fact he was: 

Seduced by the dark side of the force

The problem with this idea is that Vader was SUPPOSED to have been seduced by the dark side of the force......but they depict no such thing in ROTS. As it stands now, he was tricked into turning by Palpatine who is hinted at having had his fingers in the pie since, and including, Anakin's birth.

So not only does the PT not work the way it stands now, but nor would the idea of having Anakin as the perceived "good guy" who we later learn was actually the one who turned. "Seduced by the dark side" should mean that the character of Anakin lusts for power, and enjoys using it for evil/his own gain/less than benevolent purposes. Additionally, giving the viewer reason to perceive him as the good guy (even if it IS a trick) takes away from his eventual turn back to good. The whole point of Darth Vader (or more accurately, the person who wanted power so much that he eventually became Vader) is that he was a very bad dude, who became the baddest dude in the galaxy.....making it all the more surprising when it turns out that he actually gives a shit about his son and turns (giving his life in the process) to save him.

For the PT to respect the material that came before it and to also retain the surprise of Anakin being Vader you need to find a way of making him seem to desire power of his own accord (not being tricked into wanting it to save someone...therefore still allowing him to be a good guy, who sacrifices himself to save someone else...long before he does exactly that same thing for Luke), and also leave his death/survival and the fact that he is the one who becomes Vader rather ambiguous. Quite a challenge to accomplish these 2 things in the same plot.....but if you figure out how to do that you save a big part of the saga that GL ruined.

TV's Frink said:

I'm rooting for Smarch.

The lousy weather might cause delays...

As far as the subtitles are concerned...

Personally I had always heard "IS no Jedi"...pronounced "eez"...like someone of another language trying to say "Is not a Jedi"....but using the wrong words....OR perhaps an alien language sounding similar to English in some ways.

While I agree with parts of what you're saying here...I disagree that it wasn't terrifying.....the thought of being digested over that long a period of time (which humorously seems to ignore the simple fact of actual human lifespan), after being thrown into a hole with teeth is a very discomforting thought. I don't know exactly how exciting this is meant to be though......like hangings and beheadings.....these were public events that were over in a flash with no long drawn out show.....this isn't torture, they're not trying to get a confession...its death....just a longer death, and it happens in this thing's belly.

Its not necessarily the similarity between the 2 creatures....its just too much monster for one film, let alone to all be jammed into the first 3rd of it.....

The Rancor is a monster Luke must battle, part of the character's voyage or story arc....the Sarlaac is a mysterious hole in the ground, representing a fate worse than death....it is symbolic more that an overt threat that must be fought against physically........we shouldn't see it overmuch, apart from its mouth....its the Boba Fett Effect....explain too much of it and it loses its cool.

Bingowings said:

I think it's insane that old continuity issues, for example, are not addressed in even the latest official SE but new ones have been introduced (Artoo's appearing/vanishing natural alcove etc).

Try explaining this to someone accusing you of hypocrisy for preferring Ady's changes to Lucas'. A bad change, consistently applied, is better than even the greatest addition/alteration that is only applied to one shot thus creating all new continuity errors.

1138 Shades of TIE Fighter Grey

Akwat Kbrana said:

Will the winner get to pick the color of the AT-AT lasers? ;)

Yes, we have a whole list of different shades of red already prepared for the lucky winner to choose from.

Bingowings said:

If only he could replace Grievous.

Grievous never should have replaced Christopher Lee to begin with.

We definitely won't.....a contest could definitely be run only on OT.com in some not too distant future.....

FB it is then folks....sorry

EDIT: Though its not much work to create a real basic FB account in order to post contest entries if you don't already have one.

The contest was started as FB only as I have nowhere near enough time to be checking multiple threads on OT.com AND the FB page and collating all names and submissions in one place for later judgement and awarding of prizes. As it is just managing the FB page and  getting everyone's submissions in one place, and responding to comments has taken up large portions of my day. Now, if doubleofive wants to volunteer his time to collate results on THIS site I am totally open to that, but since this was my idea I didn't want to burden anyone else with having to sift through submissions during almost the entire month of Dec.

mangojango said:

Loving the concept of reordering the film so that it is Darth Vader post-suit that attacks the temple and using the Mcquarrie prototype helmet, but looking down that page at the photos it, the most striking one is the image of the mask without the helmet.

http://www.starwarshelmets.com/2010/SWH_RMQ_Vad10.jpg

I quite like that look actually......somewhat reminiscent of the clone troopers...which would almost make sense.....and then of course Vader changes it over time. 

SilverWook said:

If only you could find someone who owns one of the McQuarrie concept helmets...

http://www.starwarshelmets.com/EFX-mcquarrie-darth-vader-helmet.htm

This is what should have been on screen in ROTS. Why should Vader's suit not have evolved or changed at all in twenty years?

My Revisited FB page response to this same suggestion:

As much as I like the McQuarrie piece I think that it might actually look TOO cool for us to then move on from there to the OT look we're all accustomed to. I think it would be a lot like many of the other mistakes GL made when making the PT....making things too cool, too updated, too perfect for them to be followed up with the out-dated universe we see in the OT.

I hate that damn shot...

my mistake....I thought there was at least one shot where you replaced it completely

So far I think any cloud city replacement he has put in has been done using CG....he'd have liked to build a rather large model but it was cost prohibitive to do so. I'd have to check my workprint to see if it rotates at all.

from what I heard NONE of them were in HD

I have not....though as far as I know the lightsaber construction scene is of too low quality resolution-wise to be included in Revisited.

I was always so entertained by The Empire Strikes Back that I accepted alot of this kind of stuff without needing to rationalize it ;)

SpilkaBilka said:

Given ROTJ, should we really have expected anything good from episodes I-III?

I think alot of us felt that Lucas had slipped a little....that he was just lazy with the last installment of the trilogy....it happens in many film franchises...even when they manage to hold on to the magical formula for a second film the third one usually deviates and ends up being crap (Robocop comes to mind). Budget also often comes into play in this type of situation....sometimes what made a film great is that on a lesser budget it becomes necessary to make a character film instead of a special effects film.....when you get to number 2 or 3, the success of the first one makes it so that more money is being thrown around and this changes the feel of things greatly.

What we had no way of knowing was that ROTJ was what a SW film would look like if George was totally hands on, controlling all aspects.....he wasn't lazy, quite the contrary, he probably worked himself to exhaustion...controlling everything and thus making a less interesting film (in that it had fewer influences and individual visions behind it). Hindsight is 20/20....but we had no way of knowing without first having seen TPM.....it was then that it started to dawn on people that George had lost what made him great all those years ago (and only later that we started to get snippets of info that made it seem like the first 2 films were only successful because of some of the other people that were around to temper George's raw visions into workable scripts, scenes, shots, etc.

Ok, after some thought, I think this should be simple enough. There are only 2 basic objectives one would need to achieve in order to bring some sense to this part of the film:

1. Everyone that comes in needs to have a role in THE plan (multiple plans just makes things too confusing with all that is going on....we're trying to simplify this part of the film, not make it more complicated). BUT if we manage to make it look like everyone is working together then many of them can almost stay the way they are now and the changes we make elsewhere will make it all seem like it flows as a more cohesive plan (this reduces the amount of work that needs to be done). This means that everyone has to have a reason for being there....Lando can possibly remain unexplained as he would have been the advance scout...getting the lay of the land, and then signaling Leia...this can all be assumed, so his role in the film need not change necessarily (though I would remove his knowing look to Leia when Luke gets dropped into the pit as it makes it seem like he's letting her know that he's there, like she previously didn't know).

Chewie needs to be put into a jail cell for a reason...and this is another one that possibly need not be changed. He tells Han about Luke in the film as it stands now....so if we make it look like they're all working together then the meaning changes slightly and it comes off more as Chewie telling Han "Don't do anything stupid, we've got this one.". 

Leia needs to be unfreezing Han not to escape necessarily (because Chewie is still in a cell and Lando deep undercover)....but just to have him unfrozen so that when Luke shows up everyone is mobile and ready to go. Leia then gets chained to Jabba as a slave but this is just incidental and means they must improvise a bit....I would also add a shot of her signaling Luke that she's going in (this sets in motion the end game part of the plan....and is accomplished easiest when she is still in costume....before we see her sneaking over to unfreeze Han).

And 2. R2 needs to be shown trying to get up to the main throne room...(perhaps after Luke sends him a signal of sorts) and failing.....that makes it seem like the plan was for Luke to smuggle in his lightsaber in case he was searched for weapons but for him to grab it back as soon as it was clear that Jabba wouldn't be reasonable. When R2 fails to get up to the throne room that sets in motion the need for the entire sail barge fight....as at that point they would be improvising...but sort of sticking to the original plan....just in a different place and time.

I can get everybody there together, working on the same plan (though my only idea so far is nowhere near as good as I think we could get)...but the droids is where I get hung up as well. The footage we have to work with is extremely limited if we're hoping to change everyone's purpose. One would almost need costumes and droids to reshoot some basic material just to make it seem like everyone is in on the same scheme....

ex: Lando being in a head to toe costume makes it easy to fake new footage and have it fit seamlessly with whats already there. You could build a miniature hallway set, and film a double on greenscreen, from behind, walking away from the camera, down the hallway.......couple that with some of his trademarked suspicious glances and some new shots of hands doing "something"....maybe he's sending a signal to Luke, maybe he's rigging something specific for the escape attempt....hell, if you cobble together some dialogue from ESB you could maybe even have him passing by Han's cell and mumbling an encouraging message to him that Luke is coming soon to rescue them all.

If you wanted to fake something with the droids that would be even easier...or Leia in her bounty hunter costume......all of it is primed for shooting new material as they're almost ALL unrecognizable...only Lando has a bit of a facial restriction for what one could possibly shoot....but even that is minimal.

Thats exactly what I'm saying....the writing is so bad in ROTJ that I don't think your suggestion covers it.....I think it needs to be dealt with on a more direct level....the actual events IN Jabba's palace.....not events before it.

These ARE B movies...and they're cheesy and the acting is ham fisted at times, but ROTJ goes well beyond that...in that it flat out doesn't make any sense.

The sequence you describe from ANH....on a character level they definitely COULD have looked back at it and said "wow, we kinda screwed that up"...but from a writing standpoint it makes sense.....characters rushing in based on emotional reactions and whatnot. 

The ESB situation again makes sense from a writing standpoint....showing the cockiness of a character who was not ready to face such challenges (which should have also led into the begining of ROTJ....but they failed there as well) who then needs to be rescued by the very people he was supposed to save.

ROTJ makes no bloody sense at all....because people keep coming in, giving away more of their friends as hostages or prisoners....in an attempt to get one hostage back......from a writing standpoint it makes no sense because the characters should be smarter than that, more logical than that. 

Now, if Lando and Chewie had gone in, guns blazing, got caught....then Leia goes in, with another plan, hoping to rescue all 3, and gets caught herself......then Luke comes in to save them all(minus the hiding of his lightsaber...like he knew he was going to fail)......THAT makes sense. The way it is now is just so badly written that there is no way to reconcile any one characters actions with any one else's.

Lando infiltrates...but then forgets why he's there.

Luke gives away the droids, to accomplish nothing (message delivered, thats all)

Leia gives up Chewie to infiltrate and get Han back (how does that make sense?)

Luke uses almost none of his Jedi abilities to help himself...and is only able to master the situation when he gets his lightsaber back.

ALL of these circumstances go against the way the characters have been written. Lando was cocky, and would have done something (especially since he is motivated to make himself look better after basically handing Han over to vader in the first place), Luke (having come into his jedi abilities) would have had a plan for giving up the droids and his lightsaber (he clearly has NO plan and just fumbles along until "oh hey, lightsaber...now lets kill everything!"), Leia (being loyal to her friends) would not have given up one friend for another, or if her and Chewie had a plan then at the very least Chewie should have accomplished something on the inside....he does not......

All of these problems....all of them need to be fixed at their source, which is in the Jabba's palace scene. 

Additionally....if R2 showed up with Luke in his X-Wing, and Leia showed up with 3P0 in a Y-Wing (proof of this in the deleted sandstorm scene) then it stands to reason that they all met up, as Luke was shown building his lightsaber while with the 2 droids. So why oh why...with all his impressive ability to see into the future using the force did Luke wait for literally everybody to get captured, and everything to be as bad off as it could possibly get before venturing out himself to go to Jabba's palace? (This argument relies more on the intention of the written script than in the final editing of the film.....some of the scenes didn't make it for various reasons, but they WERE written and were intended to be a part of the story...and as far as I can tell they just make things more convoluted.)

Bingowings said:

I suggested it was convoluted because it's not Luke's original plan.

It is convoluted because everyone seems to be acting on their own, no-one working together (even though at the end of ESB they seem to have a basic game plan), and everytime you turn around they're giving Jabba ANOTHER hostage....while trying to free the original hostage (Han). 

Lando infiltrates first....but what does he do? Nothing....he waits for Luke's last ditch desperation plan before unmasking himself...so why was he even there in the first place?

Luke sends the droids (hostages +2), asking for an audience....Jabba refuses, but no-one informs Luke. (one might say that Jabba's silence IS his answer...I guess)

Leia shows up, sells Chewie (hostages +1) (who by the way does NOTHING) (infiltrate, do nothing...I don't get it), infiltrates, attempts to free Han (something Lando could have tried), fails, and gets captured (hostages +1).

Luke finally shows up, sans lightsaber, tries to negotiate, fails, tries to not be a total noob who fails at everything, fails, gets captured (hostages +1).

Jabba drags everyone out to a hole in the ground, threatens to throw Luke, Han and Chewie in....Luke reclaims his lightsaber which he smuggled into the palace via R2......goes psycho, kills everyone, then blows up the sail barge just to make sure.

If this was the plan.....if in all honesty Luke's plan was: "Wait and see if everyone else sucks so hard that I have to go in and save the day".....why didn't he just go in with his lightsaber in the first place...try diplomacy, and when that failed...go psycho and kill everybody (NOT above a giant hole in the sand that eats people and has a really really slow metabolism)

The whole thing is an excuse for exactly 2 things.....Leia's reveal, and the action sequence that follows.

The whole thing needs to be tightened up, and no amount of changing the order of who goes in first, or having Luke go to Ben's hurt on tattooine, or changing the order of the dagobah scenes in the film is going to fix these issues. No-one's actions make any sense.....why do they give Jabba so many NEW hostages while trying to free Han? What were they going to do if they succeeded?...run away with Han, regroup and then come up with a new plan to go free Chewie? "Ok, step 1...Han, you go and give yourself up as a prisoner....that way we have a man on the inside....but don't do anything..."

What I had suggested is that instead of Leia showing up and selling Chewie, make it seem like that was done around the same time as Lando getting a job as a guard...and that Jabba has had Chewie fighting for him as a gladiator....so leia's entrace with Chewie on the chain is just her returning (as the bounty hunter) from a fight.....Jabba asks for his winnings, she tries to stiff him (attempting to keep in character)...the thermal detonator conversation takes place.....and then all goes back to normal.........it just makes it seem like they've all infiltrated (and have been there for a while, getting the lay of the land before springing their plan) to help Luke when he finally shows up.....makes it seem like they have a plan.....instead of just showing up one by one, and giving themselves up as hostages.