msycamore

Sorry for being a little off topic, but just for the heck of it, a little color madness...

Moth3r's '77 bootleg telecine - unknown source -> 3/4" U-matic tape -> VHS copy -> DVD recorder copy -> Moth3r's Xvid, although it has gone through that many stages it is an invaluable source for reference, believe it or not, if you can look past the wonky quality, you actually get an general idea of how things are supposed to look, more or less. Don't know if you can see that much in this screen-cap though.

if you think I'm crazy, Senator theater Technicolor Print top, bootleg telecine below.

1982 Laserdisc I think this was the first home video transfer, the source is different than what the later transfers was made from, quite nice vivid colors even though it was yellow/green tinted throughout.

'86 JSC LD this transfer had also a green/yellow tint to it, but even with its dull colors in this shot you get the general idea that the saber should not look like it does in the GOUT establishing shot.

GOUT clipped white levels along with other nasties, just look at the floor Luke standing on! I have even heard something so silly, that there was an EU explanation built around this one or the SE- lightsaber, Luke apparently had some sort of training mode swithed on, that's why his lightsaber looked so different here. Yeah, right...  

1997 SE unfortunately this video transfer had a pink hue in some scenes and blue in others, in some scenes the beautiful original colortiming/photography shines through though.

2004 DVD damn, I'm looking forward to these colors on blu-ray, the lightsaber was always meant to be green. ;)

I don't think anyone of these transfers makes the original lighsaber-effect any justice, as it is IMO along with other sort of prototype Star Wars effects completely dependent on a well done video telecine to work. I just find it interesting with its many variations. Did I cover all different video masters or are there more?

GOUT

2004 DVD I also noticed another one of those thousand color glitches in these DVD's, in the next shot when the blast hit Luke, the color is back. :) (the '97 SE doesn't have this color glitch)

This one is pretty definitive: http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=541751

Here's another: http://www.maverick-media.co.uk/movies/thx_1138_1971/changes_001.html

Great article as usual, zombie.

The main problem is that even how bad the situation look to us hardcore fans of the original films, to the general public it is just available in Laserdisc quality, (not even that, for those in the know how) or in some cases, DVD quality... "no big deal, no suppression going on here." Had they not released the GOUT, our words would have more weight. 

Cameron's The Abyss for example, was never released on DVD in anamorphic, I know it's a bad comparison, because that DVD included both versions in the same quality, and a new HD version is on the way I think.

But bad and old video transfers is nothing that was a huge issue to the regular people in the standard definition era, but soon it will be a extremely unique situation if you take the status and popularity of these films into account, these films are among the biggest, most popular and most iconic films in history afterall, and when the general public with their new HD TV's want to experience the original films again (I hope they still want, even though the brand has been crapped upon in over a decade) they will recognise that their cheap pornos are in better video quality than the GOUT, and then our voices will be relevant again, just me trying to be realistic and optimistic.

Zombie, even though the main purpose of your site is the Star Wars trilogy, could perhaps a little article about his alterations and suppression made to THX 1138 and American Graffiti also fit on your site? it would be great.

Bingowings said:

Fan-editors don't try to supplant or suppress the officially available editions

 Even if they tried, they simply can't, except Lucas. ;)

Bingowings said:

(in fact they actively encourage people to have them).

Mostly because they don't want to get into legal trouble.

Ok, for the '97 SE, the remote along with its lasers was recomposited in every single shot, I also noticed that these laser-impact-effects, (which I believe are separate elements from the actual saber composites) were recomped. Just look how close they are in appearance to the original comp, I strongly suspect this is exactly what's going on with the actual lightsabers as well, also in '97 they didn't recomp these elements just for the sake of fixing the minor glitches in the composites, it was mostly done to get rid of the extra layer of grain and dirt. One problem with this IMO is that these primitive effects by today standards benefited from that extra layer of grain and softness it created, it was a part of these effects, if you remove those layers of grain, these old effects looks even more primitive, then you may as well produce an entire new digital effect in its place instead of using the same old composite elements with its minor glitches. That is also why it's hard to see what has been recomped or not, if you're not comparing them side-by-side like some obsessed nerd. ;)

These impact-elements only appear in one single frame, I included the JSC LD for easier comparison as the GOUT- transfer have the problem with DVNR-smear and clipped white levels.

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

JSC LD

GOUT

2004 DVD

As you can see they are damn close in their appearance, some of them almost identical. Btw these digital recomposites were all made in '97, doubleofive. To be continued...

zombie84 said:

What the fuck happened to this guy? He sounds like was pretty cool.

Fantastic that you got hold of this, this could make my signature quite longer. ;) But I must repeat your words, WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO THIS GUY?! It's tragic and scary at the same time how a person can make such a turn around... only 7 years later...

zombie84 said: 

I'm not saying the saber was green, it was always blue, but in that first establishing shot it has a bit of a green cast to it. Go take a look at the GOUT. It was never a strong blue in that first establisher, and at least on the GOUT I can see some mild green hues coming out.

Sorry if I came across sounding like a smart-ass, zombie. I must've misread your post. Yeah, you're right, it's almost completely washed out in that establishing shot, (I haven't noticed any green hues though, I'll have to take a look) that's also why I don't think the GOUT saber in that shot is any good representation of it's true color as other earlier transfers have a quite colorful saber there, more like how it look in the close-ups in the GOUT. IMO that first wide-shot symbolize everything that's wrong with that transfer, all GOUT flaws in one single shot. ;)

zombie84 said: 

So, on the 2004 version when they yanked up the saturation, played around with other colour levels, and shifted the cast greener still, as the entire shot has a more pronounced green shift, that green saber cast really came out and totally overrode any blue element that was originally weakly there.

That could be the case, but I have a hard time swallowing it, especially when the 2004 version have so many illogical color screw-ups throughout combined with the knowledge of a recomped saber.

zombie84 said:

However, and this ties in with what I had mentioned earlier, it's hard to say what of the original saber element is even valid in the SE anyway--the saber is a re-comp. The original one was a nubby saber that didn't quite extend to the top of the frame, and they redid the blade (probably for 1997?). So this may also further complicate how the colour deviated so much. I don't know if this shot was ever catalogued as a change/recomp, but it is.

Yes, at least both wide shots were recomposited for the '97 SE, as those two scenes where the most affected by the built in dirt due to having so many elements in it. Lightsaber, remote, remote-laser and chess pieces within the same shot. The change was officially catalogued but it's a little vague in its descriptions, you can see when they work on it in the SE documentaries but I'm not sure if all composites were actually redone. I can take a closer look at the whole sequence from various transfers and post a few comparisons so that we can see what really was recomped or not.

Anyway, how trivial these minor changes may be and how scary obsessive and geeky this thread must look for outsiders, ;) I think we're doing a very nice comprehensive list here, quite important IMO as it will be a great information source both for future fan restorations and for making awareness how much that really has been changed in these films.

I didn't describe this little alteration so good last time. The matte appears three times not two. ;) But the first one is a little different, it have a much more visible seam between matte and live-footage. This is one of those things you would never notice if you didn't compare them side by side, I just thought it was interesting enough to point it out.

Gout first matte-shot, looks misaligned with a wide seam visible

Gout - second matte-shot, much better (the green/yellow wall lights in these shots are much more clearly defined in earlier transfers.)

Gout - third matte-shot, looks identical to the second one

'04 DVD digitally improved to remove the rough edges and seams to blend it better, notice the removed green/yellow color from the wall lights, could also be a transfer issue as the door panel to the left also lacks the colors.

'97 SE Just so you can see the tweak a little better

hairy_hen said:

Thanks for pointing out the alteration to the first lightsaber scene, msycamore.  I too noticed that quite a while ago, and it bothered me because there was something not right about it.  Obviously the old transfers are of rubbishy quality, but you can still see the difference even there; the Technicolor print, of course, is by far the best representation.  The blade looks so well made and natural in that version, while the SE is flat and sharp and strange and stupid in comparison.

Thanks for noticing what I pointed out. ;) I thought I was alone there for a while. :)

zombie84 said:

Also, the Falcon saber--in that one wide shot--was always green-cast. The sabers were never consistent, and in ANH Vader's alternated between red, pink and orange. The problem is that this was very, very mild in the original version, so you never noticed it, while in the SE they jacked the colouring on the sabers waaaay up, and then did all sorts of other colour manipulation which just exaggerated this further. As a result, it's not just a mild shift in the colour cast, like in the original, it's outright full-on re-colouring.

Lukes' lightsaber was always blue in the original film, the same goes for Obi-Wans', it could go from a more saturated blue to a more light washed out blue depending on different shots and lightning but it was never green-cast as far as I can see. Where do you get this from? You can clearly see that it is blue in the bootleg telecine for example, even with its wonky quality, also in many older transfers and documentaries where the contrast levels were much better than later video releases. 

How the recomposited saber in the Falcons two wide shots turned green in one of the shots in 2004 is no miracle, as we all know the same kind of color-screwups are all over the place. One example is when Vader approaches Obi-Wan, the green lights on his belt goes from the correct green to blue and back to green again, another is Ben's purple saber and so on. I just find it hard to believe that the 2004 DVD have magically revealed those inconsistencies in colors you describe was always there. Especially when we know this lightsaber shot was recomped in '97. But I may be wrong about this, of course.

The '04 master is so amazingly F***ED up, that in the end it's even hard to study what really is a stupid deliberate alteration or what is just a regular amatuer behind the wheel.

Yeah, it's really sad and very sloppy on an otherwise excellent book, especially when they had time to go over these things when the book was postponed several times. You would think someone should have gone through this more carefully when the same thing happened in the first book, but they're probably not even aware of it. And most regular folks will not even notice the differences or even care, but in a way that's why revisionism is possible in the first place.

It's nothing major, far from it but when you don't have any access to experience the original films properly, it's hard to not be bothered by it when you even can't escape the 1997/2004 alterations in these books that are supposed to be the definitive true documents of the making of the original films. It's not very likely, but I do hope they fix these minor flaws in any future reprints.

Zombie, I just wanted to point out one minor thing in your "Can't even get the SE right" article. The screen-caps you have in example 2) Erased Starfields have a recomped starfield in the SE shot, I pointed this out in doubleofive's thread on page 1 http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Complete-Comparison-of-Special-Edition-Visual-Changes/topic/11927/ You can see that the starfield doesn't match up with the original shot if you look close enough, it's more noticeable in the '97SE. So I would recommend using another starfield shot for that particular demonstration.

Ah, ok. You do have access to the original cut, then you have everything you'll need, great. :) Just forget about the timings in my srt file, they will not match the film, I will sync these up as soon as I get the files from SilverWook, I am looking forward to that with horror as I know sub syncing is a real bitch to do. ;) 

Yeah, we are in the same time zone, but I am actually more than often awake at nights due to working day and night-shifts. 

Just take your time erri_wan, no hurry. Grazie! :)

Thanks for helping out, erri_wan. :) If an avi file of the restored original cut will make your work any easier, let me know. The reason I am asking is because I realized it can maybe be a little tricky for you to locate the lines in my transcription sometimes, if you not have access to the English audio when the timings are all over the place. I don't know how familiar you are with the english audio, so it was just a thought I had if it will make the job of comparing any easier.

About the translating, SilverWook said he would like a word for word translation and I would also like to have that option if it's possible (as close as you possibly can get it), even if it seems a little weird and unusual to do, because I also think the opening narration is a reflection of those creative liberties they took with the story, so to not include them would be a little odd imo. And I also find it interesting when the studio cut out some of Lucas' bizarre humour in the American release, the Italian dubbers added their own. That alone is worthy of preservation. :)

We can of course have another english faithful subtitle track if that's something you want. That will be easily done.

Btw, I'm a Swedish guy.

Very nice interview, thank you so much for sharing. :)

Thanks for checking, didn't think they would differ like that.

none said:

"Phil Tippett Emipire VES UK" (sic) [Visual Effects Society]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyHSvlo4m54

Seems to be his personal channel [PhilsAttic], a few other SW bits, some Robocop 2, Starship Troopers +more

Nice, thanks for posting. I'm still amazed how damn creative the old ILM'ers were back then, true heroes...

Thanks for posting this, canofhumdingers. :)

erri_wan said:

msycamore said:

the DVD is to no use for us as they are for the "Director's Cut" with its many dialogue differences, that's why I've made a new English sub-stream for the restored original cut in the first place. At first I had planned to just fill in the blanks with the few audio differences you and SilverWook had pointed out, but when I found out that they had taken such liberties in the dubbing, it altered that plan. So, I'll need your help if I'm gonna do this.

Still, I can use most of the dialogues from the DVD, being careful with the re-edited parts and adding the extended parts (which we already translated). It makes the difference for me between accomplishing it in a month instead of four. I study medicine and I cannot dedicate a lot of time to re-translate an entire film from zero.

Yes, but again, why would you want to do that, when my srt file is a complete English transcription of the original cut your Italian cut is based upon. Some dialogue and scenes of the original and Italian cut doesn't even appear in the DVD version. So there is no way around it, the DVD is to no help if you want a complete comparison with the Italian dub. You will just need to alter the lines in my srt file where the Italian dubbers took some liberties. We're not talking months here, you will not need to re-translate it from scratch, I doubt it's that different. If you don't want to translate them right away just mark the differences you spot and post them here in this thread, and maybe Leonardo is willing to help out, the more the merrier. ;) here's my file, http://www.sendspace.com/file/pjp2y9  it's not synced and fine adjusted yet, but all the lines are there.

SilverWook said:

I won the original auction . The only other bidder didn't outgun me by very much. I suspect it was some bearded guy living on a ranch in Northern California. ;)

Hopefully, I can arrange a screening over the weekend.

Oh...so you did get it, you bastard! ;) I simply misread your earlier post about being outbid, that is fantastic! Congratulation. :)

NTSC Empire

13588

145590

I don't have the PAL-disc at hand to check, is those errors in the PAL version as well, Red5?

erri_wan said:

haha, you raised a very interesting problem. Wether to keep the slightly creative translation or dump it?

ALL things considered, I would say we dump the creative translations and be faithful to the original English script.

This also means less work for me because if you want a "correct" translation then we can simply take the Italian subtitles from the DVD because (wait till you hear this) the subtitles on Italian DVDs are proper translation of the English language and not a transcription of the Italian dubbing (this means that in DVDs we've got Italian language that does not match exactly the Italian subtitles).

No we can't, the DVD is to no use for us as they are for the "Director's Cut" with its many dialogue differences, that's why I've made a new English sub-stream for the restored original cut in the first place. At first I had planned to just fill in the blanks with the few audio differences you and SilverWook had pointed out, but when I found out that they had taken such liberties in the dubbing, it altered that plan. So, I'll need your help if I'm gonna do this.

SilverWook said:

I want to see how those things look on the 16mm print before going any further with colors and tints. Taking the whole DVD sequence logos and all would save us some headaches if it's our only good source.

What 16mm print, have you found a new seller? if so, that is great. :)

SilverWook said:

Given how unique the ITA recording is, I think it ought to be presented in it's entirety on "Disc 2" with any potential extras. (Possibly add a text introduction explaining what we think it is?) And the Italian dialog should be subbed verbatim. (It's also not that hard to have two subtitle tracks?) Even if it's not the "Freaks Up Front" version, it ought to be preserved much like how Criterion presented both cuts of Brazil on LD and DVD.

Yes, the entire Italian cut should be preserved on its own of course, and two English subtitle tracks is no problem if that is desirable, but then I must get some help, either from erri_wan or Leonardo.

At this point we can just assume it is the regular Italian cut until erri_wan find out what the Italian video releases was like before the DVD release came along.

Interesting finds, Red5! very useful when audiosyncing. I've also noticed a few interlacing errors on the NTSC ESB, one occurs when Luke is to grab the lightsaber in the ice cave and the other when Lando is being strangled by Chewie, I have to compare those scenes with the PAL disc.

SilverWook said:

msycamore, I noticed when comparing to the ITA version that there was some cropping on the right hand of the frame. When the ITA pans to the right of frame, more picture info was there. I think some amount of cropping occurs in a lot of Laserdisc era letterbox transfers.

Yeah, I actually don't think the cropping on the LD looks that bad at all, it was just that particular one I thought was a little odd as it have much more picture information to the left than the DVD and I was just a little curious if you had noticed the same thing happen on other places as well. I think I'll check my tape.

SilverWook said:

I think the Beta was cropped on all sides, actually. The color on the titles is pretty close to what I saw. The AZ logo looks good too.

Ok, thanks. So should the Buck Rogers clip be in black & white or sepia, or should we even consider using the whole opening from the DVD? I think we should, we now know the opening titles should be green and it could also be less jarring instead of going from LD footage to DVD back and forth more than once. So I think I'll wait till I have your files until I do anything more on this, we need this to be perfect.

erri_wan, could you perhaps compare my English subtitle stream for the restored original cut with your Italian audio, and make corrections where the Italian dubbers was a little creative? It could be a little tiresome for you if they changed many lines instead of just translating them, but it's the only way if we want a true translation of the Italian audio instead of the original lines. Let me know, and I'll send the file to you.

And also let me know if this is actually how you all want it, we could go both ways in the subtitling.

Hi there,

yes, it has already been proven. You're right, the DC/Faces/Gout master of SW is closer than the earlier video transfers in the scene with R2-D2 in the canyon, it should be twilight as you can see on the in-theater-reference pictures back in this thread and that is also the case on the '81 re-release prints as they only spliced in a new crawl on those, I'm not sure but there was probably new prints made for the re-releases as well, but that a new supervised colortiming was made on those isn't likely.

You could see the same thing on many early video releases from the 80's where scenes shot day for night wasn't accurately done for home video, in JAWS, I remember that the opening shark attack was often in broad daylight for example. However, the Gout master is heavily red tinted in those scenes, more so than in the rest of the film.

To have deleted scenes in better quality than the actual films.

Bizarro indeed. :)

Nice! :) Never seen that before, similar to the earlier video cover you posted.

I've started to fiddle with the DC DVD-opening again, I noticed that the Buck Rogers footage is much more zoomed in on the Laserdisc transfer compared to how it appear on the DC DVD. How does the betamax tape compare?

Laserdisc

DVD - degraded & resized to 4:3 Letterbox, I removed the ugly blue tint to restore the original Black & White photography.

Even though Buck Rogers was shot in black & white, I thought that maybe the clip was presented in a sepia-like tone on the THX-print as the LD suggests, but if you look at the Laserdisc AZ-logo you can actually see the same tint, or am I wrong? How does the betamax tape compare, is it in plain black & White?

Laserdisc

DVD - degraded & resized to 4:3 Letterbox

Laserdisc

DVD - degraded & resized to 4:3 Letterbox, so how is the green color on this, am I even close?

I'll post a 4:3 and 16:9 clip for you when I have tinkered with it a little more and we'll see if we can make it work. I'm not sure if we want to reproduce the same edge enhancement, it would be nice if we could try to reduce that a little on the LD-capture.

I've also noticed something weird, the aspect ratio on the LD transfer seems to be vertically stretched when compared to the DVD-footage or perhaps vice versa. You can see this throughout the film, not only on the screen-caps above but also on the site which compared the transfers side by side posted earlier in this thread. Any thoughts on this?

Laserdisc

Are there many instances of this bad type of cropping, SilverWook?

DVD

And damn what I hate this guy! ;)

If there only wasn't altered footage where it appears...

Nice, thanks for the update, Puggo. :)