msycamore

An easy way to see the discoloration, a screencap of one of the white flashes with the saturation turned to the max.

When listening to those parts I'm surprised that I have never noticed their absence in the regular stereo track until you pointed them out, you have great ears hairy_hen! don't think I never would've been able to spot the hyperspace sound effect, it makes you wonder if there is more of these subtle differences we haven't spotted yet. What makes these two unique is that they are the only differences that are exclusively heard in the surround where as other differences was also heard in the main channels, hmm... they could very much be '93 additions but it's unfortunately impossible to tell.

hairy_hen said:

Been going through the theatre recording with everything except the low frequencies muted, and while the bass is often indistinct and not of good quality, it does seem pretty similar to how they mixed it in 1993 for the most part, though not exact.  I'll probably keep the LFE channel mostly the same as before, but I may change a few things based on what I'm hearing.

Tell us about what you're hearing. :) I'm curious.

I can't thank you enough for doing this h_h, love your attention to detail and perfectionism and your willing to improve on what already was awesome. Thank you! :) Can we look forward to some samples of your recent improvements? I'm dying to hear the results. Keep it up!

It's a good question none, ever since '97 I have wondered what kind of manipulation caused these unnatural flashes of pink, I can't recall if it was like that in the theaters back in '97, I always thought it had something to do with the contrast issues and the pink tint in the '97 telecine as many things got screwed up on that but when the DVD also had those unnatural flashes... the GOUT is washed out and have clipped whites but the kind of highly saturated flashes seen in the SE isn't normal.

Also if the lasers in the corridor shootout got recomped in '97 or '04 they did a very good job as they match the originals perfectly in timing and appearance as far as I can see, something they never bothered with in any other place in the trilogy were they recomped, they definitely look like the original elements but maybe they tried out some kind of digital enhancement on them in a few places, I don't know.

One example is the screeching sound heard just before the explosion of the first Y-Wing that is taken out by Vader in the trench.

SilverWook said:

How does the pan and scan process actually work? I can't recall reading anything that went into the nuts and bolts of the process. Are shots panned and scanned during the transfer process or after?

I have no idea how it really worked, sometimes the operator was even forced to make new cuts in the middle of a scene instead of panning back and forth between the important sections of the action, IIRC it happens several times in the SW transfers.

reave said:

Fingers crossed that your tape looks decent, but even if it doesn't, I would still like to make a preservation disc of it.

If the version aired on HBO really is the one used on the LD's and CED, you could maybe take use of those if you want better quality for the main feature. Like russs15 described, time-compressed meant it was just sped up by 4% just like PAL-speedup, so I think a simple conversion should do the trick.

Darth Editous said:

So I'm looking at the GOUT crawl for ANH - y'know, the one missing the whole "Episode IV/A New Hope" bit. I've got a vague memory of reading that the GOUT crawl is actually a modern recreation - the opening logo is a much straighter version than on the "later" crawl, and the lines of the crawl are split differently - because the rest of the GOUT is based on a laserdisc master that did have "A New Hope" on it.

The opening crawl on the '06 Bonus disc is not a recreation, if they really went through such an unnecessary and tedious effort, I must say they did an extremely well done recreation because the opening is a completely perfect match down to every little small detail, the compositing of the crawl, starfield, planets, ships, lasers, impacts and mattelines are exact.

Darth Editous said:

Also, the GOUT crawl doesn't show the same "bend" at the bottom right that the special editions and later (and possibly earlier) do. Did they just do a poor job when they made the "Episode IV crawl" in 1980?

The specific angle of the original '77 crawl was what both Empire and Jedi emulated, when they did the revised ANH crawl the angle was for some reason different, ironically introducing a new inconsistency with the other crawls, which basically have become Lucas' staple over the years, as soon as he tries to fix something another thing gets broken. The revised crawl also came out a little bit skewed and have been so since '81. They did a nice job with the recomposited ships to get rid of the thick matteline around the Stardestroyer but the flaws already mentioned combined with different timing causing the music not match the visuals makes the whole thing poorly done. The '81 starfield was also taken from Empire, in '97 they went back to the original starfield and recomposited all the elements digitally.

EDIT: Sorry for my bullshit about the different angle, did take take a look at the '81 crawl and the angle isn't that much different from the sequels, ignore what I said. ;)

davisdvd.com said:

What You Didn't Know: Despite popular belief, this was not the only transfer made of Star Wars. At some point, a second fullscreen video transfer was created from a 16mm flat print source. Since an anamorphic (2.35:1) 35mm print had been reduced down to a flat (1.33:1) 16mm print, this 16mm source featured different pan & scan decisions made during the print reduction. One main difference in this transfer was that Luke's macrobinocular POV shot of the Banthas was squeezed to actually show the Tusken Raider walking to the side of the frame. This video transfer was only shown on HBO and was never offered for sale or rent [ Special Thanks to David C. Fein ]

When reading this again, it doesn't seem to be correct. From what I have seen the '82 HBO/CED/LD transfer was made from the same source that the other pan & scan transfers - '82 US Betamax/VHS and '85 LD was made from. The same ugly splices, glue marks and damage can be found on them even though the transfers are different with its different pan & scan decisions and framing. It seems all video transfers from '82 to '89/'92 was made from the same IP/source until they digged up a different IP in '92, this one seems to have first been used on the '92 Special Letterbox Collector's Edition VHS then later used for the '93 SWE LD (technidisc), '93 Definitive Collection and '95 Faces.

Thanks, Darth Hade, I hope so. It's just that it feels like I have worked on this forever, and my shitty computer keeps getting in the way, I really need to upgrade.

Harmy said:

Sorry, man, didn't mean to get snappy :-)

It's cool, man. You have all the reasons to get snappy sometimes. :)

Harmy said:

Um, you mean would be equally problematic to despecialize, right?

 I guess that would be a better way to describe it, yes.

Harmy said:

I knew these were recomposited the first time around and chose to leave them and nothing's changed.

Well, I didn't come in here to say you didn't know.

Sorry for the lack of updates but I have had some damn computer problems again! :( I am still testing out some different filters for degrading the opening titles...

TServo2049 said:

It DOES look like the element was slightly rotated. No idea WHY...

It definitely was, I guess it's because no effort was made to make an exact match of the original composites, very few has been made with that mentality, some of them were for the '97SE but even those aren't an exact match. All recomposites done on the trilogy end up with slightly different positions in relation to their surroundings, timings, flight paths and timings of lasers etc. I guess it wasn't their priority to get them exact as the average viewer or even we in some cases who knows these films backwards and forwards will not see the difference unless we compare with the original composites. As you can see on that comparison pic 005 posted, the different angle of the lower Stardestroyer is not the only difference, those pics are synced up.

TServo2049 said:

The only drawback is that the bigger stars don't really glow like they do in the GOUT - can we blame crushed blacks again?

Where as the 2004 footage have crushed blacks, the GOUT have clipped whites instead, I guess that's why you have the difference. The following shots of the fleet will be equally problematic to despecialize.

Well, there actually exist more than one source out there, TServo2049.

Will have to take a listen to these parts myself and I completely trust hairy_hen on this, my mention of that source was just a recommendation to actually be sure.

"I was told that Lucas dragged his feet and hemmed and hawed that Star Wars needed restoration work before it could go on deposit, and then what was sent was the 1997 version."

This makes me furious, that "restoration work" ultimately became the SE, the sneaky bastard dragged his feet until he made that version and making the deal with Fox around '97 or '98 so that he now completely owned the rights to the first film.

You wanted me to post examples of the DVNR-smear on the '97 LD, here are some examples.

Top: US '97SE LD - 4102985 / Bottom: SWE LD (technidisc)

I was wrong about the artifacts I mentioned on the blockade runner-shootout also appearing in the '97 broadcasts, they are not affected by this, take a look at these nasty artifacts.

SWE LD (technidisc) - the first laser blast when the stormtroopers comes through the door

the same frames on the '97SE LD

GOUT is also affected, but not as bad as the '97 LD

and this is how it continues on the '97 LD, I'm actually not sure what caused some of these artifacts, some look like DVNR and some do not. Judge for yourself on this series of frames:

Top: SWE LD (technidisc) / Bottom: '97SE LD -  Black fire...

A series of frames from the SWE LD:

and the same series of frames on the '97SE LD:

none said: 

For the SE were all the laser gun fire bolts recomp'd? 

The lightsaber core issue which was addressed for the BD, could the same be thought of the laser blasts?

 

I have also had my thoughts on this but it's very difficult to study, the GOUT and '97 transfers are heavily smeared causing some of the blasts to look off, I think you need to compare with the pre-DVNR transfers to more easily see if it's been done or not. 

SilverWook said:

I've not seen the squeezed macrobinocular shot in any of the early home video transfers, only in the "HBO version". 

That shot is squeezed in the transfer used for the '82 CED and LD release, the '82 tapes and later Pan & Scan releases used a different transfer. So the info Mallwalker provided is probably true aside from the part that it wasn't offered for sale, the HBO broadcast would be interesting to have preserved as the CED and LD's were time-compressed.

thxita said:

Marvellous!

Did the codice fiscale trick work then?

Yes, it did. Thanks. :)

doubleofive said:

Star Wars:

Won Academy Award for Best Art Direction
Won Academy Award for Best Costume Design
Won Academy Award for Best Film Editing*
Won Academy Award for Best Visual Effects*
Won Academy Award for Best Original Score
Won Academy Award for Best Sound*
Won Special Achievement Award for Sound Effects Editing*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Actor in a Supporting Role (Alec Guinness)
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Original Screenplay (George Lucas)*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Director (George Lucas)*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Picture*

The Empire Strikes Back:

Won Special Achievement Award for Visual Effects*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Music, Original Score+
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Art Direction - Set Decoration

Return of the Jedi:

Won Special Achievement Award for Visual Effects*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Art Direction/Set Decoration
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Sound Effects Editing*
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Music, Original Score+
Nominated for Academy Award for Best Sound*

*Not available in this release.
+Mostly there

I would say that the Art Direction/Set Decoration for Empire isn't exactly the same anymore either.

hairy_hen said:

For anyone who's interested, take a listen to the '93 mix when R2 gets blasted by the Jawas, and listen to the rear-channel echo just after this.  Now listen to the '85 and '77 stereo mixes: hey, that sound's not there!  It isn't in the mono mix either, but it is in the SE's.  Is it a '93 addition, or was it part of the 70mm version?  I can't decide.  The in-theatre 70mm recording doesn't seem to have it, at least not the one I have, but then that recording doesn't seem to have any of the surround effects at all, so that tells me nothing; also, the mono version completely omits everything that was in the surround channel of the others anyway, so again that's inconclusive.  There's another sound like that during the shot of the Millennium Falcon in hyperspace, a sort of 'backdraft' or something in the surround, which is only heard in the '93 and no other.  Again, I have no idea whether it was a part of the 70mm version or not.  What to do, what to do . . .

Interesting, never noticed the difference before. When you describe them I know exactly what soundeffects you refer to. Damn, that's a tough decision on what to do, have you already checked David Morgan's audio files if any surrounds can be heard in those sequences? http://www.wideanglecloseup.com/starwarsaudio.html I'm not able to do so myself at the moment.

Nice to hear that you won that magazine SilverWook. I ended up buying that Italian tape afterall.

If you're interested 005, this recomposite was indeed used on page 305 in Rinzler's making of.

This is how starwars.com described some of it in their old article.

"Color Reversal Internegative: Opticals created on CRI stock, which had deteriorated, were recomposited in various shots including the Star Destroyer capturing Leia's ship and X-wings flying through the Death Star trench."

The effect is almost an exact match to the original shot, only the slightly different position of the background and the lack of mattelines tell the difference.

The other shot I pointed out is even more subtle with the mattelines being the only difference as far as I can see, "the black garbage" seen in front of the cockpit was oddly enough not cleaned up.

Worked and experimented with the opening titles yesterday and the results were pretty good, have a few more things I would like to test out before posting samples. 

Did you won that auction, SilverWook?

As Toht once said, "The man is nefarious."

This really proves what a fucking asshole this man has become. 

TServo2049 said:

Do those blobs appear on that scene on any of the video releases prior to the JSC?

 

msycamore said:

That IP isn't from '85, the JSC LD is sourced from the same elements the '82 LD and CED comes from, the same weird damage is seen there, same dirt spots, glue marks etc. Even though these elements wasn't as dirty as the ones the THX transfers was made from it was pretty damn rough even as early as '82.

^^ Yes. And it's also on the '85 LD, I agree that it almost look like water damage if that's even possible.

Was that camera shake really an optical effect? seems very tedious when you can just hit/shake the camera on set.