msycamore

wwdarth said:

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but...

"How ya fealin' kid...ya don't look so bad to me"..

Chewie's noises are all missing.  I'm beginning to think this was a FOX in house made custom audio mix..in all likelihood NOT by Ben Burtt...keeping in mind that it would probably be played through one speaker...and what we're hearing are perhaps accidental omissions.  

Yeah, it's possible but some things heard in this mix was carried over to the SE-remix years later, so the possibility of it being done by Ben Burtt shouldn't be excluded.

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Yeah there is blown-out stuff on both ends (whites and blacks).  That's just the way it is - it's a primitive process.

Like I said, it's not that bad and it still destroy any official version out there, love it! :)

When I get the time I'll post examples where both your transfer and even my LD is more detailed than the 2004 transfer. Even the motion smeared '97 SE looks better in some instances, that's really how bad the situation is. The Lowry process ate up tons of detail, so if everything goes well with the project of -1 & company, some people will be surprised by how much detail that was lost in those hideous transfers.

russs15 said:

it was my attempt to show my quirky British sense of humour as well as well as to see if there was any other interest in an SE standard.

Sorry, I should've understood that it was said in jest.

Jetrell Fo, I've decided to post my files to usenet.

russs15 said:

There has been far too much Original Trilogy nonsense around here lately...

Should this comment of yours be taken seriously or was it a joke?

Personally I don't care for the SE, IMO it's a true bastardization that only degrades the original film, but I sympathize with those of you who would like it to be preserved. I first downloaded it in order to help cataloguing all the changes that's been done for 005's thread, and then thought what the heck I might even try to make a corrected version out of it when I'm at it. It's not like I've done anything special no one else can do for themselves, the broadcasts are out there and torrented, I just converted it to NTSC, fixed the AR and restored the missing frames, so far no one has contacted me about this, maybe someone more invested in this than me that have the skills with audio will do what I don't.

Sorry for bringing this into your thread, borisanddoris. I think it's really fantastic that you guys have obtained these discs and working on getting these mixes preserved.

Yeah, I followed your advice and took the audio off the 704-cap as I didn't want to use the audio from the 8210 as it had the frames that couldn't be restored, but now I fear that there might be similar glitches in the 704 as well. I recall there was frame differences between all the caps when I was about to attempt using an multi-cap average or median script way back. So maybe that's why I have trouble getting it to sync, not really sure about this being the case, at this stage it's just a theory of mine that the audio could also have been affected if there's a few hiccups in the video along the way.

AntcuFaalb said:

Regarding the weird AR scene(s) mentioned earlier: I have a fully-automated method to find these. Would anyone be interested in the results for each of the GOUT DVDs?

The fully-automated method is just a mixture of AviSynth's AutoCrop (modified to set the fopen(3) mode to append) and a Perl script.

Sounds interesting. I'm sure that might come in handy for some if it works.

Darth Mallwalker said:

You're interested in ROTJ then msycamore probably isn't the one to ask ;-)

Yeah, I'm not a big fan but I do actually own a GOUT-copy of it, albeit not purchased ;)

msthec1, this thread is aimed for the SWE LD which is the '81 re-release version, not the SE LD's. You might want to check this thread instead: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/LeeThorogoods-PAL-LaserDisc-Preservation-Project-97-SE-Finished-95-THX-Finished-97-SE-Uploaded-95-THX-Uploaded-to-the-newsgroup/topic/11824/

Thanks to none and mallwalker, we can now add another print to the list of transfers containing the cloudy composite. You cannot see the ships due to the fuzzy quality but once you know exactly what to look for you cannot miss it.

Catnap and LD

Along with the NTSC '80's home video releases, this makes the Catnap the 2nd version with the cloudy composite combined with the more common credit roll, so this doesn't seem to have any connection with the revised credit roll. For a time I thought that could've been a possibility even though it appeared in the early video transfers.

^ the above statement is just me talking crap, the Catnap bootleg contains the rare credit roll.

With this extremely subtle and minor difference you have to wonder why they even bothered and what the heck else they thought was worthy of a correction. They surely couldn't have just bothered replacing one single composite when making new prints? And when was it done? Haven't checked starkiller boot yet.

Harmy said:

No problem :-) I noticed this when I was  editing and I had the HD video scaled down in a small window. Too bad it still doesn't satisfactorily explain the vertical vs. horizontal issue.

Well, if we try to make a breakdown of this.

In Star Wars, the original composite of the Leia hologram appear with thick horizontal lines in early letterbox transfers but not in any pan & scan transfer I've checked, clearly the issue of what you recently demonstrated. The composite have thin vertical scanlines that are hard to notice in the various low-res transfers.

In ESB; we have a similar thing with the hologram of the officers, where the pre-GOUT transfers displayed horizontal lines, but again, it should in fact just be vertical ones, oddly enough GOUT didn't create these "fake" horizontal lines this time.

The Emperor hologram seems to be the only one with thicker horizontal scanlines, they also appear on pan & scan video, '97 broadcast, Puggo's 16mm, 35mm references etc.

In Jedi, the hologram of Luke had very thick horizontal lines in GOUT but not in the '97 digital broadcast, must also be a case of what you just demonstrated. I'm just going on 005's comparison pics in this case.

The dotpattern on Vader's communication-screen, and the binocular shot in ESB just gave the illusion of having just horizontal lines in some early transfers, no mystery there. I think you just explained the issue or am I missing something?

The way I understand it, the only hologram with horizontal lines is the Emperor, all others have vertical ones. Except that Vader in the recent example of ours that seem to have very thin horizontals, but do they appear in the Blu-ray or film prints as well?

Nice demonstration, Harmy. So, none was entirely correct about this then. Thanks for solving this little mystery for me.

^ Yeah, digital broadcast it is. :)

GOUT vs. Puggo Strikes Back

the differences in how these holograms appears in certain transfers still baffles me. Here the thinner scanlines in the 16mm match the '97 and '04 transfers.

Btw, can someone who have access to the other bootlegs of Star Wars out there check which version of the ships taking off sequence that is present in those transfers, Catnap and Starkiller etc. None, you seem to have a vast library, I'm curious.

Trooperman said:

Lando walking down the hallway.  His line: "So you see..." is clearly audible in the mono, not in the stereo (although it is there, faintly).

^ Some reverb seems to have been added to their voices in that sequence as well, listen to Lando's voice when they're about to walk around the corner in the hallway down the stairs. Some added Chewbacca vocalization short after that, heard over the shot when Boba Fett makes his entrance after Vader's "We would be honored if you would join us."

Ok, I'm starting to get really pissed and tired of all the obstacles I am facing with this project, my respect for all people working with audio has also increased very much lately, you would think getting this to sync would be a pretty easy task, but I have some serious problem with it, don't know why that is. But I now remember that there was frame differences between all different captures of the US LD when I tried to align them for a potential median or average script. So I may need to locate these spots and see what's going on... sigh.

I should perhaps explain that there was some weird glitch in the video capture I used for the main bulk of the video, where a sequence couldn't be IVTC'd, whatever I throwed at it, I couldn't restore those frames, luckily it turned out to be what I described, a glitch of some sort as the many other captures Silver sent me didn't have that problem and it could easily be IVTC'd. So, with the recommendation from SilverWook I opted to take the audio from another capture as I felt if that weird video glitch was in there I'll better take the audio from one of the other to be on the safe side that there's no issues with the audio as well.

Sorry that this is taking an eternity, but all the problems and bad luck I've had working on this, have made me take some breaks from time to time due to frustration, if I cannot manage to get a perfect sync of the audio, I'll upload my work-files or send it to someone who can handle this.

^ yeah, the question of the stupid Swedish name Tuggbak has been brought up many times, it came up in discussions on this page as well: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Stj-rnornas-Krig-Swedish-16mm-print/topic/11896/page/5/

Don't understand how I could've missed this thread. This is awesome! loved your previous effort, thanks for sharing 7FN! :)

TServo2049 said:

I've never had a bad burn on this drive that I can remember; is anybody else having a problem, or is it maybe something on my end?

I did get the usenet version and no such problem on my end, I also used ImgBurn.

Huge thank you Puggo for your great work on this and to rsortor and Jaxxon for providing their prints! A real delight to watch, the only negative about it I can think about is the blown out highlights, but I guess that was something that couldn't be recovered, I recall it was discussed early on in the project if some of that detail could be salvaged, and it's not that bad.

There's also a few sequences on Hoth and Dagobah were there's a monotone blue palette where it appears to lack a bigger range of colors, which is most likely a problem with the source as well. Otherwise I thought the colors were exceptional, loved seeing the warm hues inside Yoda's hut and the warm hues in the Cloud City hallway that was altered in the THX/GOUT transfer.

As already pointed out, there's a ton of differences in this mono audio mix, in everything from additional lines of dialogue, different takes, mixing levels, score and added reverb/echo on some dialogue etc. Wonder if this still is a fold-down of a different stereo mix, it was clearly done at a much later stage in the films release and you really have to wonder if this was an additional theatrical mix done for foreign markets or a re-release? One things for sure, lots of work went into it. It will be interesting to hear what the audio is on the other print.

Thank you Puggo!! :)

This is really interesting news about the audio, like I posted earlier in the thread, ESB was released in at least five different formats in its original release:

1) 70mm six-track Dolby-encoded magnetic
2) 70mm six-track non-Dolby-encoded magnetic
3) 35mm with optical mono soundtrack
4) 35mm with optical Stereo Variable Area (Dolby) soundtrack
5) 35mm with mag-optical soundtrack (magnetic 4-track + optical mono)

Never heard about or thought they did a dedicated mix in mono like they did for Star Wars, but this proves that at least 16mm prints and perhaps foreign markets got yet another mix. We all thought this would be a fold-down but this is a unique mix, really cool! :)

The date is: 2006-06-28

none said:

What is the date of the vob's in your version?

 How do I check that, what software do I use?

none said:

If you have d_j's Version 3, could you look at the cropping of the first frame there. My version of that looks similar to the US/Europe posted above. Can the black bars be displayed differently between programs?

d_j's Version 3 is resized and utilized the stabilization script of g-force so there's additional cropping on it.

Very nice to hear that you have finished this! I know that you want us to lower our expectations but I already know that this release of ESB will completely destroy every version out there as of now. :)

TServo2049 said:

I think there's some kind of distortion in the GOUT transfer, where it's more squeezed on the edges than in the middle...

That is correct, noticed that when I corrected the AR for my Technidisc. I wonder if the '77 crawl/opening shot on the GOUT is distorted as well? The egg-shaped moon look suspicious, it has been mentioned that this was an characteristic of the original '77 composite but after seeing the distortion in the GOUT transfer I wonder if that is true even if the source of the opening is something different than the '93 master.

captainsolo said:

The bass and surrounds have been redone to meet modern standards, but to me the sonic identity of the original mix is a part of the film's identity. I hope it isn't lost with new stereo surrounds being done (Didn't Jambe's Raiding confirm that the film was originally mixed for stereo surrounds?)

The sound elements was originally recorded in stereo but it was never utilized back then, Last Crusade was the only one with split surrounds originally. In addition to the new stereo surrounds, a few sound effects have apparently been added as well.

Great, another classic turned into Transformers.

^ interesting, any differences in frame counts, IVTC? Maybe you have the screenshots mislabeled, because my US copy match your Jap, Hong Kong screenshot in cropping.

fishmanlee said:

I am not exactly a fan of Hoffman's mastering of Raiders, the choir is reduced to almost nothing, and the Tuba's are wayy too prominent.

Then it is the original mix you aren't a fan of. It has nothing to do with Hoffman's mastering, which is superb. What you hear is a difference between original film mix vs. album master mix.

timdiggerm said:

But I have no idea why they're only in some versions.

Good question, the sources I've checked confirms that the version with the composited clouds was on '77 prints with the rare credits roll. So I suppose the composite without clouds was added to prints later down the road.