msycamore

I just wanted to mention one thing about the revised colortiming and contrast levels on the binary sunset that was done on this transfer in '93, dark_jedi and I talked about it, but opted to leave it alone as there is one major problem, a wipe to the garage at the end of the scene. I believe that is something you cannot treat easily within avisynth scripting unfortunately.

Darth Editous said:

Have you considered blurring the subtitles, very slightly? I'd go so far as to say it would be mandatory for viewing on a CRT, to eliminate interlace flicker, but even on a flat TV it mgiht stop it looking quite so "stamped on".

DE

Here is how they look on my encode

I'm quite pleased with how they turned out, especially with the limited Avisynth experience I have. They are far from perfect and the shitty video quality of the Gout make them seem even more "stamped on". The Interlace flicker you're talking about isn't any problem as that and aliasing is something that's already handled within the Avisynth scripting as far as I remember, they're looking great on my old CRT TV. But I would like to improve them of course, Moth3r suggested to apply grain to them in my thread some time ago but I haven't found the knowledge and time to do so yet. Sorry, g-force for taking up your thread with this.

g-force said:

msycamore,

could you post your subs script? I want to compare the timing to mine.

-G

You have my script at the bottom of this page:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Greedo-Jabba-subtitles-theatrical-positioning-and-font-script-video-clip-added/topic/11463/

the timing is exactly the same as in moth3r's pwnage script which is timed perfectly against the bootleg telecine, the same timing goes for the subs in Puggo Grande which is believed to using the same theatrical subtitles. I haven't checked but I believe my script also have different line breaks than yours, just so you know.

timdiggerm said:

Just wanted to take this moment to say that on the 1977-1981 technicolor dye print that I saw in Baltimore this year, Greedo's subs were yellow.

Thanks for the info, very interesting! It would be great to have some pics from it, not because I'm not believing you, more to see what else they changed about them in '81.

Edit: Damn! what was I thinkin, that was a '77 print! Then this may prove the bootleg telecine and 16mm subs not theatrical authentic. Weird, a photo or filming of that screening backing this up would be really welcome. Are you sure about this, timdiggerm?

lordhelmet77 said:

Ok, sorry if this caused any confusion. I just looked it up, and I think you're right, white is the correct way to go. Of course... they were changed yellow later for the SE, how could I have forgotten that...

 The SE alien subs were also white in the theaters, at least in the US.

Just so you know, d_j, don't feel that you'll have to use my subs if you don't want to, just do what pleases most people here and especially g-force, I don't want to step on his toes, he is the guy who have worked on these great scripts for a very long time, myself are not even going to watch this film, I've never been a fan of Jedi. I know, kind of strange coming from a guy working on the subs for it. ;) But I mostly made them cause you asked me to.

Doctor M said:

Wait, really?  My memory must be going.  Was that true for the laserdiscs as well?

Yes, they were all white in the theater, even in the prequels. But I don't know about the different laserdiscs though.

It depends what subs you all are talking about, the opening crawl has yellow subs but the so called huttese alien language in all films were always white in the cinema, and I'm no sub expert d_j, just an observer. ;)

doubleofive said:

However, of all the wipes, this one is the only one that actually starts later than the original:

Very strange.

 This new wipe is also identical in timing to the '97SE.

doubleofive said:

Alrighty, the new optical wipes aren't timed perfectly to the originals. Conspiracy theory lessened. The fact that, save for one wipe, they all (I even found another one) begin first in the SE just enough to cover up the original wipe must be a coincidence.

I'll try to check a few of the other ones and see if they're also identical in timing.

I can see now when you've added the latest one that the matte painting have actually been slightly altered, look closely for a different light pattern in the top right area.

Here's another difference.

In the original film these two lights are pulsating, a nice little animated effect that helps bring the matte painting to life, they are just static in the '97/'04 version.

No, there are a few more. But if I remember correctly the later DVD releases removed all but this one.

I've heard they removed some of them, are they not even softsubbed on the later releases?

I checked that fade to C-3PO in the oil bath and the timing is exactly the same on the '97 SE as in the '04 DVD.

The subs describing what time it is.

I'm really not sure if it is available on LD, it was just me who took it for granted. It should be.

from dvdcompare:

1.) 'Tarman' zombie has a deep, guttural voice that remains constant throughout the film.
2.) The "send more cops" zombie also had his voice lowered to accurately represent someone whose been dead for 100+ years.
3.) The film's score has also been altered. One song, "Dead Beat Dance," which played near the beginning of the film as we are introduced to the punk kids driving in Suicide's car, has been removed due to legal clearances. Sadly, this is not uncommon in Hollywood. Every time a movie is released on a new format, every song has to be cleared by it's respective copyright owners. The song which has replaced "Dead Beat Dance" is strangely uncredited.
4.) Frank's suicide – In the original, "Burn the Flames" played over the entire scene. The problem here was that the producers felt that Frank's death scream would be too "disturbing" for audiences, and ordered the song to be played loudly throughout. The thing is (as O'Bannon states on the commentary track), that "disturbing" is what he *liked* about that scene, and to drown out Frank's scream robbed it of it's impact. The song is still in that scene but is faded out as Frank gets into the crematorium.
5.) One other song, "Take a Walk" has been changed. This song was probably the biggest offender in terms of making the actor's dialogue very hard to hear (the producers amped up the music through the whole movie, regardless of it's affect on the performances.) Now, the song does not begin until after the punk kids run out of the UNEEDA warehouse.
6.) All of the other songs remain as they were without alteration.
7.) After Burt and the gang cut up the corpse at UNEEDA but before the bonesaw is brought out, listen to the corpse's body flopping on the floor in the background.

I think the burned in text that appears throughout the film also were removed in some releases.

I haven't followed this project that close and don't know the details about what you're doing but couldn't Fullscreen or pan & scan transfers of the original trilogy be utilized for this kind of work you and adywan is doing?

Great idea. I love this cult classic but did never buy it on DVD just for this reason. I'll see if I can find any better info about the audio differences, a LD capture of the original audio track would be great.

ChainsawAsh said:

So, it seems to me that the way to go is to use the Japanese master for all shots but the ones with subtitles or channel logos in the picture, which would be replaced with the BBC HD version.

 Agree, would love to see that done.

doubleofive said:

Any way we can confirm the timing on the wipes or fades? Does the 97 fade to 3PO have as much blank screen as the 2004? That may be the easiest one to test.

EDIT: just realized that that was my frame, you just wanted me to replace the GOUT image with that one. Where did yours come from, so I can label it?

I'm not sure which fade you're talking about, I believe the wipes on the '04DVD is the same as on the '97SE, but I can of course check it for you.

Yes, that pic is from the JSC LD.

This is a '97 recomp, the '81 version only changed the opening scene and when it cuts to this shot it's back to '77 again.

I cannot see why they recomposited this shot, there is a different starfield but I can't see any significant improvement done, not to the blockade runner either, maybe the material was damaged or too dirty? Any ideas?

I like that picture. ;)

The DVD and Blu-ray includes the original theatrical trailer, but as you said, it would be a great extra, the original shortfilm could also be a cool feature. I really hope it's a different and better transfer of the film on that LD, it would be great!

SilverWook said:

Here is what the seller had to say:

"The white fleck is not present on the Japanese pressing. It has issues of its own though, with some speckling especially during the opening titles."

So. worth pursuing to combine the best of both discs? I'm satisfied it's a different transfer at this point, same print or not.

Interesting, hmm... I wonder if he is talking about the same dirt on the opening titles that is also present on both the US and UK transfers. If it really is a different transfer, it certainly is worth it imo. But I cannot help to not be a little sceptic about it, I noticed that the white speck didn't show up when viewed on my old CRT TV, so there is a slight possibility he could've missed it, and there is also the possibility of a different cropping but I guess we'll never find out if we don't give it a shot.

You have done a good job on this, doubleofive. Several changes I didn't know existed, the alternate takes for example, very interesting.

I checked the '97 version for you, and I can confirm that this Alderaan shot is a 2004 alteration.

...and maybe you could use this pic for a better demonstration of this comparison and definitely change the description of it.

I like how they managed to erase a big part of the speeder in the process of "improving" this shot. ;) 

Sorry, if my comment started something here...

Anyway, here's what g-force's script says,

########## black level/gamma, hue
Levels(10,1.08,255,0,255).Tweak(hue=-3)

it improves the black level and tweak the hue towards yellow, and I think he has found a great overall balance for it. I've tried to make my own settings several times but I always come back to these same values as I think it doesn't hurt other scenes in the films that much. It really is a compromise, it would of course be great to tweak some scenes individually, the binary sunset for example, but I don't know if it's really worth the trouble with this source.

But all this would maybe fit better in g-force's own thread, cause if I understand this correctly, dark_jedi only set out to make g-force's latest version more widely available for people, not tweaking it.