I didn't like the new look of certain scenes in the Directors Cut DVD either but the blu-ray seems very much improved to me, going by these new comparisons: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare2/alien.htm
Unfortunately it seems even more cropped than the DC DVD.
erri_wan said:
It's not really surprising, in the whole documentary Lucas wanted to show how he managed to win over the evil Empire that was Warner Bros... saying that in one country WB succeeded is something would be diminishing his own glory. I also would omit this info if I intended to self-elogiate myself like George always does. Plus, as far as we know, Lucas might honestly not know about it at all.
Yes, but that wasn't really what I meant. I'm thinking there's a big possibility your Italian version is the original 1971 US Warner Bros release cut, only dubbed. Not a slightly different version done by foreign distributors, (that could also be it, as the film was a real bummer in the US, and they would try different things to make it more popular) and if that is the case, I'm very doubtful the narration was part of the American release. That's not something that would hurt to be mentioned in the documentary. To me there's only three possibilities, either it is the Original Theatrical Cut or a slightly different International Cut (something never heard of) or a special TV-cut (how usual is that in Italy? Isn't that mostly an american thing, to censor things in movies for certain TV-stations?) Anyway, I'm very curious to see it. :) Nice cover BTW.
Cool find! These Radio spots would be nice to capture, unfortunately my player is broken. :(
Never seen that artwork before, is that the cover art on the novel, erri_wan? I do have a nice scanned collection of THX 1138 Posters and Lobby Cards but only from the '71 release, I also have the Italian poster SilverWook linked to a few pages ago, pm me if you're interested.
Anyway, the film was definitely set in the 25th Century. That's how the studio wanted it, not George Lucas. That's how I understand it from several interviews and articles I've read, Lucas even says this in the small TV-documentary from '71 "George Lucas - Maker of Films", where a young and skinny Lucas is very bitter about the whole thing. I recommend you to see it, if you haven't. http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/George-Lucas-Maker-of-Films-documentary/topic/10403/
According to IMDB, the film was released in November 1971 in France after it had premiered on Cannes in May that year, so it's possible it could have played in Italy around that time, maybe for a short time. I wonder if the beginning narration on this version is an Italian thing afterall, it seems odd that they wouldn't mention that in the DVD documentary when discussing the studio interference. They don't going into details though but it's a pretty big thing to not mention but everything is possible of course.
From the '04 DVD documentary - A Legacy of Filmmakers: The Early Years of American Zoetrope:
George Lucas - "I did have a bunch of meetings with executives where they wanted to...you know, take the end of the movie with the people on the parking lot, the little freaks running around in the back of the parking lot and put that ahead of the movie and doing the whole thing as a flashback." Lucas describes an studio executive saying, "What we need to do is put the freaks up front!" Matthew Robbins - "They wanted to re-orchestrate the movie to get some of the bizarre things in the very first reel" George Lucas - "Finally they cut 5 minutes out of it, it didn't make any sense."
Here's one of the things Lucas says about it in "Maker of Films" from '71:
"Walter Murch did most of the soundwork, montages, what have you. The one problem is, that's one of the things Warner Brothers altered considerably, it was much more abstract and much more musical. The film was designed as a kind of opera, you know kind of a musical sience fiction film. And the soundtrack was composed you know under purely musical concepts and they didn't quite understand that, they thought they all had to tell the story. So essentially the biggest change is that they have injected more story, what they thought was the story, that's the story of...they took out all of the humor and the happiness and people laughing and stuff because they didn't..." (the interviewer interrupts him) :(
adywan said:
The viewscreen surrounding is now transparent and you can see Piette's body through it
Damn you're right, I didn't notice that, there's also a horrible matteline around the screen in the SE. (but maybe that one is more visible because the viewscreen is much brighter)
I checked Puggos 8mm preservation which only includes the Vader-hologram in the AT-AT cockpit and the Emperor-hologram which is supposed to be the true 70mm version, but both seems to lack scanlines, the picture quality could be the reason as it has very blown out whites. Also, both the JSC and the GOUT Emperor-hologram couldn't possibly be using 70mm elements as that hologram doesn't slowly tune in when Vader appear before him.
zombie84 said:
I'm curious to see what the 16mm reels look like. They are taken from the 70mm version, no?
Yes, it would be very interesting, I think he said it was the 35mm cut of the film but it would be interesting nevertheless. I really hope Puggo ends up doing a transfer of it, love his Grande. On Puggos super-8 which have a 70mm Emperor hologram, it is very hard to see due to bad quality, but I think I'll take a look again...
LexX said:
How about SW and ROTJ?
SW is already checked, there's no difference in holograms between the JSC and GOUT but they removed the horizontal scanlines for the SE, how Jedi is, I don't know.
zombie84 said:
Aha. So the scanlines are definitely entirely different elements between the GOUT and JSC. Its not a DVNR thing, these are two separate versions of the composites.
Yes, it seems like it. The only explanation must be minor 70mm/35mm - cut differences if they didn't change things later for a video release, both options seems weird, why would 70mm material suddenly appear in a 35mm-final cut and why would they bother to alter these minor things for a video release in '93 or '86 and perhaps even earlier and which of the composites is the earliest one...?
Here is some "scanline-mania" for you guys...
'86 JSC LD - just horizontal scanlines, the same in the '92 US Pan & Scan LD
GOUT - a different screen pattern
'04 DVD - here you can see that same pattern better and you can also see that this is also a redone element in the SE as the screen show more picture information to the left and less to the right, I don't know if it was done in '97 or '04, didn't notice this until I pasted the pic. ;)
GOUT - identical in JSC/Pan & Scan LD
'04 DVD - there is horizontal scanlines, but very thin compared to the original hologram
'86 JSC LD - horizontal scanlines, the same in the '92 US Pan & Scan LD
GOUT - vertical scanlines
'04 DVD - vertical scanlines
'92 US Pan & Scan LD - the same in JSC but used this to better demonstrate them
GOUT - no trace of scanlines
'92 US Pan & Scan LD - the same in JSC
GOUT - there seems to be traces of scanlines in this angle of the hologram but they're very hard to see
Now I don't know what to believe...
doubleofive said:
Alright, here's where I need some help: RotJ is the one that had the most 2004 changes from 1997, so I need some comparisons/information.
The wipe from the frog outside Jabba's palace (the only one I can tell has been redone). Redone in 1997?
How did they fit Naboo into the end without messing up the music? How are the transitions different?
I need screen shots from the 1997 of the original buildings on Coruscant.
The ending with the ghosts has been butchered in more ways than just Hayden. Is the timing of the end shots any different in 1997? Where does the deviation start between 1997 and 2004?
I would really like to help but I don't own the '97SE of Jedi. Anyway, I think you could add to the Lucasfilm description of the green Falcon laser in pic 84 it was correctly colored red back in '83, that's another GOUT flaw. And damn what ugly some of those Endor shots look in the GOUT transfer, they all seem to have a sickly green tint.
In your comparisons you say that several shots were timed differently by a few frames, could it not just be due to the missing frames in the sources? We know the GOUT is missing a few frames in several spots and I'm sure the SE is also missing a few. I doubt the split-comparison DVD is 100% aligned, just a thought.
doubleofive said:
They creatures definitely move at different rates, so they were recomped, just probably not for the reasons they state.
Ah, I see.
zombie84 said:
It looks like that left part was a seperate comp added later to make the cockpit window not seem so wide, but re-comping it for the SE they didn't print it at full opacity for some reason, probably just sheer mistake.
Yeah, that sounds logical. It's funny that they recomped the shot to fix the opacity but in the process created a new transparent issue. :)
Is the source for GOUT - Empire and Jedi also an IP from 1985?
This Lucasfilm description is SE propaganda at its best, "The composite of the bogwing pterodactyl-like creatures has been improved to have a more natural blur."
that unnatural blur they talk about is just DVNR smear. Maybe they cleaned up the composites matte-lines it's very hard to see as the SE transfer is so damn dark sometimes but the first shot of them looks unchanged to me.
msycamore said:
Have you noticed that a small part (left in frame) of the AT-AT's cockpit in the SE is transparant in comparison pics: 57 & 65 but not in the original shot... weird.
So any idea what happened here?
doubleofive said:
That scanline thing is crazy. How does that one shot go from green text to red and lose the scanlines? The scanlines maybe I can understand, but how does only the color of the text change?
Yes, I have no idea what causing it but in Star Wars you have the green lights behind C-3PO in the oil bath go from green to red and blue and back again between shots, in Empire you have the TIE lasers go from green to yellow and even clear blue in the PAL transfer when they chase the Falcon and the same thing happens with the Falcon, Star Destroyer and TIE lasers in Jedi. The DVNR is not the only flaw of the GOUT...
I'm sure this is gonna be a great set and I agree that my earlier statement about Cameron was a little melodramatic but it still annoys me that filmmakers feel they have to do these alterations even if they are minor, are they embarrassed? or is it just because they can do it? If we don't care about these minor tweaks, what will then the next release change? I think this will become a very common practice, the worst thing is when these minor tweaks aren't known when people purchase the film they love, that's the reason, dark_jedi I mentioned it in this thread, not to bitch about it. I doubt these kind of digital tweaks are mentioned on the blu-ray cases of The Evil Dead or Aliens... I wish I didn't care about these things but I do...
The Japanese Special Collection LD from '86 also have the scanlines and green markings in that shield generator shot, when the only different appearence we know of is in the '93 transfer, it makes me believe it's just a video flaw.
Moth3r said:
I agree with Dr M - the simplest AviSynth method would be to down-res, then resize back up to the desired resolution, then use an effects filter to add noise/grain.
Ok, I want to try this out, could you guys give me an script example of this method please, (my Avisynth knowledge is really bad) thanks.
The hangar matte, the hole in the floor that reveals Lance Henricksen's body when he rescues Newt etc.
It seems like James Cameron have finally joined George Lucas and Sam Raimi in their revisionism. The coming blu-ray of Aliens have several digital tweaks done to it. Hope you like it...
Yeah, I'm leaning towards it but it's still possible the studio tried all sorts of things later down the road when the film didn't go well with the audience. Well, who knows... unfortunately I can't find any more reviews from that time, all reviews on the web are the CGI-version. :(
Gaffer Tape said:
So, just in case what should I be listening for? How can I tell if this has the wrong audio?
It's been many years since I last saw this film with the remixed audio, so I'm not sure but I think you can easily spot it in the opening credits, if I remember it correctly, the sound effects of the titles receding into space were slightly redone for the special edition.
THX 1138 had its wide american release March 11, 1971. I noticed this review, dated March 12, 1971, mention the Buck Rogers opening which I found interesting. According to IMDB the original release had instead a one minute clip from "Things to Come" (1936). So either IMDB is wrong about this or the critic may have seen an earlier screening of the film where the Buck Rogers clip was included, thoughts?
The review show up in one of the documentaries included in the 2004 DVD.
Holy shit! This is fantastic!! :) Thanks, SilverWook for the comparison notes. With such a different cut I'm willing to believe this is actually the real thing. How this cut could suddenly be aired on television in Italy is a mystery but we are damn lucky that erri_wan caught it, thank you!
Very interesting, some of that dialogue you translated is also in the script:
69. SCHOOL PLAZA
SEN is sitting with his head in his hands. Along one wall is a
school with windows facing the plaza. Children are playing
various games in the center of the plaza. One group forms a
human labyrinth and tow children play tag in it. Two children
are standing apart from the others, one is adjusting a strange
device of the other's arm. After a few moments one child
approached SEN.
CHILD
My inducer fell off.
SEN
(Looks up)
What...?
The child holds out his arm to SEN. A small blue plastic
pouch has detached from the underside of his arm. He points at
the other child standing in the background.
CHILD
3114 knocked it off.
SEN
(Confused)
Oh?....
CHILD
He didn't mean to.
SEN takes the pouch. Printed on it are the words "Advanced
primary economics 5867H" It is filled with a creamy fluid
which is dripping slowly out of the plastic tube.
CHILD
Look out!
He grabs the pouch from SEN and pinches the tube shut.
CHILD
(Angry)
What's the matter with you?
The other child has come over and is watching.
SEN
I'm sorry...let me see it again.
The child reluctantly gives him the pouch and SEN is careful to
keep it upright. Sticking out of the child's arm is a small
plastic receptor tube. SEN fits the pouch's tube into it. The
child looks at SEN.
CHILD
What are you doing here? Where's
your badge?
SEN
(Busy with the pouch)
I'm an escaped felon.
The two children look at each other wide-eyed. The second backs
off a little.
FIRST CHILD
You are not! Why aren't you
arrested?
SEN looks up and smiles and motions the other child closer
again.
SEN
I'm waiting to be picked up.
Here, hold this...
He hands the second child the first's pouch and tears a strip
of cloth from his shirt. He ties it around the arm holding
the pouch secure.
SEN
There!
The two children are fascinated, knowing whether to
believe SEN or not.
SECOND CHILD
What's your name?
SEN
SEN 5241
SECOND CHILD
I'm 3114 and he's 1112
SEN
Hello....(looking at the pouch)
How is that? Any good....
FIRST CHILD
(Shrugs) O K
SEN
When I was in school it was all
different. We had to lie in bed
all the time. ADVANCED PRIMARY
ECONOMICS was a bottle about
this big.... (he indicates a
football sized object) It took
a week.
CHILDREN
Wow!
...and this is how the same scene play out in the US original cut:
SEN: What is that? An inducer? Did it fall off?
Kid: Yeah.
SEN: How do you...?
Kid: Look out what're you trying...
SEN: Oh, sorry. Excuse me.
Hello. (to the other kid)
Let me see that again. I think I have it.
Here, give me your arm.
You know... when I was at school, it was all very different.
We used to stay in bed all the time. Combined primary economics...
Combined primary economics was a bottle about this big.
It took a week.
Kids: Wow!
I'm also ignored by him. :)
Sluggo said:
Geh. Thanks for looking into that. I've got the disc on my shelf waiting to be viewed. On top of that box I am meaning to mail to DarkJedi.
No problem, Puggo's preservation is a cool little gem to own anyway.
Sluggo said:
So the top pan and scan pictures are from the trailer and the lower widescreen pics from the GOUT?
Yes, that is correct.