moviefreakedmind

There was a thread there once where they were discussing whether or not Liam Neeson and Sam Jackson's ghosts should be added at the end of Jedi.

Harmy said:

No, it certainly wasn't - the monkeys looked so terribly fake, I had a hard time watching the otherwise pretty good movie.

And yeah, the GotG CGI characters were pretty good but they are kind of cartoony by their nature, so that helps a lot (alongside the great story of course).

 They didn't bother me at all. They look fake sure, but not anymore fake than people dressed as apes. To me, it's either fake looking apes played by humans and costumes, or fake looking computer apes. At least the apes in the new movies can move around like apes because of the CGI.

Handman said:

I remember someone mentioning that before; I think Harmy missed it. It is a bit jarring, isn't it?

I haven't been keeping up on this thread so I'm sorry to repeat this. I only just noticed it, but I figured I'd mention it just in case so it's on the list for the next version. It's great that SW and Empire are so far along now that the only noticeable problems are so minor.

Something I noticed in Empire: Right as Luke and R2 enter Cloud City (at about 1:37:28) the sky in the background darkens after a little less than a second. I don't have the GOUT DVD so I can't check, but was this something in the original version, or was it just something in the Despecialized version?

I think that an IP scan in 2K or 4K will be what we most likely get as of right now. A friend of mine who frequents Home Theatre Forum has said that is also the general consensus amongst the people there as well. I do think we're guaranteed some kind of OUT release though, both to hype the nostalgia surrounding a more OT based Sequel Trilogy, which will win back distraught fans just in time for the new movie, as well as to give people a very big incentive to double dip for more blu rays of the same movies (essentially what the '06 DVD was, except this version of the OUT won't suck). I'm just not convinced that they've gone back to the negative like the rumor says though because I think that the new 4K scan from RMW has the '04 lightsabers (or at least very similar ones) which obviously means it's not unaltered, but it's very possible that they simultaneously scanned and restored the 97 negative as well as the removed parts to create a 4K version of the current SE as well as the OUT. Either way I'll be satisfied enough for the time being.

Assuming the 4K project is only for the SE, I still think that for the inevitable OT re-release before Ep. VII, they'll include the OUT as an incentive to re-buy the trilogy, maybe with some Ep. VII teasers like that 2008 Indy Trilogy had for Crystal Skull. What if we get a 2K scan of a good condition IP, or multiple IP's if necessary as Harmy suggested, and they clean it up where necessary and color correct it appropriately in order to give it consistent colors throughout that match up with what the original colors looked like, also hopefully including both mono and 70mm stereo mixes (I'd love for New Hope to be branched, but I'm not holding my breath)? It's essentially a cheap alternative to the 4K restorations and a way for Disney to release the OUT respectably. Would this be acceptable? It's essentially what the GOUT should've been, and even if it is a disappointing release it'd make for an excellent source when creating the Despecialized Edition since entire shots would fit alongside the SE blu ray (which I'm assuming will be released in 4K soon) much better than GOUT.

Hey, I watched my unaltered "Faces" release of the tapes this weekend with a family member; they'd never seen the trilogy before, but they wanted to, so I figured I'd make sure they saw them right, and I don't have the Despecialized Editions on a disc so I had to break out the almighty VHS tapes. Anyway, something I noticed in Jedi that made me go back to the Despecialized Edition to compare was Sebastian Shaw's ghost at the end. He looks very transparent in the Despecialized Edition, while Obi-Wan and Yoda don't look too clear at all, and I didn't think Shaw looked that transparent on the tape either, but I guess it could've had something to do with my TV or something. Does this have something to do with the source Shaw came from in the Despecialized version, or was it somehow changed in the SE? It's also possible that my eyes are just completely screwing with me, but I figured I'd mention this just in case since every change counts when trying to get the DeEd's as close to the OUT as possible.

Short Round said:

Well, I also think that the rumor itself fits with what we know, but that's not saying much since we know very little. That being said, the fact that they mentioned delays and the negative being a bit complicated are good signs I suppose. Some people keep saying things like, "they didn't even mention Fox, there's no way it's true," but Fox hardly plays a part in this. I mean, Fox wouldn't be involved in any way with the restoration, they just have to distribute the films. As for the credibility of comicbook.com, I have no idea. I have noticed though, that most sites online aren't saying that the rumor is unbelievable because it came from comicbook.com, but then again most of those same sites are saying it'll never happen because Fox owns all the original movies (I'm looking at you Badass Digest), or that Lucas somehow has veto power over Disney's business decisions, so what do they know?

Well, comicbook.com has over 650,000 likes on Facebook, so I guess they aren't like some kind of fringe rumor site that know one cares about, but then again that doesn't necessarily mean anything, I mean look at the amount of people who read and believe tabloids. I've never heard of them, but I'm completely out of touch with those kind of things, but if they are that well known then it makes sense that they would have some kind of Disney sources. Makes sense I guess.

darklordoftech said:

I don't get:

1. How would a Sith be any less of a rehash than an Imperial? How is the ansence of the Sith "taking things in a new direction" if the absence of the Empire isn't? How is Star Wars about Jedi vs. Sith yet not about Rebels vs. Empire?

2. Why can't a Force-user call themselves an Imperial? You can have Imperials without the Empire.

 Also, does a force user who is not necessarily evil, but just morally not in line with the Jedi (like if Han Solo in ANH were a force user) have to automatically be a Sith Lord?

Short Round said:

The "Save Star Wars" man has high hopes for this rumor, he posted a video on his youtube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwjQDw2_8s

I noticed in that video he said that comicbook.com is a "pretty reliable site" or something along those lines. I've never heard of it, but i'm pretty out of the loop at this point so that's not saying much. Does anyone here know if they're a trustworthy enough site? I'm sure Save Star Wars wouldn't have said it was trustworthy if it wasn't, but at the same time he could just be really excited to possibly get the unaltered versions so maybe he's just letting his excitement get the best of him. Does anyone know of any examples where comicbook.com had some kind of trustworthy rumor? Their recent OUT rumor, as vague as it is, seems to line up pretty well with what little we know. It mentioned work on the negatives, some "problems" Disney is facing (could be with the negatives, or with Fox), but overall it didn't say anything that we know, or even think, to be incorrect so it doesn't seem like a completely unlikely scenario. The main problem I have with it is how shady they are about their "sources", but I suppose if their "sources" are actual Lucasfilm insiders then I'd bet they'd probably want to remain anonymous. They state all their information with such confidence that it's impossible that they simply have a misunderstanding, I think it's either based on credible insider information, or it's just completely made up, but I have no history with the site so I can't say which. 

Well, I do think it's safe to assume that the original negative pieces that were removed and replaced by Special Edition crap have been placed in storage somewhere. I do think that all of the original (not '97) negative were chemically restored before they did the Special Edition additions, so I think that all of the original negative would be at Disney's disposal, but I also think it's safe to assume that the cut parts are in rougher shape than the '97 negative so that could be the problems referred to in that recent comicbook.com rumor (assuming that it's an honest rumor that is). I'd imagine that Lucasfilm's warehouse is probably pretty well organized since Lucas held on to everything for those 20 years between the theatrical release of Star Wars and the Special Editions, and it hasn't even been that long since then so I'd be surprised if any has been lost, especially since the "Empire of Dreams" documentary crew supposedly had access to the Holiday Special tape, and I'm sure if Lucas wanted to destroy anything, it would've been that. I also am assuming that after that expensive restoration in the 90's the negatives were maintained better than they were back in the 80's, but that's just a guess.

Handman said:

MaximRecoil said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Well, other than the changes of course, the SE's looked pretty good for the time when they were released in '97 in my opinion.

 I don't think there is any such thing as "looking good for the time". People's ability to distinguish between what looks real and what looks fake hasn't ever changed as far as anyone knows, much less in the past 17 years.

 Well, people's standards change. Look at a PSOne game. It looks terrible by todays standards, but back in the day it was state-of-the-art! Same with Toy Story (although not so bad as the PSOne game)!

If we're talking about movies, "looking good for the time" relies on what people will accept in a movie without taking them out of it. A sort of "suspension of disbelief", if you will.

Without a doubt, special effects age. In 1997, the effects were state-of-the-art, and people could look at them without breaking their suspension of disbelief. Nowadays, that isn't the case.

 You're right, and some of the SE CGI looked ok at the time, but CGI Jabba looked horrendous from the beginning. I remember not even looking forward to that scene when I saw it in the trailer because it looked so cheap and poorly done.

MaximRecoil said:

moviefreakedmind said:

Well, other than the changes of course, the SE's looked pretty good for the time when they were released in '97 in my opinion.

 I don't think there is any such thing as "looking good for the time". People's ability to distinguish between what looks real and what looks fake hasn't ever changed as far as anyone knows, much less in the past 17 years.

 I didn't mean real or fake, I meant that the image looked pretty good. I thought the colors were consistent and looked the way they should've, and just the picture quality in general looked good. I could be wrong, I haven't even seen the '97 SE in almost fifteen years, but that's just what I remember.

Well, other than the changes of course, the SE's looked pretty good for the time when they were released in '97 in my opinion. I think it was Lucas who got so over the top with his changes that he decided to alter the colors so much for New Hope. As far as just general details go the current blu rays aren't too bad, but I was under the impression that Lucas altered the colors to intentionally make the films look really artificial to match the look of the prequels. 

I'm sure they'd think it's worth the investment because Star Wars is one of the best-selling home video movies of all time, and releasing the unaltered versions gives their customers another reason to re-buy the same movies in the same format, and also, from my understanding, it isn't a huge investment really. Remember, we aren't talking about a group of corporate Disney people thinking, "what should we release next?" Star Wars is still managed by Lucasfilm, which is now owned by Disney, and Lucasfilm's goal is to make as much money off of Star Wars as humanly possible, and I highly doubt Disney would tell them, "the OUT will make money, but not enough money so you aren't allowed to release them." I don't think Disney is going to be to interfering with Lucasfilm; they won't tolerate any foolishness sure, but I don't think they'd meddle too much with what they're doing as long as it makes them money.

Well, Walt Disney animation won't be overseeing the restoration. Lucasfilm is still a company, it's a subsidiary of Disney now, but still managed separately, but with Disney over them. Disney didn't just buy the movies, they bought Lucasfilm, so Lucasfilm would be the ones overseeing any hypothetical release of the OUT if I understand correctly. I wouldn't worry about the problems that plague Disney releases (I'm assuming you're mostly talking about the animated ones) are an issue with the Star Wars films. 

It's always great to hear someone talk about this who isn't completely obsessed with (and uninformed about) the distribution rights. He said it perfectly at the end when he mentioned how Lucasfilm has had to release the films through Fox for decades, it's nothing new. 

Handman said:

moviefreakedmind said:

...but I don't know if that makes sense, I'm just guessing at this point.

That's basically the entire thread in a nutshell.

 Sure, but I'm making completely baseless assumptions at this point :-)

Another thing I wanted to mention was the lightsabers in the RMW video. They don't look like the 04 versions to me and they don't look like the originals, but since the colors are different it's really hard for my eyes to compare the two images, but I think these lightsaber cores in the videos look a lot different from the blu ray. Also, as for the blue escape pod door, I think earlier in the thread somebody pointed out different damage etc. that was not on the Special Edition, so I don't think that it's an old image from the DVD project, but I suppose it could be. I'm not sure, it also depends on whether they gave both the OT and the SE the 4K treatment, so maybe they decided to put some of both in their demo reals, but I don't know if that makes sense, I'm just guessing at this point.

You guys are probably right. I honestly couldn't even tell there were matte lines on those pictures. If they're releasing the OUT, especially if they're releasing it alongside the SE, I'd be surprised if they tamper with the matte lines. I've never been bothered by them, so I never really understood why the shots were recomposited to begin with.

Well I'm no expert on the subject and I'm sure you know way more about this stuff than I do, so hopefully they'll realize that it's the wrong decision. I didn't realize that it was a more complicated process than I thought, so hopefully they'll know better than to re-composite anything, because I agree that that would no longer be the original effect. 

Regarding the matte lines, I think there are some battles that really aren't worth fighting, and assuming that they're actually mounting a restoration project on the OUT, it's probably fairly likely that they are going to do something about the matte lines. There comes a point when expectations become pretty unrealistic, and I personally won't let missing matte lines (as long as the compositing is unchanged) ruin the OUT for me. I absolutely believe that the film should be preserved in it's original form as well as preserved digitally in it's original form (matte lines and all), but minor digital enhancements to the home video releases such as removing matte lines are just something that we probably are going to have to put up with. I'm not saying that it's bad or too much to ask to want the movie with matte lines, but I just don't think we should get our hopes up too high because that generally leads to disappointment. Who knows though, I'd love to be proven wrong and see the Rancor with all his matte lines, but I just don't want to have any real expectations given how much we've been disappointed over the past couple decades. 

Harmy said:

If they only made the colors of the sabers consistent, while keeping the original look of the compositing, I wouldn't be too upset - but then, they were far more consistent in the original, then they are in either the DVD or BD versions.

And I would outright refuse to buy that crap, if the erased they matte-lines.

Did you buy Raiders of the Lost Ark on DVD? They removed some kind of connecting rod guiding the giant rock at the beginning from behind Harrison Ford on the DVD. I for one am not bothered by erasing matte-lines. I know that they're a part of the films and a product of the time they were made, but for me I personally draw the line at changing the effects all-together. If it's the same shot, just without matte-lines, I'm not going to boycott or anything, but remember that doesn't mean I want them to remove the matte-lines, I'm just not going to be angry if they do. Then again, I'd be pretty annoyed if they changed R2 to blue when he's in space so I guess it's a really slippery slope. I'm just willing to except any decent looking OUT release at this point. Honestly though, I'd be surprised if they risk doing any changes to a hypothetical OUT release, especially if the SE's are still available. 

I wouldn't be upset at all. That's easy to fix in a fan edit. I'm open to any release of the OUT at this point, even if it just gives us new sources for a fan edit.

Yes I definitely think that the 4k scans are happening, but there's a couple of things to worry about. 

1. Is the 4k treatment only being applied to the SE? I know the video has the blue escape pod door, but I honestly could see them just forgetting to turn it black again. If that's the case would they still include the OUT but in lesser quality?

2. Is this a scan of the OUT, but they for some reason thought that redoing the lightsabers was OK? I for one don't think the sabers in the video look exactly like 04, but they definitely dont look like the originals.

There's also the possibility that they are giving the 4k treatment to both the OUT and the SEs.