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Yoda tells Luke just before he dies that “last of the Jedi will you be”. Lying SOB!!!
If you know something to be fake, your brain generates any number of reasons that it looks fake, even if they aren’t true or not noticeable to the average viewer.
I thought some of the Tarkin stuff was seamless, despite knowing it to be CG. If motion capture got good enough to capture the micromovements of facial muscles, I would feel a lot better about an actor using a ‘digital likeness’ of another actor (provided the actor or their estate were in agreement). In this case, the actor wearing the digital likeness would be translating much of their performance to the screen, even more than an actor with layers of prosthetics on their face.
Even beyond transmitting their facial micromovements (which I think didn’t happen with Tarkin) there is theatre. From ancient times there’s been usage of masks. Mostly rigid masks all througout history, in order to resemble someone/something that wasn’t there.
Then came prosthetics, which were used to resemble someone or something that wasn’t there.
And now it might be CGI, but the intention remains the same. In the case of Star Wars, provided that Tarkin doesn’t exist per se, the likeness of his original protraying actor is aimed at. Should this movie have been about Winston Churchill, why wouldn’t they just reconstruct his face based in historical data? I believe it would be in no way different than having an actor go through 6 hours of makeup a day just to resemble him, it’s the same principle than 25 centuries ago.
I find supposed ethical issues with this technology to be nonesense.
Now, that being said, I will also say that I’ve come to terms with the technology, which really is groundbreaking for the industry. It doesn’t look CGI at all. But it does look like a prosthetic. And yet it certainly doesn’t completely look like Peter Cushing as we’ll see. But, again, that’s not a problem of the technology (which I found to be almost flawless on Leia), but rather of the fact that this Tarkin doesn’t act as Peter Cushing, probably not for technical reasons but for the very fact that the MoCap source material might just not be likely enough.
As you can see here, there are some facial structures that might look a little different (Right image is the movie’s, middle is mine. I tweaked the proportion to fit Cushing’s rounder face), particularly the eyes (sky blue vs dark green?) and their expression. Thing is Tarkin back in 77 was a very very bad gentleman. He had sophisticated manners, and there’s a certain tiredness in his eyes. He’s not just the evil, determined-eyed guy that stands tall and firm all around. Nor is he the kind of “I talk and stare into the void cause I’m so evil” guy as here:
http://imgur.com/jUSwNYz (which is the peakpoint that really got me out of character)
http://imgur.com/jUSwNYzOriginally, his expressions were not those of someone who speaks decidedly, but those of someone who looks at you in the eye and frightens you because he is listening in-depth to you, and analysing you.
Reviewing ANH as I write, there’s not a single moment when he doens’t convey at least less than two emotions at a time with his expressions. For instance, when he says “enough of this [Vader, release him]” he sounds commanding, but he looks a little worried as well, etc.
Thing is, there’s no naturality to his acting just because the replacing actor didn’t get the character, or he wasn’t well directed, or (perhaps) this new technology will require a fuck load more work on behalf of the actors to pull a seamless impersonation. What I do know, is that this Tarkin looked a little too monolythic, 4 bits, in his acting; but truth to be told, I honestly put it all in the way the character was written (today’s blockbusters are more and more having the cartoonish all-evil villains just like back in the sixties) and a held back and not so good performance of the replacing actor mainly due to the relatively new ground and lack of reference this technology has to endure until its consolidation.
Best acting with this CGI will naturally be that of an old actor playing his younger self. Or even perhaps to have a special branch of acting-studies to be dedicated to physical impersonations just like it happened with voice impersonators.
But it will consolidate, I put some two cents on it. Hope they bring Alec Guinness as well
Yeah its not such an ethical abomination is it? I too question whether mo cap is at the point where it can capture micro movements of the face. I would think so but perhaps it is more work and more money than it is worth. I dont know.
It seems that overacting is currently the only way to bring life to CG characters. Golum is an example of that. He is overacted and it is fitting for the character. Same goes for Andy Serkis’ portrayal of Caesar in the contemporary Ape films. In contrast, Snoke looks somewhat wooden. CG does not seem to capture subdued performances well.
If you know something to be fake, your brain generates any number of reasons that it looks fake, even if they aren’t true or not noticeable to the average viewer.
I thought some of the Tarkin stuff was seamless, despite knowing it to be CG. If motion capture got good enough to capture the micromovements of facial muscles, I would feel a lot better about an actor using a ‘digital likeness’ of another actor (provided the actor or their estate were in agreement). In this case, the actor wearing the digital likeness would be translating much of their performance to the screen, even more than an actor with layers of prosthetics on their face.
I think the most noticeable thing is that when he talks, the muscles around his mount and jaw move in the same exact way every time making him look somewhat mechanical.
I’m still very impressed by the technical achievement and it will get better and there will be chances to improve on those scenes in special editions.
Ahhhh but the ol’ gang wont be the same without her.
This may come off as rather provocative, but Return of the Jedi is a very mediocre film with a fantastic soundtrack that never really gets its chance to shine.
I’d say it’s average for a Star Wars film but still much more enjoyable than most Sci Fi or Fantasy or Action flicks I’ve seen. There are parts of the movie that really do shine and are obscured by the remainder of the movie which seems somewhat cobbled together.
I really enjoyed Rogue One. But I also really loved ROTJ after having first seen it as a kid. Back then it was my favorite of all the SW films. I came to see its flaws over the years. I feel the same way about R1. It has some of the best sequences in any SW film but over time it will take its rightful place among the remainder of the films and settle somewhere near ROTJ which is where I think most people on thie forum have been placing it.
I am so sad right now. It’s like a part of my childhood died.
When Jyn Erso’s mom gives her the Kyber Crystal necklace in the beginning of the film, I half expected it to come back as a functional implementation of the plot. I’m so glad they didnt use that schtick. If it were typical to Hollywood, she would have used it to restore the uplink to transmit the plans or take down the shield in some way; complete with a “I had the answer around my neck the entire time” moment.
In the end it was just a memento which is kind of nice.
Seems like giving a review means injecting a heavy dose of criticism and submitting their entry for the ultimate snob trophy. But does anybody wanna break down in detail what they liked about the movie instead of writing volumes of what was wrong?
For me, that last 1/3 of the film really just hits the spot. We’ve become a high brow intellectual pontificating fanbase but one aspect that we have learned to forget after years of jaded film going experiences is the action of Star Wars. The action of Star Wars was spectacular in its day. Rogue One’s action scenes take a backseat to no Star Wars Film including any of the originals. The action of Rogue One is a storyline in itself. Its not a standard laundry list of action scenes that need to be stuffed in. It is a mini plot.
Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.
Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.
That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.
Ok well…to each his own. I will say that of all things, that scene was the most pleasurable bit of fan service in the entire film. The fans got to see the Vader they imagined after having seen Ep4. Now it doesnt quite jibe with what we come to learn in subsequent films but it was fun to watch. I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well. In 2 films now under Disney there have been many examples of blatant fan servicing but this one worked better than most all others. Just my opinion.
I respect your opinion, and I find it funny that every reason you stated for liking it is the exact reasons I didn’t like it. You actually said it better than me. So I appreciate that, you helped me actually figure out what it specifically was I didn’t like about it. I also apologize for the use of the phrase “Vader-worship”, I think I saw it tossed around earlier in the thread and decided to use it, but it probably came across as a bit stand-offish.
All is well. We are all fans with our own opinions and head strong notions of what these films should be.
Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.
Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.
That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.
I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well.
Awww shucks. You caught my strategically and intentionally placed corny double entendre.
Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldn’t quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.
Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.
That’s pretty much what I was asking for, and since I didn’t really think the scene was that good to begin with, it doesn’t really bother me. I feel like it could be better executed to still make Vader menacing without looking like a video game and Vader-worship.
Ok well…to each his own. I will say that of all things, that scene was the most pleasurable bit of fan service in the entire film. The fans got to see the Vader they imagined after having seen Ep4. Now it doesnt quite jibe with what we come to learn in subsequent films but it was fun to watch. I enjoy being serviced. But only when it is done well. In 2 films now under Disney there have been many examples of blatant fan servicing but this one worked better than most all others. Just my opinion.
Fans too often attempt to make the individual films integrate perfectly with each other and identify what they consider bugs in the plot or with technicalities.
Sure…if Vader can just lift bodies in the air like in Rogue One, why didnt he simply lift Luke as he attempted to fall into Cloud City’s central chasm?
The answer is simple…because it would be silly from an artistic standpoint to see Luke take a dramatic stand; let himself fall and then suddenly is just caught and placed right back where he tried to fall from…or even worse maybe Vader could simply levitate him all the way back to his shuttle. But that too would ruin the drama.
Conversely in R1, Vader could simply not levitate the rebel in that corridor. But even more logically consistent would be if he was slow and plodding and actually got hit a few times given that he’s not quite what he once was. But that wouldnt quite make Vader as menacing as his reputation suggested he was.
Both solutions are far more logical and would allow the films to ‘sync up’ better. But would make each scene individually not as good.
I’m honestly hoping we can be done with Vader for a good long time now that we saw him in this. I liked the cameo fine, but there are thirty or forty other things I want to see before a Vader movie.
Agreed. Not really into Vader saturation. And I could do without a Kenobi film; much less a Kenobi Trilogy as some in the rumor mill have speculated.
It would be nice to have a movie about a galactic adventurer completely unrelated to the Saga and non-jedi. Everything we’ve got is in some way tied to the Skywalker thread. And no Chris Pratt please.
The Tarkin and Leia scenes are often described as off putting and jarring. But the thing is those scenes will only get better over time as technology improves and future ‘remastered editions’ will actually work to improve and enhance the film.
This will be an unexpected irony in a fandom that has voiced displeasure over 'tinkering.
I disagree. That line was totally out of character for Vader. Quippy Vader is not. Im quickly going though my head as I type this and I cannot recall one line from Vader in the OT where he quipped. He was always business. Help me jog my memory.
“Apology accepted, Captain Needa.”
“I find your lack of faith disturbing”
Dupe.
Oh God, I’m watching RLM now. I said the same thing about the opening scene when it happened during the movie. Why the hell does the Imperial land a mile away?
Because…cinema.
mapet318 said:
TESB
ANH
RO
TFA
RotJ
RotS
TPM
AotCSwitch TFA and RO and that is literally my order.
I’m glad to see this movie isn’t as divisive as TFA was. I mean when was the last time Star Wars fans agreed on something that didn’t involve a film sucking?
Yeah, it’s been pretty refreshing how even the loudest anti-TFA voices have been supportive of RO…except for one ridiculous troll, of course.
Part of it is that some of the loud voices aren’t even out. By nature, the spin-off isn’t garnering as much analysis, critical or otherwise. And I think the stakes are lower too with a spin-off, and the expectations aren’t sky high coming off so long a wait with TFA.
It may not be as great an event as TFA, but in no way is R1 flying under the radar. Nor has it been under marketed or underexposed to film going audiences. Here in 2016 there could be no greater film. If there are indeed people out there dying to bash R1 as they did TFA, this film has enough world wide exposure to have drawn them out.
I think R1 has broad appeal. Not everyone will like it better than TFA, though many do; however, there is a near conensus that it is good.
I’m not saying at all that RO is flying under the radar, that’s plainly untrue. I just mean the sheer fact of Episode VII meant people in general would be more critical and have more to say.
Understood. But R1 certainly has crossed whatever threshold of popularity that exists to draw the haters.
Character development =/= backstory.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think they needed to develop every single character. I just wish at least a few were more focused. It’s tricky when you have so many characters with so many different elements. The Krennic/Erso friend/foe dynamic hinted at but that never goes anywhere. The Saw Gerrera/terrorist aspect of the Rebellion of which is clearly there but otherwise completely unexplored. Jyn’s on-again, off-again rebellion and risking everything for the greater good (and how that relates to Galen) which is there but basically brushed over. The Cassian conflict which is very solid but doesn’t have any sort of meaningful resolution in regards to the moral dilemma of a violent Rebellion. Bodhi Rook and his connection to Galen/why he defected. Chirrut and Baze and anything about their religion/trust in the Force beyond what we can assume based on prior knowledge of the concept. These are all interesting things but far too unexplored. Some scenario in which many arcs are tied together with some thematic coherence would have been best route.
I do too think the film could have been longer. Team based war films often reach near 2 and a half hours and this had the leeway to do so as a standalone.
I think you have a great point. And I do not laugh my ass off at your post. 😃
All the characters were merely touched upon. However, the Rebellion has always been seen as a faceless and nameless collective of disposable people whose deaths were more or less meaningless. R1 finally gives some depth to the Rebellion even if its not enough as say Han Solo. It lends some sense of sacrifice and consequence to their deaths. The characters of this film will never stand along side the titans of the Galaxy but they were never meant to. R1 is a cross section view of the Rebellion.
Perhaps there could have been more but it stands on its own and as a supplement.
Every time I see someone complain about how safe TFA was, and then I think of all the shit Disney got for a female lead, a black co-lead, and a Hispanic co-co-lead, when I think of the film killing off Han, when I think of the way the film tore up the ending of Jedi and tore up Han and Leia’s relationship (both in good, realistic ways), the way that Luke didn’t appear until the last scene…I have to laugh my ass off at that person.
Those weren’t really risks were they? They are an attempt to be more inclusive as the times would dictate any film with a large cast should be.
It’s pretty much a retro fit of Star Wars with an infusion of diversity.
Yeah, I agree with that. It’s not a risk just because some idiots who are out of step with the times got mad about it.
As for killing off Han, I guess you could say it was a risk.
I really can’t imagine that was a surprise to many people. I thought it was a given that Han would bite it as soon as Harrison signed on.
Good point. It really wasnt a risk at all.
mapet318 said:
TESB
ANH
RO
TFA
RotJ
RotS
TPM
AotCSwitch TFA and RO and that is literally my order.
I’m glad to see this movie isn’t as divisive as TFA was. I mean when was the last time Star Wars fans agreed on something that didn’t involve a film sucking?
Yeah, it’s been pretty refreshing how even the loudest anti-TFA voices have been supportive of RO…except for one ridiculous troll, of course.
Part of it is that some of the loud voices aren’t even out. By nature, the spin-off isn’t garnering as much analysis, critical or otherwise. And I think the stakes are lower too with a spin-off, and the expectations aren’t sky high coming off so long a wait with TFA.
It may not be as great an event as TFA, but in no way is R1 flying under the radar. Nor has it been under marketed or underexposed to film going audiences. Here in 2016 there could be no greater film. If there are indeed people out there dying to bash R1 as they did TFA, this film has enough world wide exposure to have drawn them out.
I think R1 has broad appeal. Not everyone will like it better than TFA, though many do; however, there is a near conensus that it is good.
Every time I see someone complain about how safe TFA was, and then I think of all the shit Disney got for a female lead, a black co-lead, and a Hispanic co-co-lead, when I think of the film killing off Han, when I think of the way the film tore up the ending of Jedi and tore up Han and Leia’s relationship (both in good, realistic ways), the way that Luke didn’t appear until the last scene…I have to laugh my ass off at that person.
Those weren’t really risks were they? They are an attempt to be more inclusive as the times would dictate any film with a large cast should be.
It’s pretty much a retro fit of Star Wars with an infusion of diversity. Diversity + a new story line altogether…now that would be a risk.
As for killing off Han, I guess you could say it was a risk. Every risk has a downside and they got the downside of it due to execution. K2SOs death is much more meaningful.
I don’t get the argument that the characters didn’t get enough background, such as not knowing how Baze and Chrrut met. Who cares how they met? You never find out the backstory of Jules and Vincent in Pulp Fiction, and those characters are still terrific. Hell, you never find out the backstory for Han and Chewy, and those characters are loved by all.
Someone gets it.
If one wants character arc, they’ll have to reduce the cast or make a series of films with the same characters. But that wasnt the intent of this film. Nor is it an inherent pre-requisite for all cinema.
But from a certain point of view, one could say the REbellion as a whole has been nothing but a flat character in all the other Star Wars films combined. Rogue One did not develop any single character to any degree but they are still likable characters. They are still relatable. And the Rebellion now has some depth. Previously they were nothing more than Star Trek’s equivalent of the disposable crew member.
After viewing the film here are my initial thoughts:
It’s better than all three of the prequels (and I liked parts of those movies!).
It’s better then TFA. That was a film I think that was trying to do what this film succeeded in doing. TFA was a new star wars that was desperately trying to be like the OT but the writing and characters were just not there.
This film feels like a real Star Wars film and a return to the universe that we saw in the OT. The scenes on Jedha had that grungy used universe feeling that Lucas got from the European comic artists of the 70s and its been translated so well here. This is also the first Star Wars film since Empire to not have any childish or cute characters. As much as I love ROTJ, the ewoks were the beginning of a trend of pandering to kids that lasted only until a few years ago. This was a straight forward sci fi fantasy film and a really good one at that.
And then there’s the Vader’s castle sequence which is just so beautifully done. I think there’s definitely fan service parts to the film but they are very quick and definitely nothing as offensive as any of the Phantom Menace gags or tentacle monsters in a cargo hold that we put up with in previous films. It was a film that finally said “Someone who isn’t Lucas can make a great Star Wars film”. The filmmakers of TFA were so sure of themselves that they forgot to make a good movie. But everything with Rogue One was just spot on from the characters to the pacing to the amazing visuals. Great film.
I agree for the most part though I dont think I agree with the characterization you’ve given TFA as a film making effort.
I dont like TFA much. But I dont think it was so much a desperate attempt to be like the OT. In fact i find it to be a completely corporatized safe bet of an attempt to test the waters by lazily copying the OT. TFA seems to serve one purpose only. To give fans the candy they think they want. You want Han and Chewie? Its got Han and Chewie. You want Tie Fighters? Its got TIE Fighters. You want sad and aimless youth on a desert planet setting out on the adventure of a lifetime? It’s got that.
This was nothing more than a careful entry into the Galaxy with the goal of not wanting to disturb the fanbase. I feel it accomplished that. It was also an attempt to wipe the palate of the fanbase from the miserable PT (apologies to those here who like them). It was from a business perspective the right and safe first step.
And the fact they want to play it safe with a trilogy is also understandable given the financial commitment required. However, it is a shame. The spinoffs get to take risks while the great saga thread is left to languish in its own past glories. I dont think I like that. Perhaps that will change in the next trilogy but I wonder if the current trilogy’s mold isn’t already cast and set by TFA.
K2SO’s death scene > Han Solo death scene.
That shouldnt be but it is.
