Here are some screencap comparisons between the official fellowship of the ring extended edition blu-ray and my latest regraded release. Let me know what you think:
MrZz said:
kk650 said:
Spaced Ranger said:
Yep, PJ is certainly "coloring" his films. He's even pre-coloring make-up for processing compensation in The Hobbit movies (note the make-up applier's own skin for comparison):
The Red-brand digital cameras now are legitimately a part of it. "Red camera tends to eat color a little so we add more color", said a TH:AUJ production designer in an official blog video about 3D filming. But, if the picture is red-reduced for a general shift towards teal (requiring red make-up pre-emphasis for better flesh-tones after red reduction), then that indicates a deliberate teal-tint agenda going on here.
Good thing we're around to fix it!
Yes, i saw the official blog video that had that bit as well months before the release of the film in the cinema but I really discovered this for myself when I started regrading this film. It made removing the teal tint a real pain in the arse.
When i removed the teal and got the whites in the clouds looking just right to my eyes, the red makeup that the dwarves were wearing really stood out, especially balin's makeup.
In the end I had to compromise and make the overall colours slightly colder than I really wanted by reducing the reds so that all the dwarves wouldn't look like they were suffering from severe sunburn throughout the whole film.
Which program do you use for your re-grading? is it possible to draw/track masks for the faces like in Davinci Resolve? Maybe that would ease up the grading although of course being tedious work, but it doesn't limit your choice of environment recoloring...
You prabably know that. I'm just interested in your workflow with a BluRay as a source material.
Oh and your STAr WARS regrade thread is very interesting. Keep up the good work!
Regards
Zz
I use TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5. I do not believe it can do tracking masks. It's not the most professional program out there but then again i'm not a professional colour grader, i'm very much an amateur. It can do everything I need.
Thanks, will do! :)
Here are some screencap comparisons between the official fellowship of the ring extended edition blu-ray and my latest regraded release. Let me know what you think:
Nick66 said:
kk650 said:
A new fellowship of the ring regrade where i've taken a completely different approach to my previous release, very closely matching the image dynamics of the theatrical blu-ray and hdtv transport stream, will be coming out tomorrow. It has a lot more visible shadow detail than the previous release like the theatrical blu-ray and makes the daylight shots in Hobbiton brighter like they were on the theatrical blu-ray. Should be interesting to see what everybody thinks.
Oh, this is great to hear...I actually just posted my thoughts on your existing (25gb) attempt at tackling the FOTR green tint issue here.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with this time, and glad to read it should be closer to the theatrical. Will it be another 25gb version? (hopefully).
Thanks for doing these!
It is indeed a 25gb release. :)
I have finished the encode and it looks good. I'm very happy with the image dynamics ie. contrast, brightness, etc. I'm not so sure about the saturation though.
Certain scenes in the theatrical blu-ray are very colourful, some are very desaturated, its very difficult to know which way to go when regrading the extended edition transfer, more colourful overall or more desaturated overall. All my previous releases have leaned towards being more colourful, like this one does, because it generally appeals to me more. More desaturated might be the intention of the filmmakers though with this film, I don't know.
I'm going to create another encode with the same image dynamics but the saturation reduced, much like i'm doing with the Star Wars films where i'm creating both Classic and Technicolor versions. I'll put both up and everybody can go with what they prefer. It means I'm going to have to delay the Fellowship of the Ring and Star Wars releases though. Or do you prefer that I put up the Fellowship of the Ring version i've already done straight away, then get on to encoding the other desaturated version?
Marty.McFly said:
The term "Breaking the 4th wall" has lost it's meaning by now....
Repeated mindlessly over and over and over again. Like "hodor"
But hodor hasn't lost it's meaning, it never will, because Hodor is awesome, and whenever he opens his mouth, he makes much more sense than this whats his face kk344759 person.
Love the uncropped versions Ady, amazing as usual!
Hodor!
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
Abraham Lincoln
Harmy said:
But he never said your OPINION was invalid!!! He said the arguments you used to support that opinion were invalid and I agree.
Oh, and I certainly hope the original trilogy won't get a remaster like LOTR FOTR, because we've already had two releases of Star Wars with completely f*cked up colors ;-)
And I politely disagree, my breaking the fourth wall argument is valid and has been from the very beginning and nothing anybody has said has changed that as you yourself have admited.
You yourself in your second last post said that whether or not the ESB frame your posted breaks the fourth wall is definately something to argue about, so my argument saying that that frame in particular breaks the fourth wall has validity to you as well. So how is my argument invalid when that is all I was saying, that that ESB frame breaks the fourth wall and thats why it was cropped by GL? You just admited it was valid and worth arguing over. In terms of breaking the fourth wall, that is the only frame that I've ever talked about, I have never mentioned the Star Wars frame because I don't feel its an issue there due to the shadows covering most of the visible frame in the corner. The argument might be invalid for the other ESB frames but I was never arguing that it was valid for those anyway, only for the one you just posted.
So now that we've established that the breaking the fourth wall argument in relation to the uncropped ESB frame you posted is valid and built on solid ground, whether you agree or not, some do, some don't as you said, can you see how stating an argument that is clearly valid as invalid is essentially the same as calling that person's valid opinion invalid and is therefore an incredibly conceited and offensive thing to do? All debates would end up in fights and insults being hurled everywhere if everybody was calling everybody elses opinions invalid because they felt their arguments were invalid. If everybody is respectful, you get an interesting debate. If everybody calls everybody elses arguments invalid, you get a punchup. I know which I prefer, most of the time anyway haha
As for getting a remastered Star Wars Original Trilogy, colours can be fixed but detail can't be created out of nothing. I'd much prefer a 4K remastering of the three OT with all the lovely grain and detail intact but messed up colours to nothing at all like we have now.
adywan said:
kk650 said:
The edge of the window in the Star Wars frame is in shadow so it is not noticable and is therefore not an issue. The edge of the window in ESB is very much lit up, very noticable and therefore an issue.
So, most of the other cropped shots should not have been an issue when, in many, the frame is either lit as darkly as it was in ANH or is completely unseen? I probably should have explained that i was talking about ALL the cropped shots and not just the one image i posted when i said about the fourth wall argument and it being invalid. I wasn't actually trying to be an ass or anything like that. (click on the images to view them larger)
All the other uncropped frames you've posted have no problem in terms of breaking the fourth wall, at least not for me, only that frame Harmy posted just now. I thought i'd made that clear in my posts but it seems not. The other issue then becomes whether you think the cockpit should feel cramped like in Star Wars or are okay with the more spacious feeling you get from the uncropped wide angle shots from ESB. I prefer more cramped because I think it serves the visual narrative better and maintains continuety with the smaller Star Wars cockpit but I don't have strong feelings either way, unlike the uncropped frame Harmy posted which i'm very much against for the breaking the fourth wall reasons i've already stated.
You certainty did come across as an ass and very conceited when you stated that my opinion on that ESB frame breaking the fourth wall was 'invalid' but if thats a sort of apology then I accept and I will also retract what I said about your head being on the verge of exploding hehe
Let's all try to get along and help each other out when we can, provide different viewpoints, all the while respecting the viewpoints of others that don't agree with us. If we can do that, i'm sure that we'll all achieve great things working together on this forum. What has come out of this site already is pretty amazing and i'm sure that that will continue for a long time to come.
BTW, those uncropped frames you posted really do look lovely, whatever side of the cramped/spacious divide you stand. Comparing them to their respective cropped shots outside of the film, they do look much nicer than the cropped frames. Makes me wish the Star Wars Original Trilogy could get a 4K remaster like Fellowship of the Ring, that really would be a sight to behold i'm sure.
Harmy said:
kk650 said:
My point stands on its own, the edge of the window frame in the top left corner of the first uncropped screencap where all four characters are visible from the front is there for all to see, making the shot look like a set, breaking the fourth wall.
Its not something you can argue about, either its an issue for you or not. It is for me, as it was for GL.
OK, I was going to stay away from this argument but I just can't, because you apparently don't get it from words and need a visual aid - if the 4th wall is broken because you can see the edge of the window, then it was broken in Star Wars as well:
The edge of the window in the Star Wars frame is in shadow so it is not noticable and is therefore not an issue. The edge of the window in ESB is very much lit up, very noticable and therefore an issue. I've said this before in a previous post. Its either an issue for you or not, it is an issue for me and GL, which is why i'm happy with the cropping. There's nothing left to say. You do what you want with your releases, i'll do what I want with mine.
brash_stryker said:
kk650 said:
brash_stryker said:
kk650 said:
GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.
So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.
What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.
Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc. I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.
Now THAT is a strawman argument if I ever saw one. You have taken my stance on his many misguided choices and made out I think everything he does is automatically wrong. Just because I stated I disagree with SOME misguided choices. I think I made that perfectly clear, but you chose to bastardise what I said to support your own points. Classic straw man. Maybe you need to look up what a Straw man is, as despite accusing Ady earlier it's you doing it.
I liked a lot of SE changes. Why then, would I like Revisited if I didn't? My point was that for you to consider your argument won because GL "agrees" with you doesn't mean anything. Your point should stand on its own merit without bringing GL into it - which also makes you a hypocrite as you JUST said something similar to me!
And now you're not addressing people's previous points on why you're wrong and are just using the above manipulative tactics as a distraction. Poor form.
We're not going to agree here Brash, you give little value to GL and his choices, I do, a lot, he created Star Wars unlike you and me, so in my mind that gives his creative decision a lot of weight. My point stands on its own, the edge of the window frame in the top left corner of the first uncropped screencap where all four characters are visible from the front is there for all to see, making the shot look like a set, breaking the fourth wall.
Its not something you can argue about, either its an issue for you or not. It is for me, as it was for GL. The opinion of Adywan and yourself doesn't weigh even near as much as my own and that of GL combined, no offense. Let's agree to disagree and move on. I don't want to stink up this thread any further than it has been.
adywan said:
kk650 said:
brash_stryker said:
kk650 said:
GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.
So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.
What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.
Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc. I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.
Which, if you read one of my earlier posts, is EXACTLY what people are doing in here. If i was of the miondset that everything George is doing is wrong THEN WHY WOULD I BE KEEPING A LOT OF THE CHANGES HE MADE? If i was of the closed mindset that everything in the original was better, then why would i be even doing these edits? Wouldn't i just stick to doing a preservation of the theatrical versions and make NO changes to it?
Noted. I don't agree with you about the uncropped ESB frame that breaks the fourth wall for me but like me you have included some of his changes and I respect you for that. In that at least we agree.
Kapheen said:
I would say the guy doing all the work is entitled to the last say, and also the option of having the biggest ego if he so chooses to have or not. I would say that Adywan is fairly benevolent in this regard to listening to opinions expressed in the forum, and providing detailed reasoning for his decisions.
Everyone else is entitled to start their own edit with their own ideas if they so choose.
Which is exactly what i'm doing. However I don't agree that doing my own semi-specialised releases entitles me to have a big ego in my own thread and belittling the opinions of others with statements of supposed fact. He clearly believes it does. Interesting interpretation of benevolance though, not the word that comes to mind when I read the replies to my posts, arrogance more like.
We'll leave it at that and I wish him all the luck in the world with this release, when it finally does see the light of day. In the meantime, my own star wars releases await.
brash_stryker said:
kk650 said:
GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.
So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.
What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.
Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc. I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.
adywan said:
kk650 said:
I'm not referring to that frame but the very first one you put in the screencap comparison, where you see all the characters front on and the edge of the window is on the top left corner of the frame, as i'm sure you know. Setting up straw men by connecting my breaking the wall argument to the incorrect frame doesn't really help your argument all that much. You think that that the frame i'm actually refering to doesn't look like a set, I do, GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.
When you start using grand statements like 'the fourth wall argument is invalid' then you clearly believe your opinion is fact and irreputable for some reason. Only someone with a very large ego acts like that. And again in your reply you again prove my point when you say you are 'pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect.' when that is again simply your opinion with no facts to back it. You clearly have a very big ego to be making statements like that all the time. I'm surprised your head doesn't explode its gotten so large.
I'll leave you to make your grandiose statements of fact and rule your own little fiefdom in peace. I've got my own releases to get back to.
I know that wasn't the shot you were talking about. I posted that shot to show the exact frame you are seeing from a different angle because it seemed like you were thinking that the frame in the uncropped shot from the front viewing was actually one of the front circular cockpit windows and not the inside frame which made it look like you were seeing it from outside the cockpit instead of inside . like how it really is..
But my statement WAS indeed fact. I showed you that you see exactly the same sections of the cockpit inside the frame of the picture. It wasn't merely my opinion, but i backed the statement up with hard facts. I showed you a comparison between the ANH cockpit and the ESB cockpit and they were the same apart from the inner scale.
Funny how, when people disagree with someone, they can only come back with personal insults.Bingowings said:
Aren't people supposed to have huge chocolate egos this time of year?
Yeh, i have a Cadbury's Cream Ego ;)
No personal insults, your ego is fact as you're so fond of stating, it is there for all to see, the posts are yours and the tone of those replies and this reply speak for itself, the disdain you show for opinions you don't share, as if your opinion is somehow worth more than others. Disagree with me if you want but do so respecting the opinions of others. Is that so hard for you? It seems so. Try a little humility for a change, you might find it refreshing and good for the soul to boot.
Why you bring up a totally different frame to the one I say is breaking the fourth wall is beyond me. You have no argument against my breaking the fourth wall argument, you just keep changing subject/setting up straw men. If that's the best you can do then there's no point continuing this. Do what you want to do and good luck.
adywan said:
kk650 said:
brash_stryker said:
People only see a difference with crampedness when comparing cropped with uncropped. This notion that ESB has ALWAYS looked like the camera is shooting from outside the ship, baffles me. As far as I'm aware, you don't see anything in frame that indicates there ought to be the window "spokes" in frame too, therefore our view is certainly inside the glass (or transparisteel).
The only way that might not work for you is if you fixate on a bulky videocamera not fitting inside the window, and in that case, YOU'RE the one breaking the fourth wall by even thinking about equipment and film crew being present, rather than just getting caught up in the fantasy. In fiction, we are disembodied spectators.
The edge of the window frame on the top left corner of the uncropped ESB frame does draw attention to itself IMHO, it implies a window that the camera is shooting through, hence subconsiously reminding the viewer that its a set and they're watching a film. I don't get that feeling when looking at the cockpit frame from Star Wars.
Nobody ever tries to break their own fourth wall, not unless they're specifically focusing on the edges of frames and looking for mistakes the filmmakers made, but if you leave an uncropped shot like the one from ESB that looks like a set, subconciously people are picking up on that. Will it be enough to break the illusion? Probably not, but I believe it will lessen their appreciation of that film, even if they themselves don't realise it. Is that a worthwhile sacrifice to make for a little more information on the sides and slightly more detail? Everybody will have their own opinion on that but for me, maintaining the illusion is the most important thing of all, extra information on the sides be damned. GL seems to agree with me on that.
What? Are you thinking that the window frame we see on the edge of the frame is an outer frame from the front? That is the INSIDE frame we are seeing, not a frame from the outside. This is the frame section we are seeing in both shots and NOT one of the forward frames:
You seem to be seeing things that are not there. I've proved that the camera position and the framing is EXACTLY the same in both the uncropped ESB shot and the ANH shot, yet you still claim it looks like it is being filmed from outside the window in ESB, but not in ANH?kk650 said:
I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree to disagree about the curved frame of the window being more visible in the ANH shot, to my eyes it is clearly more visible on the uncropped ESB shot, hence why I believe the cropped framing is better. The breaking the fourth wall argument is in MY OPINION very much valid and you thinking that it is invalid is YOUR OPINION, not absolute fact like you seem to believe from your statement.
Your work on Star Wars Revisited was well done but you might want to reign in the ego a touch and show a little more respect for the opinions of others, your opinion is worth no more than anybody elses.
So, even though it proves that the framing is the same, my refusal to go with YOUR opinion means i have an ego and should show more respect? It seems to be more the other way around about the ego. YOU can't accept the fact that you are wrong about the frame. It IS your opinion that it breaks the fourth wall compared to ANH. But it is FACT that they are both exactly the same so the fourth wall cannot be being broken. If more of the windows were being shown in ESB, then i could possibly agree with you. But there is NO difference apart from the scale of the cockpit.
You are entitled to your opinion and all i was doing was pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect. That does NOT mean that i have an ego problem.kk650 said:
I see where a lot of you are coming from, seeing all that extra information on the sides and detail is very cool but in the context of maintaining the film's visual narrative and visual consistency between the size of the Star Wars cockpit and the Empire Strikes Back cockpit, I think GL did the right thing by cropping the ESB cockpit frames to make the cockpit feel cramped like it was in Star Wars.Well Han did modify the falcon between ANH & ESB ( Adding the extra landing gears etc) so it's feasible to think he would have made modifications to the cockpit to make it less cramped ;)
I'm not referring to that frame but the very first one you put in the screencap comparison, where you see all the characters front on and the edge of the window is on the top left corner of the frame, as i'm sure you know. Setting up straw men by connecting my breaking the wall argument to the incorrect frame doesn't really help your argument all that much. You think that that the frame i'm actually refering to doesn't look like a set, I do, GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.
When you start using grand statements like 'the fourth wall argument is invalid' then you clearly believe your opinion is fact and irreputable for some reason. Only someone with a very large ego acts like that. And again in your reply you again prove my point when you say you are 'pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect.' when that is again simply your opinion with no facts to back it. You clearly have a very big ego to be making statements like that all the time. I'm surprised your head doesn't explode its gotten so large.
I'll leave you to make your grandiose statements of fact and rule your own little fiefdom in peace. I've got my own releases to get back to.
DominicCobb said:
kk650 said:
doubleofive said:
I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.
*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*
Nevermind.Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.
On the contrary it seems like you are not willing to entertain the idea that restoring something to the original version might be better. I'm not the type of guy who thinks everything should be restored, hell, I think I've questioned before if this project is trying to be a preservation (can't remember for what reason, probably colors). But is it so hard to think that ady and me and others might just think that the ESB framing is better?
Also, this wasn't a mistake. Kersh, the DP, and the set crew knew exactly what they were doing when they extended the cockpit and framed the shot the way they did. "Ran out of time when they were shooting"? Are you kidding me? This shot would have been planned before shooting even began. If any film ran out of time it was ANH.
Take a look again at those two cockpit shots again, from ANH and ESB. What's been changed is the set (which is better, by the way, more detailed and undoubtedly more expensive), and the framing, ever so slightly. Maybe you can see more of the window, but you know that the window's curved, right? It's not just perpendicular? Don't you think they knew what they were doing when they framed the shot? Also, it looks to me like you can see more of the curve in the ANH shot. It's just better lit in ESB. Another thing that's changed is Han and Chewie are farther apart. This is obviously to give space where we can see Leia and 3PO more clearly.
Finally, and probably the most important point, the cropped shot is of lower quality. That should be the first, last, and only reason you need to accept restoring it back.
If this doesn't get through to you, then whatever, so be it. But accept that this is what ady is doing and move on with it.
When I said they ran out of time, I was suggesting that they may not have had time to carefully review the shots they had to see whether inconvenient things were appearing in the corners, as has happened in this case IMHO.
I am very much open to the idea that the original is better. If I was not open to that fact, would I have replaced Jedi Rocks with Lapti Nek or replaced Hayden Christensen with Sebastian Shaw in my Return of the Jedi Semi-Specialised Edition? I am not seeing that same openmindedness in the other direction from some people here though. I can't remember the last time I read a post here apart from myself giving credit to GL for one of the good changes he made to the Special Edition, the focus is always on what he did wrong.
As you say, the edge of the window in the top left corner is better lit in the uncropped ESB frame, making it much more noticable than in the Star Wars frame, where it is in shadow. That it is so noticable is the whole problem, which is why it needed to be cropped IMHO. They should have lit it so it was in shadow and wasn't visible like with Star Wars. Framing trumps detail every time for me, we'll have to agree to disagree there.
People will always get through to me because I listen and am willing to engage with other people and their ideas. All I ask is that others are willing to do the same and can accept that not everything GL changed/added to the Special Editions was bad. I'll leave it at that, I've expressed my opinion I don't want to derail this thread any further, this is Adywan's project so of course he has the final say. He should try to be a bit more respectful of the opinion of others though.
doubleofive said:
kk650 said:
doubleofive said:
I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.
*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*
Nevermind.
Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.I'm pretty sure this project is FOCUSED on such things. This particular item a late change from the 2nd iteration of the Special Edition that Adywan doesn't care for, and it is his prerogative to change it back.
It certainly is his perogative and I 100% respect that.
I see where a lot of you are coming from, seeing all that extra information on the sides and detail is very cool but in the context of maintaining the film's visual narrative and visual consistency between the size of the Star Wars cockpit and the Empire Strikes Back cockpit, I think GL did the right thing by cropping the ESB cockpit frames to make the cockpit feel cramped like it was in Star Wars.
brash_stryker said:
People only see a difference with crampedness when comparing cropped with uncropped. This notion that ESB has ALWAYS looked like the camera is shooting from outside the ship, baffles me. As far as I'm aware, you don't see anything in frame that indicates there ought to be the window "spokes" in frame too, therefore our view is certainly inside the glass (or transparisteel).
The only way that might not work for you is if you fixate on a bulky videocamera not fitting inside the window, and in that case, YOU'RE the one breaking the fourth wall by even thinking about equipment and film crew being present, rather than just getting caught up in the fantasy. In fiction, we are disembodied spectators.
The edge of the window frame on the top left corner of the uncropped ESB frame does draw attention to itself IMHO, it implies a window that the camera is shooting through, hence subconsiously reminding the viewer that its a set and they're watching a film. I don't get that feeling when looking at the cockpit frame from Star Wars.
Nobody ever tries to break their own fourth wall, not unless they're specifically focusing on the edges of frames and looking for mistakes the filmmakers made, but if you leave an uncropped shot like the one from ESB that looks like a set, subconsciously people are picking up on that. Will it be enough to break the illusion? Probably not, but I believe it will lessen their appreciation of that film, even if they themselves don't realise it. Is that a worthwhile sacrifice to make for a little more information on the sides and slightly more detail? Everybody will have their own opinion on that but for me, maintaining the illusion is the most important thing of all, extra information on the sides be damned. GL seems to agree with me on that.
doubleofive said:
I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.
*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*
Nevermind.
Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.
adywan said:
kk650 said:
adywan said:
Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.
Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film. When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.
There is a clear difference between those two shots, the shot from Empire Strikes Back is clearly wider than the one from Star Wars due to the larger cockpit, leading to far more lens distortion, especially in the corners of the uncropped ESB frame, more than is acceptable IMHO. The main problem though with the uncropped ESB frame is the curved window frame in the top left corner that is not there in the Star Wars frame, making it look like the camera is shooting through a window into a set from the outside rather than the Star Wars frame where the camera looks like its inside the cockpit with the characters.
No one had a problem with the framing when the film came out theatrically because they were too busy enjoying an amazing film to notice window frames in the corners of wide shots. The uncropped ESB shot clearly looks more like a set than the Star Wars one though, the cropped ESB one does not so it is an improvement in my book.
Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.
You can clearly see the curved frame of the window in the left & right corners in the ANH shot. It actually shows a little more of in in the ANH shot than it does in the ESB one. It shows that, even though the ESB cockpit is wider, the camera shows the exact same framing as it does in ANH. It shows BOTH the left and right curved frames of the windows in BOTH ANH & ESB. So the fourth wall argument is invalid. No re-framing was needed when you see the exact same amount of the cockpit in both films.
They also cropped the film from a 2k source. So there is a very noticeable drop in quality between the cropped shots and original shots.
I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree to disagree about the curved frame of the window being more visible in the ANH shot, to my eyes it is clearly more visible on the uncropped ESB shot, hence why I believe the cropped framing is better. The breaking the fourth wall argument is in MY OPINION very much valid and you thinking that it is invalid is YOUR OPINION, not absolute fact like you seem to believe from your statement.
Your work on Star Wars Revisited was well done but you might want to reign in the ego a touch and show a little more respect for the opinions of others, your opinion is worth no more than anybody elses.
adywan said:
Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.
Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film. When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.
There is a clear difference between those two shots, the shot from Empire Strikes Back is clearly wider than the one from Star Wars due to the larger cockpit, leading to far more lens distortion, especially in the corners of the uncropped ESB frame, more than is acceptable IMHO. The main problem though with the uncropped ESB frame is the curved window frame in the top left corner that is not there in the Star Wars frame, making it look like the camera is shooting through a window into a set from the outside rather than the Star Wars frame where the camera looks like its inside the cockpit with the characters.
No one had a problem with the framing when the film came out theatrically because they were too busy enjoying an amazing film to notice window frames in the corners of wide shots. The uncropped ESB shot clearly looks more like a set than the Star Wars one though, the cropped ESB one does not so it is an improvement in my book.
Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.
adywan said:
If the cropping had anything to do with making the camera look like it's not being shot through the window, then why the hell crop shots like this:
yet a few moments later he leaves this shot uncropped..
And why crop this shot at all?
The first cropped frame you've shown here definately makes the cockpit seem more cramped, the uncropped shot looks too spacious compared to how the cockpit looked in Star Wars, so the cropped shot is an improvement in my book while watching the film. I agree with you that the uncropped frame doesn't look like a set in this shot though, so its a closer call which framing is preferable.
As to why he changes to the uncropped shot later though, I have no idea to be honest, maybe he was forgetful or he had some reason, i'd have to watch that bit again to make any real assessment. Doesn't change the fact that the cropped shot looks more cramped and therefore better serves the story narrative IMHO.
The second cropped shot seems more intended to emphasise the ship outside by making it larger in the frame than to make the cockpit seem more cramped, whether than is necessary or indeed improves the shot is debatable. I would personally lean towards the cropped framing here if I had to make a choice but I don't think it makes much difference either way. The first cropped shot makes much more of a positive difference IMHO.
Congrats on your wedding Poita! I hope that your treatment goes well and you make a swift recovery. :)
My pleasure vbangle! It's always great to hear that people are enjoying my releases, it helps keep me motivated to release more, thank you for your support! :D
A new fellowship of the ring regrade where i've taken a completely different approach to my previous release, very closely matching the image dynamics of the theatrical blu-ray and hdtv transport stream, will be coming out tomorrow. It has a lot more visible shadow detail than the previous release like the theatrical blu-ray and makes the daylight shots in Hobbiton brighter like they were on the theatrical blu-ray. Should be interesting to see what everybody thinks.
The Classic version of the Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition should also be out by Sunday. I'll put up some screencaps either tomorrow or the day after. :)
Cantina Scene said:
adywan said:
Yes, i had a 1080p scan from a 35mm source. It was a pretty beat up print and badly faded, but did the trick in the end. I have been able to do all of the cropped shots. All i have heard about the cropping is that George preferred the tight framing done in ANH for the cockpits. How true that rumour is, is anyone's guess.
Yeah I read in The Secret History of Star Wars (I think) that Lucas was annoyed that they made the cockpit bigger for ESB ;something to do with preferring a cramped WWII vibe, I think; can't recall exactly.
Interesting, that's something that had never occured to me but GL is right IMHO. Based on Luke's initial reaction to seeing the millenium falcon in Star Wars, calling it a "piece of junk" the ship cockpit works better feelling cramped, not spacious like the uncropped shot makes it feel. This is of course seperate from the fact that the uncropped shot looks like the camera is shooting through a window into a set while the cropped shot looks like the camera is in there in the cockpit with the characters and not shooting from the outside into a set.
I don't want to offend anybody here but I think that some of you should try to be a bit more objective about the changes that GL made to the Star Wars Original Trilogy, yes he made a lot of bad calls by making Greedo shoot first, adding Jabba to the first film, adding Jedi Rocks and Christensen to ROTJ etc. but that doesn't mean that ALL the changes he made, like cropping this cockpit shot, are automatically bad, give him a bit of credit. Some of the changes he made, especially to effects shots, were improvements IMHO. Remember that Star Wars would not exist without GL, he deserves our respect for that alone, even if he went off the deep end later on with some of the Special Edition changes.
metalmunki said:
Sojourn said:
Awesome work as always, Ady! Does anyone know why they were cropped in the first place?
I suspect the reason they were cropped is because you can it looks obvious the camera is looking in from OUTSIDE the cockpit and it looks more like a set (because you aren't seeing any cockpit window/window frame.)
I agree with this. Looking at the screencaps individually when you're not actually watching the films, Adywan's shot looks better because there's more detail on display, you can more clearly see that a wide angle lens was used with the lens distortion you would expect and I generally dislike cropping in films on principle.
In the case of actually watching the film though, where not breaking the fourth wall is the most important thing of all, that uncropped shot looks blatantly like a set like metalmunki says. Its reminding the viewer that they're actually watching something make believe, which is the worst sin you can commit in a film, rather than looking through a window into a universe far far away.
When watching the film, the cropping of the blu-ray was clearly done on purpose by Lucasfilm to avoid breaking the fourth wall. It succeeds in doing this and is therefore superior IMHO and given the choice, I personally would not use the opened up frame for my semi-specialised release but the cropped frame instead.
It is cool to see that opened up frame in terms of giving insight into how the film was shot and all the extra information it reveals on the sides but I personally think it would fit better in a behind the scenes making of documentary of Empire Strikes Back than the film itself.
