imperialscum

Bingowings said:

The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).

Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.

The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.

I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.

Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.

And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.

Since you try so hard to establish how poor this rebels are, what would make you believe they have more expensive star fighters than manpower. Logically it would be the opposite of course.

Yea sure Biggs vouched for Luke. Two guys from a poor 3rd world country were driving tractors at their farm when they were young. One of them went to a developed country to become a fighter pilot. Some time later they meet and this guy vouches for his friend "you know we drove tractors when we were young". The squadron commander is indeed so impressed that he immediately puts the guy into the fighter plane cabin.

And btw I did not call you stupid. I said that a certain expectation is stupid. I suggest you read more carefully.

SilverWook said:

Biggs vouched for Luke's piloting skills. He's the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories you know! The scene was only partially restored to the SE, but it was addressed.

Rescuing the princess puts Luke in the good graces of the Rebellion as well.

I have no problem believing they might have been short a pilot or two. People do get sick at the worst possible times. Luke even said to Han they could use a good pilot like him.

IIRC, the radio adaptation added a scene where Luke trains in a simulator before the Death Star arrives?

Well this is still unrealistic and illogical. Don't get me wrong. I can easily go with that explanation since this is a fantasy film. I was just pointing out Bingo's double standards when it comes to ROTJ. He seems to be able to dismiss any unrealistic and illogical thing that occurs in ANH/ESB with laughably dumb explanations, but he seems to not able to go along with half as dumb explanations for stuff in ROTJ.

Bingowings said:

Back at Yavin they have more fighters than experienced pilots and Luke is experienced with similar craft and they have nothing to lose.

It makes human sense.

Don't be ridiculous please. Every military airbase has reserve pilots. And to expect poorly equipped rebels to have more equipment than manpower is flat stupid.

It makes no sense.

Bingowings said:

Similar things happened in both world wars.

In WW2 British took some already experienced pilots from other European air forces (they had a clear reference on their skill/capabilities). And even they went trough some training before they flown Spitfires. Luke came out of nowhere, with no background, no reliable reference what so ever. And to expect he could see anything close to X-wing system on a backwater planet of Tatooine is just... well I will just stop lol.

Bingowings said:

Once again not really.

Artoo maybe for opening the doors (though arguably any droid with the right attachments would do), Han and Chewie for their expertise (though they both prove to pretty useless what with the snapped twig and dead animal gags) but Leia??

The group spent some time putting on camouflage outfits and they brought along Threepio???

Yes that is all true. But they still at least had some role... unlike in ESB where their role was nothing for almost entire film and in the end their role turned into being a bait for Luke.

Ryan McAvoy said:

And in the original 1977 film where Luke (Who has never flown an X-Wing or starfighter before) is leading the trench run with two much more experienced pilots as his wing men is totally fine.

Luke leads the trench run because he is the hero that we are all rooting for. It makes no sense logically but it feels so right.

Exactly. Luke wouldn't even fly a fighter if it was according to logic. They just wouldn't let a farm boy they just met into an X-wing. I am sure they had more pilots than ships. So if there was an opening to fly one of the X-wings, some other trained rebel pilot would do it.

And stuff like this is all over the ANH, ESB and ROTJ, yet some people only see it in ROTJ.

Well a simple reason why they made it also MMO is so they could squeeze more money out of it.

luckydube56 said:

Yes.

:D

Bingowings said:

No it proves they have a vital role in ESB that is missing in ROTJ.

Framing the hero's quest, giving it context.

As I said myself, they were indeed vital to Luke's subplot in ESB. But they didn't have some proper role of their own. They were just plot dummies for Luke's subplot.

In ROTJ they weren't plot dummies for Luke's character. They themselves actually had some vital role/mission in the storyline.

I see what you mean. I didn't have the problems you mentioned because I really don't care about MMO side of the game (end game PVE, PVP, interaction with other players). All I care is the single-player content (i.e. class storylines) which is great and extremely extensive. In fact I tried hard not to interact with other players, because that kind of pulls you out of the story and Star Wars universe back into the real life. So basically when I finished one character's storyline I just moved to a new character.

So in this respect SWTOR great differs from WoW. I could never play WoW because it has little to no storyline content. I really don't see fun doing some PVE/PVP stuff with other players, which WoW is all about. I would say SWTOR is primary a single-player game with a some MMO aspects.

I watch them in order of release, official versions (once in a while - i.e. not very often). While there are some fundamental flaws (like Anakin being the series' most annoying and disgusting character), there are still some moments/aspects I enjoy.

Bingowings said:

imperialscum said:

CatBus said:

ROTJ had some good moments and I actually enjoy it, but Han and Leia were not the best parts.

Well we can easily say that Han and Liea were pretty much one of the main focus of ESB (if not the main).

No it's Luke.

Luke in the Wampa cave, Luke in the Bacta Tank, Luke in the Snowspeeder, Luke being trained, Luke fighting Vader and losing, Luke needing to be rescued by the friends he is meant to be saving.

Everything that happens to the others happens because of Luke or to propel Luke's story.

Vader chases the Falcon because he is convinced Luke is onboard.

Leia, Han etc are tortured because Vader knows Luke will feel it.

The scenes of Leia in distress are because of Luke (and Han rescuing Luke). We fear for Luke from the eyes of his friends.

The one film where Leia is more central is ANH where she is the captured royal ambassador who knows the location of the Rebel base and the station plans and has to be rescued by the farmboy and the pirate.

That is just a confirmation of what I said in the second paragraph. Han and Liea had (story-wise) no real role in ESB. At least in ROTJ they had some purpose/role in the alliance plans. So the argument that some people bring up (that is that Han and Leia had nothing to do in ROTJ, but they had in ESB) is just dumb.

What I wanted to say in my first paragraph was that Han and Leia character development had a considerable focus in ESB (but not story-wise focus). Probably as much as Luke's character development.

 
Those who plays/played it. What is your opinion of it?

I generally love it. Mainly because it is considerably story-focused and because it is probably the first Star Wars game where I can actually play an imperial/Sith (I always preferred Empire, to be honest).

I have played through all 8 classes and my favourite are Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor. Yes, as I said I don’t like Republic and Jedi. The only one I like on the republic side was smuggler.

I have some complaints though. I kind of dislike some of the planet designs. For example I hate Belsavis, and to some extent Alderaan, since they looks like something from Lord of the Rings. I also think Nar Shaddaa should have more darker tone (I resent developers turning it into “Las Vegas of Star Wars”) but now I got used to it. I also hate the whole Revan storyline. It is sort of ridiculous. They should just left the character alone and not ruin the mystery of his departure in KOTOR. Finally, I absolutely hate the whole “almighty” Emperor guy. I think they went far beyond the point of “good taste” with him.

On the other hand, I really like Tatooine design. It visually perfect. Maybe that’s where my obsession with clear blue sky and nice desert scenery come from (referring to Gilbert Taylor thread discussion). 😃

Official Site : Wikipedia Page : Wookieepedia Page : 2009 OT.com thread : GameFAQs Page : YouTube Playthrough

CatBus said:

ROTJ had some good moments and I actually enjoy it, but Han and Leia were not the best parts.

Well we can easily say that Han and Liea were pretty much one of the main focus of ESB (if not the main). Whether there is nothing for them in ROTJ is opinion dependant. But anyway, the point is that they certainly became secondary in terms of focus in ROTJ. Partially because Lucas depleted their (romance) potential in ESB and mainly because this film put focus on Luke, Vader and Emperor. That doesn't in any way undermine the film.

Still if you compare Han/Liea roles between ESB and ROTJ from storyline perspective, in ESB they basically had nothing to do. They were just running from the imperial navy for majority of the film, and in the end they served as a bait for Luke. Not a very prominent role (story-wise) I would say. While in ROTJ they at least had some decent role, story-wise of course.

R6D9 said:

Lets think about some real issues why did Vader want to stay on the dark side after Padmai died? and why did he not just kill Darth sidius after she died i mean  his only reason to join was her so what was his reason for stickin with it 

Well if you take ROTS as a reference, one gets stupid when turns to the dark side. It is not like Anakin screwed up and is trying to save his skin when he knew all too well he was tricked (hell even Sidious himself admitted to him that he is the Sith Lord they are looking for). Instead he becomes stupid and screams "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil".

DominicCobb said:

Yep, I get it. This one's a joke. 

I really get pissed off by such arrogance.

No buddy, it is not a joke. It is an opinion on the matter which is as valid as yours. Do you think your opinion is Newton's fourth law or something?

Bingowings said:

That is open to debate but the point I was making is that TPM is much more similar to ROTJ than some people are prepared to confess.

Well and my point was that similarity in concept/design does NOT equal similar quality. Many stuff is similar to (or imitated) Shakespeare's work but yet it does not compare in terms of greatness.

Bingowings said:

What lifts Jedi is the commitment of the lead actor more than anything else.

Well that is your opinion. For me Jedi has a great story, superbly written characters with equally great performances from the actors (Luke, Emperor, Vader, Jerjerrod etc.), the best SFX in OT (or if you look at space battle I could generalise this statement to entire film history), nice location shots, good editing and so on.

Just because there are similarities between the two it doesn't mean the similarities itself are bad...

Majority of the things you mentioned play out great in ROTJ.

Ryan McAvoy said:

ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss!

You said it. There is nothing to discuss. :)

Well to be honest, to me all 3 are equally great.

Well now that I did a bit of thinking, they could bring in Scorsese to make a mafia Star Wars film. Maybe a Casino-like, where Jabba sends some of his guys to Nar Shaddaa. :)

I would say they should just leave the OT characters alone.

Otherwise I am fine with anything.

DominicCobb said:

Yes, it could have been worse. But it also could have been MUCH better.

Whether it could be better is completely subjective. I have been reading this thread and people usually don't even provide specific clues to what would make it batter in their opinion. Of those who did, the things I could agree on is to put less screen time on Ewoks and more on space battle, and having Ford and Fisher make better performances. As for the rest of the film I just don't see any room for improvements.

DominicCobb said:

The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three.

There wasn't any wasted potential.

The main potential of this film (i.e. Luke's, Vader's and Emperor's subplots) was utilised to perfection. Jabba's subplot was great. Lando's subplot was good. Boba's death was good (Wild Bill style).

As for Han and Leia romance subplot, Lucas almost entirely depleted its potential in ESB and there was not much left for ROTJ. Considering this, they squeezed out the best they could. Ford and Fisher could act a little better but overall it is fine.

I don't really like Hitchcock's films at all. The only film of his I really like is Rear Window.

Layla

A perfect mix of Clapton's and Knopfler's style. Definitely my favourite version of the song.

Hoth-Nudist said:

2)  make final assault on Imperial city instead of DSII

I am afraid that would make it dumb, cheap and very "ordinary".