imperialscum

Tyrphanax said:

I still find it incredibly hard to justify making a (not great) MMO out of a single player game. If I was just in it for the SP, I'd be annoyed that I was having to pay extra money per month for features I didn't care about, and as a person who wanted a good MMO, I was annoyed that I paid for a single player game with derivative, crappy MMO elements.

Well the point I am making is that the initial price of the game is extremely low and in no way reflects the actual value of the single-player content. I think the amount of story content is worth, as I said, at least $200 (which is 4 times the initial game value). The rest is paid with the subscription. So in reality, as a SP-only person, you don't really pay anything extra. You just gradually pay what you didn't pay in the beginning (unless one is a really slow player).

But yes, generally you are right. I would probably still rather pay the higher initial price and then be able to play it whenever I wanted (even when they close the serves eventually).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BMgegut3UM

This is pretty old but every time I watch it, it makes me like Lucas again for a few minutes. :D

Bingowings said:

I think Yoda suspects Anakin might still be the wild card.

He should have been "The Other" instead of Leia after ROTJ turned out to be the last film ever.

Almost everyone other than Luke seems to have forgotten that Jedi.

I agree on that. I once suggested this on IMDb boards but people didn't like it. :)

Actually I went a bit further. Maybe the main plan of Obi-Wan and Yoda was to just use Luke to trigger the return of Anakin. I think it is a bit too much to hope for that Luke could defeat both Emperor and Vader, especially when they started to train him at the age of 18.

timdiggerm said:

imperialscum said:

 The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Isn't it the other way around?

I think his primary goal was Luke. Everything else seems to be secondary and subordinate to that. If his primary goal was to destroy Alliance he wouldn't order fleet to hold while its star-fighter complement was wasted on rebels.

I don't think Death Star is an equivalent for the senate or any kind of seat of power. The closest equivalent is British navy in the 19th and early 20th century. It was used to keep control of the subjugated land across the world. If someone resisted they would use the navy to spank them. King was still in London.

And certainly half finished DS2 wasn't safer than Coruscant. Emperor didn't come on unfinished DS2 to be safe. The only reason Emperor came to Endor was to get Luke (and possibly destroy Alliance in the process).

Since some fans say the imps shouldn't build DS2 because clearly the first one was proved weak. I mentioned 20th century navy. Post WW1 battleship building is a perfect example of man being capable of building extremely expensive and at the same time useless things over and over again.

Bingowings said:

Isolated forested moon CHECK

Planet Killing Space Station CHECK

Fighters wiggling through a metal Labyrinth to blow up a reactor CHECK.

Vader and Luke fighting in an industrial space with web shaped windows CHECK

Luke fights valiantly but is ultimately overwhelmed in the last minute CHECK.

Hand comes off CHECK

Someone goes down a bloody great hole in the floor CHECK.

Space station goes poof. ¡BANG!

Celebramos CHECK.

The Endor is presented in a completely different context. One of the difference is Rebels are the attacking force here. The other is that Yavin was never mentioned or implied to be remote (Dantooine was remote).

Of course there was a planet killing station. Should imps start to build refrigerators instead?

If there is a station... of course it is going to be blown up. It doesn't take genius to figure that one out.

Web shaped windows... give me a break. They seem to be common.

Hand comes off to reflect Luke taking revenge on Vader and signifies that if he will continue on his present course he will become just like him (replace him). You should stay away from stuff like this. I think it may be too deep and complex for you. :D

The two "holes" have no connection to each other. Completely unrelated. That is much like saying people wear cloths in both films...

Sorry I couldn't help myself. :D

I give up on you, Bingo. :)

Hmm what about ROTJ's final battle and ending. There are actually some fans who "want" realism and originality while at the same time would prefer to see a final rebel assault on imperial capital, ending with Emperor's destruction. That is one of the biggest contradictions I have ever heard. Poor rebels attacking the imperial capital and wining is the most unrealistic ending possible, as well as the most unoriginal and banal. Every other trilogy has a dumb ending like that (LOTR, Matrix etc).

ROTJ ending is original and unique. Taking place in some remote region (unlike the usual centre of bad guys' power) and the unique, simplistic and "crude" death of the main villain are just perfect. His most trusted agent picks him up and throws him into the shaft. Again, perfect.

Well the battle is still a bit unrealistic but that is as far as we can really go with it (considering it is a fantasy trilogy). The only more realistic thing would be Emperor dying of a heart attack and the empire collapsing as a result of in-fighting.

Ryan McAvoy said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

I think Bingo's statement is about right. Generally speaking people seem to hold ROTJ in a low/lower regard.

That's why I started this thread. As a ROTJ lover I wanted to know why. I know I like ROTJ "more than most" that's the point.

I love it too. I was just saying if you look at IMDb score, ROTJ is in top 100 all-time. So according to that a lot of people think it is not only good film, but a great film. I don't think you will find a better reference than IMDb to use it for "generally speaking".

Which makes Bingo's statement wrong.

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

Bingowings said:

Which took about the same amount of time it would have taken to walk passed him.

Passed him? Han was in front of him. He already went toward the ship while 3PO was locked out. He came back when 3PO was knocking on the doors. It may take him only 15 seconds, but that's a lot considering the situation.

Tyrphanax said:

Yeah, I'm sure it was commanded from on high at EA, but still... I feel like a lot of potential was lost in that.

Well this might sound selfish but I got what I wanted, an extensive single player game with great story content and a wonderful Star War experience. As for the MMO fans, well bad luck. :)

I don't think we would get this much of storyline content in a single game if they didn't make it MMO. They couldn't sell a single player game for $200 (which I think is at least what the storyline content is worth). But with MMO and subscription they could cover their investment.

Bingowings said:

Threepio is Luke's property and like Han is attached to the Falcon, Luke is attached to Threepio.

Han could have kept the door shut on the droid but for a small bit of added effort he salvaged the droid from certain doom.

That's not the same as deliberately bringing him on a mission in a forest where his skills wouldn't seem to be useful (though they do turn out to be) and where his physical appearance and personality would be an impediment to success.

The stormtroopers were inside Hoth base at that time. By going back to pick up the useless robot, Han directly risked his life. Plus he had completely no use in ESB (yes he did tell the hyperdrive was broken but that didn't really help in any way). At least by brining him on Ednor he didn't directly risk his life and 3PO turned out to be crucial to rebel success on Ednor.

If this wasn't a fantasy film, 3PO would be painted and wearing camouflage. But this is Star Wars we are talking about. You have to turn a blind eye sometimes otherwise the primary thing that should bother you is the unrealistic homogeneous gravity field on all ships.

Bingowings said:

Alderaan has no weapons, they may buy them on the black market and funnel them to the Alliance but they would have to be hand me downs or in rare cases (like the Tydirium) stolen imperial equipment.

Anyone capable of making fighters would be nationalised by the Empire.

It wasn't just Alderaan who was supporting the rebels. Clearly they had many supporters, judging from imperial officer's conversations (Tagge, Jir).

And it is not like rebels bought out a star fighter factory on stock market lol. They secretly hired engineers and build their own factory hidden somewhere safe.

Bingowings said:

If they are cutting edge why don't the Imperials fly them?

There is actually an explanation for that in EU. But you can stick to the film to get the explanation. Rebels had some powerful supporters (Leia for example) and the galaxy is big. I don't see why they couldn't develop something in the secret.

Let me throw you another bone since I think this one is worn out. :)

You know, I think Han loved C3PO. Besides picking him in ROTJ, the crucial evidence of that is in ESB. He actually for some very illogical reason bothered to pick him up on Hoth when he could have just left him there. He even came back and opened the door for him. :D

Bingowings said:

Yes but both know their way around the crop duster and the military trained chap is convinced Luke can handle the ancient star fighter.

You seem to assume they have a like with like supply of personnel.

It's a repressive regime recruiting people may be more difficult than obtaining old ships and much of those personnel would be trained as ground troops, technicians or for operating fleet ships (which may be less of the same skill set than flying a T-16).

You just assume X-wings are "ancient". I think they are cutting edge.

My assumption concerning personnel is based on the information that the film offers. It is made quite clear that Alliance is very popular. Even a farm boy on Tatooine has heard of it and is fond of it. So it is fair to assume they didn't have trouble with recruitment.

Bingowings said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

The fighters are clearly from the Republic era so it's possible they were salvaged in bulk.

Biggs proves they are trying to recruit pilots so it makes sense that they could end up with more ships than pilots.

As I said. This is invalid argument since the recruited pilots would train new pilots.

Eventually yes but that would take time unless they have already been trained on similar craft like Biggs and Luke.

Lol don't stick Luke in the same pot. Luke was "trained" on "crop duster" while Biggs was trained at military academy.

It would take time but they were hiding and had plenty. The trainees had the opportunity to train directly on X-wing (if they really had huge supplies of them as you suggest). So even a few days in X-wing is better than a childhood in a "crop duster". Yes?

Bingowings said:

The fighters are clearly from the Republic era so it's possible they were salvaged in bulk.

Biggs proves they are trying to recruit pilots so it makes sense that they could end up with more ships than pilots.

As I said. This is invalid argument since the recruited pilots would train new pilots (if you apply logic, that is).

ray_afraid said:

Woah.. Didn't realize this topic had already claimed two pages..

Haha. Well it is a pointless discussion anyway, I am not actually bothered about these things (i.e. Luke selected to fly X-wing etc.). I just enjoy seeing Bingo's double standards when it come to ROTJ and ANH/ESB. Strange fetish, I know. :)

ray_afraid said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

Your opinion seems to be putting every last wing in the air a moment of desperation is silly, indeed sillier than...

See what you just did there? You just assumed that they had more fighters than pilots. It is just your opinion (which is not very logical). And my opinion is that, logically, rebels had pilots in reserve. Picking Luke over them is the silly thing here. Much sillier than picking C3PO.

WHY would they send Luke instead of other trained pilots who would be left just standing around? THEY WOULDN'T! It's supposed to give the audience the idea that the desperate Rebels have so few resources that they will take anything/anyone they can get.

And that is exactly what is illogical and silly about this thing. It is either they had pilots and picked Luke over them or they didn't have pilots which is just as silly. Even if they had more ships than pilots initially, they would have trained them.

And please don't come up with some excuse like "they just got the X-wings that day and didn't have time to train pilots". It will just make the whole thing even sillier than it is.

Bingowings said:

Your opinion seems to be putting every last wing in the air a moment of desperation is silly, indeed sillier than...

See what you just did there? You just assumed that they had more fighters than pilots. It is just your opinion (which is not very logical). And my opinion is that, logically, rebels had pilots in reserve. Picking Luke over them is the silly thing here. Much sillier than picking C3PO.

Bingowings said:

The T-16 and the X-wing are comparable technologically as is a crop duster and a Spitfire.

Your opinion...

Bingowings said:

Nice to see you agree that giving Solo command of the ground assault was a bit silly though.

Less silly than giving Luke an X-wing.

Bingowings said:

I can see it making sense that Red Leader would let Luke fly when the planet they are defending is about to be blown up but not making sense to send a gold, loud, fussy butlerdroid into a bunker siege situation on a green planet.

 

C3PO being part of the mission comes down to one simple thing. There is only one simple "if" involved and that is if Solo decided so (he was strike team leader). Judging from some of his past decisions (foolish charge on Strormtroopers, not paying Jabba for 3 years, etc.), it is not too hard to believe he approved this one too.

On the other hand, Luke flying X-wing has tons of complicated "if"s: if rebels had a spare X-wing, if rebels really didn't have spare pilots to fly it (highly unlikely), if rebel command is willing to take some unknown farm boy, if Luke's "crop duster" management skill is anywhere near sufficient to handle an "F-16", and so on.

Bingowings said:

When the planet you are on is about to be vapourised does it matter?

Well it doesn't. I just don't think Luke would get to fly the sophisticated X-wing, if you apply logic and realism to the matter. Well maybe if you turn a blind eye and put several "if"s into the equation. But you seem to be so reluctant to do that when it comes to ROTJ.

SilverWook said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

The Rebels are an insurgent force (not an established planetary military force).

Even so it would be like Holland Vs the galaxy.

The planet they are on is about to be vapourised.

I think they would be sticking every man they could in those things especially people skilled at piloting similar craft that vouched for by a current squadron member and can get a character reference from one of the leaders of the whole operation.

Luke and Biggs both assert that Luke is skilled enough to pilot the ship well.

And if you are going to call me stupid do it in the off topic section.

Since you try so hard to establish how poor this rebels are, what would make you believe they have more expensive star fighters than manpower. Logically it would be the opposite of course.

Yea sure Biggs vouched for Luke. Two guys from a poor 3rd world country were driving tractors at their farm when they were young. One of them went to a developed country to become a fighter pilot. Some time later they meet and this guy vouches for his friend "you know we drove tractors when we were young". The squadron commander is indeed so impressed that he immediately puts the guy into the fighter plane cabin.

And btw I did not call you stupid.

Biggs and Luke both flew T-16 Skyhoppers on Tatooine. Luke fools around with a small model of it in the film, and you can see the full size one in the back of the garage where he cleans up the droids.

 

An equipment that can be owned by a poor backwater farmers is equivalent to tractor in modern world. So my comparison is still completely valid.