hairy_hen

All of my 5.1 versions were upmixed by Satanika.  When I say 'sort out' the 70mm for Star Wars I just mean that I'm going to test the version he sent me, since I'm finally back home and able to use my 5.1 system.  I had a look at the waveforms of the AC3 already, and the dynamic peaks are every bit as high as on the stereo version, so I just need to listen to it to make sure it's playing back properly.  Once I verify that it'll be good to go.

I believe you already have my previous 5.1 tracks included on your version 2 encodes, right?  The music edits I'm going to make for Empire are only minor differences overall--the majority of it will sound exactly the same.  Jedi as I said I'm not going to alter any further, and Star Wars should be superceded by the 70mm.

So . . . my audio recommendations would be as follows:

Star Wars: 35mm stereo, 70mm 5.1, 35mm mono (possibly 70mm stereo or 1993 stereo if desired).

Empire: 1993 stereo, music-edited 5.1 (forthcoming).

Jedi: 1993 stereo, music-edited 5.1 (already available).

Theatrical stereo mixes for Empire and Jedi would be nice, but I don't believe anyone has ever made GOUT-synched versions of those.

Of course, everyone's listening preferences are different, so those who are sufficiently motivated may well want to mux their own versions to use their preferred audio tracks, whatever those might be, which is their perogative.

'Fixing' some of the choppy music edits in Empire is on my list of things to do after I get the 70mm 5.1 sorted out (which hopefully can be wrapped up today).  This would involve substituting appropriate sections of the '97 SE into the 1993 mix; notably the transitions from Dagobah to the Imperial fleet after the cave scene and after Yoda raises the X-wing, and the longer version of Boba Fett's departure that ends with the scene change to Vader and Luke, rather than cutting off when Chewie begins firing at Slave I.  While I'm at it I would add the missing snowspeeder effect.

While these changes cannot be said with certainty to bring the '93 Empire closer to the 70mm mix, since no one truly knows whether they were present in that version or not, to me at least they would make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing by using more of the music as composed.  I have no plans to revisit the audio of Jedi; my previous version contained the deleted music from Obi-Wan's appearance on Dagobah, which was not on any official mix, but I think the scene benefits from its inclusion.

I would keep these music edits for Empire and Jedi confined to the 5.1 versions, since however good they sound they ultimately reflect my preferences and are not strictly authentic.  The straight '93 mixes of these should be sufficient for 2.0 playback.  I would recommend against using the 5.1 SE mixes as a majority source for the audio of the unaltered films, because they contain numerous 'flashy' surround effects that are far too loud compared to the rest of the sound--and the 70mm versions utilised a mono surround channel, not stereo surrounds as on the SE's, so the original design would be more accurately reflected by '93 upmixes.

Can anyone comment on the lightsabers during the Dagobah cave scene?  One of the problems I have with the '04 transfer is that the sabers are extremely dull and washed out during this part--compare with the GOUT and find piercing white cores and vibrant blade colours, as it should be.  The difference is striking, with the GOUT being the clear winner, with the '04 being pretty terrible.  Has any attempt been made to correct this?  Anyone have any screenshots of this scene?

I mean liba52dec downmixing.

That will do it, definitely.  It is very rare to find an AC3 decoder that can be made to disregard the DRC profile when downmixing to anything less than the left, right, center, left surround, right surround layout.  In fact, I would be surprised if such a thing existed at all outside of pro equipment.  I spent a lot of time scouring through avsforum to find similar reports, and the explanation (and Dolby's own documentation) points solidly to the notion of forced dynamic flattening on the downmix.  Ostensibly to avoid overloading the digital to analog converters, but I really can't see how that would happen if 24-bit DACs are used, unless the DAC counts its volume scale down from maximum and not up from the noise floor, so that even 16-bit dynamics could be pushed into clipping--but I don't know enough about that to comment in an informed way.  Even so, I don't think I've ever experienced any problems with clipping when downmixing high volume DTS tracks into stereo, so it really seems like Dolby should have allowed for this 'helpful feature' to be turned off.  Oh well.

As for Dialogue Normalisation, this is not defeatable under any circumstances, and is often a source of confusion about the dynamic range of a soundtrack.  It is much easier to tell when, say, a loud LFE bass sound or other high volume peak is reduced than it is hear that spoken dialogue and other relatively quiet sounds average at a lower level--the ear becomes accustomed to it, and the perception of 'loud' or 'soft' varies accordingly.  Witness numerous reports of the dynamic superiority of the 1993 laserdisc mixes compared to the GOUT: while it is true that the GOUT version of Empire is inexplicably flattened (Belbecus commented on this when he first made the PCM available, and I can confirm it), the other two films are not--the only difference is a 4 db gain reduction most likely attributable to Dialnorm.  Adjust the playback volume to compensate, and I'll wager it would be much more difficult to tell the difference between the level-matched AC3 audio vs. uncompressed.

These factors are part of why I haven't wanted to make the 5.1 version generally available yet, because I haven't been able to test it and see exactly why the volume is reduced.  Satanika assures me that no DRC or Dialnorm was used in the AC3 encoding, so I'll have to see what I can find out.

What were the main changes you re-created with this mix?

I've given a fairly thorough accounting of the work involved throughout this thread, but in short, the main source was the 1993 laserdisc mix, from the GOUT-synched PCM provided by Belbecus, which is essentially a 2-channel downmix of the 70mm soundtrack with additional sound effects added in.  I removed these extraneous sounds (some of which are harmless while others prove distractingly unnecessary) using the 35mm stereo mix, also provided by Belbecus.  Since the 70mm featured surround sound, and undoubtedly contained more bass than the 1993 version could accomodate, I put together a custom LFE track for the 5.1 version, the majority of which was sourced from the 1997 special edition, with some portions also derived from the 2004 dvd if I felt they worked better, and on rare occasions even isolated and amplified from the 1993 mix itself, for places where neither special edition proved satisfactory.  The volume levels of these added bass effects were individually adjusted to provide an ideal blend with the older soundtrack, and to create as enjoyable an auditory experience as possible.  Satanika took care of the upmixing from stereo to surround, since I can't get that to work on my computer.

See here for the list of changes made to the 1993 mix: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/70mm-mix-to-93-mix-comparison/topic/6501/

Oh, I had that same reaction, ABC: Empire scared me when I first saw it.  I kept expecting it to be like the first Star Wars, but instead it was dark and grim and the good guys lost (and Leia fell in love with the wrong man, funny how my 8 year old mind worked, haha).  It was only later that I came to appreciate how good a film it actually was.  I still like the first one the most, but Empire may well be the best, artistically speaking.

Molly said:

For me, *all* 5.1 sounds more faint than 2.0.

I really have no idea what this means . . .

Do you have a 5.1 setup, or are you listening to them downmixed to stereo?  If so, Dolby Digital decoders when downmixing automatically engage non-defeatable dynamic range compression in accordance with the DRC profile specified in the AC3 bitstream, the end result of which is a hideous reduction in the power of the soundtrack.  This is all well and good if you are listening on crappy tv speakers that can't handle high peak volumes (which Dolby seems to assume, rightly or wrongly, to apply to nearly all listeners), but is completely unnecessary if you have a capable stereo setup.  The fact that this DRC could not be turned off was the bane of my movie-watching existence for two years, until I was able to add a center and rear speakers to my system.  Anything less than all five speakers will result in DRC (the presence or lack of a subwoofer makes no difference).  When I was finally able to demonstrate to my lady friend what I'd been griping about all that time, she was quite startled to say the least--the difference is not subtle.

So if this is what you're refering to, then unfortunately the only solution is to get full 5.1, or to choose stereo or DTS tracks when available, since they do not have this issue.  If you meant something else . . . well, then I can't help you. ;)

I don't know why d_j is having problems getting a successful AC3 encode from the uploaded stereo track--is anyone else having similar issues?  Maybe it's some kind of Mac/PC incompatibility?  I can do my own AC3 2.0 track and upload that if need be.

I agree that 448 AC3 for the 5.1 would be best for most folks.  Some part of me wants to have DTS and higher bitrates, though my speakers may not be hifi enough to actually resolve such that kind of subtle difference; and I'm not sure how much benefit there really is, since there is occasionally a certain harshness to the sound, most likely because of the age of the material.  But in theory preserving as much fidelity as possible is always a good thing for those who can take advantage of it.

I really couldn't give less of a crappe about the films coming out on Bluray unless the original versions are included and restored.  And even if they did, it's not at all certain they would master the audio from the 70mm mix--no matter how good the picture was, I might well want to mux it with my own soundtrack, unless by some chance they actually did come through and do it properly, and how much chance is there of that, really?  I certainly am not remotely interested in having the rubbishy 2004 audio mix in glorious Dolby TrueHD . . .

ABC, are the last links you sent me an additional improvement over the one before that, or was there another encoding glitch that needed correcting?  I'm afraid I'm a bit confused.  The ones I've got are already incredible, but hey, any upgrade is welcome in my book.  ;)

Is the volume coming out the same as the stereo version when you play it in 5.1, dark_jedi?

Question for you ABC, or anyone else who is interested: how do you feel about the music that was deleted from the film?  I am generally against that sort of thing--witness Alien as a soundtrack that was atrociously mangled in its film release--but I am in two minds about what was done in Empire.  It's not chopped up nearly as much as that, and clearly it works well, but listening to the music on its own you realise there is a fair amount that was cut out, and I can never decide whether I think what they did improved the film or if it would have been better to use it as written.  Obviously this varies on a scene by scene basis.  What do you think?

Thanks, I think that made my day to hear how much you've enjoyed listening to this soundtrack.  You're right that the addition of LFE helps to mask the reduction in dynamics during some of the 35mm replacement sections.  I'm glad to hear that the sound editing is not distracting; the ultimate goal of this project is to create as seamless and enjoyable a movie experience as possible, not just to be 'hey look how much better it is now!' which seemed to be a major part of the thought behind the SE's whether they realised it or not.  I've really appreciated your encouragement as I've worked on this, and I'm glad the results are everything you hoped for.  Sorry to hear about your receiver--but then, maybe it's an opportunity to get an even better one!  ;)

Obviously this couldn't have been done without the prior work of Belbecus, for giving us the GOUT-synched laserdisc PCM tracks, and making the 70mm recording/1993 mix comparison (thanks Moth3r for uploading that).  Darth Editous provided the 1997 5.1 mix, which resulted in a considerable improvement in the LFE channel over simply using the 2004 version as I had previously done.  And of course Satanika for doing the upmixing, and sharing various mixes that I had not been able to obtain before.

I've got the upmix on my hard drive, but for some reason its playback volume is lower than the source files, so once I get back home to my 5.1 setup I'll give it a more detailed listen and try to figure out why that is.

I really wish I hadn't been as busy as I have the past few days, but I was able to start listening to this and I have to say the sound quality ABC has managed to achieve is very impressive.  There's a clarity and richness to it that is hard to describe but feels "right".  I wasn't going to post about it here since he hasn't wanted to release it generally but I figured I'd chime in since others already have.  A more detailed listen is among my top priorities as soon as I can--what I have heard so far has been wonderful.  I always used to assume that defects I heard in the scores were just flaws of whatever sound system I was listening on, but after hearing ABC's work I realised that my speakers were fine, and just how rubbishy some of the official versions actually are . . .

So . . . essentially this is like the 'Classic Edition', except of much higher quality?

Awesome!

Question: is this synched to the GOUT?  It would be cool for the user to be able to add/substitute GOUT-synched audio for personal use, but I suppose that's a minor point in the scheme of things.

Cool, I'm glad to see there is demand for the 70mm version.  Satanika just sent me the 5.1 AC3 a couple days ago, but I can't test it completely yet because I'm visiting my family and they don't have a 5.1 setup here.  My preliminary listen in 2-channel on headphones showed that the volume level was somewhat lower than the source files, but I'm not sure why since there is no dialnorm or DRC in the encode.  Perhaps it is just my computer being funky with the playback, and bitstreaming it out will yield the proper sound.  I should be back home and able to test it out early next week--I'm hesitant to make it generally available until I'm sure nothing is wrong, but it's definitely worth waiting a bit for, because the full sound complete with LFE channel is entirely awesome.

It would be kinda neat if this version included the 35mm stereo, mono, and 70mm 5.1 soundtracks all together, so the complete theatrical auditory experience would be available on one disc.  ;)

For Empire and Jedi, 70mm recreations aren't strictly possible, but the '93 and 5.1 soundtracks on the previous versions already sound great.  I've been considering doing small revisions on Empire, to substitute the hacked up music cues with how they are in the SE and add the missing snowspeeder sound, but those are only minor changes.  Jedi I believe I am quite satisfied with as it is.

How much of an improvement are G-Force's new scripts compared to the earlier ones?  I'd been planning on doing encodes myself, but my computer takes about a week to do each one, which is kind of inconvenient.

lol!

I hope you'll like it, it is definitely the one I prefer hearing by far.  It's not entirely perfect, of course, because sometimes the replacement 35mm sections may stand out a bit due to the difference in imaging from the '93 mix, at least if you're listening really closely, but I did as much as I could with them.  Some of them I wouldn't even know had been replaced if I hadn't actually done them myself and heard it so many times.

Jus in case anyone wants to upmix it to 5.1 themselves using their own method, here is the LFE channel to go along with it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/z84i3d

Tomorrow I am flying across the country to see my sister's graduation, so I might be offline for a little while.  But please feel free to post your impressions, and what sort of sound system you're playing it with--I would love to hear from anyone who obtains this mix.

It occurs to me that, given Lucasfilm's reticence to give a proper version of the OT, and the distinct possibility that they wouldn't release the 70mm mix even if they did, this could actually be rather important from the historical/preservation aspect, aside from just having the best-sounding version available.  I don't say that to flatter myself, but because their refusal to do right by these important films is very disturbing.

I am pleased to announce that the stereo version is now available!  For smaller file size and therefore faster upload/download speed, I converted the track into a FLAC using maximum compression, and then split it into a six-part RAR.

My AC3 encoder needs wav files to work from, so keep that in mind if you want to go that route.  A high-bitrate AC3 will offer much of the sound quality of PCM while allowing more disc space and bandwidth for the video, though you are welcome to use the uncompressed audio directly if you wish.  For best results, avoid using any dynamic range compression settings and do not adjust the dialnorm (it should be left at -31).

Part one: http://www.sendspace.com/file/efonsr

Part two: http://www.sendspace.com/file/c62qjm

Part three: http://www.sendspace.com/file/iqwit0

Part four: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rk7p55

Part five: http://www.sendspace.com/file/iypdet

Part six: http://www.sendspace.com/file/q5g9be

While the stereo version sounds excellent, if you have the proper setup you should definitely be on the lookout for the 5.1 version, in order to take advantage of the extra bass content--an important part of the 70mm experience.  It should hopefully be available soon.

And . . . that's all, folks!

I am now absolutely, 100% finished.  Everything in the mix sounds as good as I can make it, exactly as it should or as close to that as it can with the tools and level of skill available to me.  It's such a relief to be done!

The proper files should be uploaded shortly.

Yeah, I especially like the Skywalker recordings of Yoda's Theme and Luke and Leia, they have a very nice sound to them; although I wish they hadn't slowed Luke and Leia down so much at the climax--the original has more energy by keeping a quicker tempo.  The bombastic parts of the music aren't quite at the level of the London Symphony's performances (though still good), but the quiet parts are excellent.

Shame they didn't record the concert arrangement of Han Solo and the Princess.  That theme (leitmotif if you like) is probably my favourite.  The judicious use of flatted 2nd and 6th scale degrees is very evocative, giving the theme such unexpected beauty; a minor, melancholic edge to an otherwise major key piece.  Fits the tone of the film perfectly . . .

I have the Skywalker Symphony cd as well.  The differences in the arrangements and performances are interesting when compared to the original recordings from the film sessions.  That and the SE are the only official releases I own (somehow owning the music separately from the film didn't occur to me for a while when I was younger).  My aunt has the Anthology set, which I heard at her house a few years ago.  ABC's versions are the ones I listen to the most by far now.  Particularly for Jedi, I expect a lot of improvement comes simply from using the superior Anthology as a source; but that's not to downplay the importance of his EQ changes, which work wonders in giving a better sound.

You're right--I just listened to that scene on the '97 SE and there is definitely distortion going on, especially just after Vader says, "I find your lack of faith disturbing".  Yuck!  It sounds like garbled low frequency static or something, I don't know, but it's nasty.  Reminds me of turning up the volume way too loud on crappy tv speakers, except it's just in that one sound effect.  Bizarre . . .

It's also definitely a main channel thing, because I heard it listening on headphones, and the LFE track is discarded without a subwoofer being present.

So the good news is that my version will definitely not sound like that, because its main channels are primarily from the '93 mix, which does not exhibit anything resembling this distortion, and I don't think the LFE portion has that problem.

If you like the '85 mix, you're in luck, because the overall sound of this should be very familiar, with improved dynamic range and bass extension, and just a few minor differences in sound effects.  I grew up with the '85 mix on vhs, and I have no trouble accepting this version as completely authentic.

Now that you mention that I do recall it having been pointed on the forum in the past--guess it must have been you.  ;)  Although I have to admit I'm a bit bewildered by it because I have yet to hear any kind of distortion during that scene, although perhaps I simply haven't known what to listen for.  The LFE is at a rather low level on the '97 5.1 that I have; if there is distortion in the bass it must be a defect of the recording, though whether it is a degraded source flaw or they messed up in the remix I don't know.

Maybe the distortion actually occurs in the main channels?  I'll have to listen to it again more closely, but it is worth noting that the force choke sound effects in the mains have little resemblance to the "wind-like" sound that all the original mixes featured.  Hmm . . .

I think Moth3r is right--the relative level of detail and the colour balance is strongly reminding me of the GOUT, albeit tweaked a bit.  Every laserdisc capture I've ever seen (except for possibly the blackmagic'd X0) has looked substantially softer than the GOUT, and that this should be so much closer is indicative of its true origin.  And Darth Editous raises a good point that rendering this out frame by frame in Photoshop would be an insanely roundabout way of going about the image processing.

The picture quality achieved here, however it was really accomplished and by whom, is clearly rather good, but let's not make it out to be more than it is.  I think similar results could be achieved through further AviSynth scripting, and with the addition of anti-aliasing it could potentially be superior still.

I cranked it up this afternoon and played my current 2.1 file upmixed with Neo:6 by the receiver.  My lady friend gave it a listen with me--I'm so fortunate that she is understanding/tolerant of my audio habit!--and she pointed out that the bass was still a little bit too loud in a couple places.  The one I've been the most worried about being potentially excessive is the Star Destroyer going overhead in the beginning, because I made huge increase to the LFE volume compared to what is on the SE (+12 db, 4 to compensate for the difference in average volume between the '93 and '97 mixes, and the other 8 because it was just inexplicably subdued).  But she said that part sounded perfect as I currently have it; the problems tended to be with Millennium Falcon flybys.  Many of them were spot-on, but she was right that I had occasionally still overestimated how much bass was actually needed.  So there's still a little more tweaking left to be done.  I don't know why the SE versions have the Star Destroyer's signature 40 hz rumble at such a reduced volume compared even to the quieter shots of the Falcon; the sense of proportion is all out of whack.

This sort of thing can be pretty subjective, of course, and it depends a lot on room acoustics and subwoofer and listening position placement.  But rest assured that this is about 99% finished.  I will be making my files available on sendspace, since I have trouble with newsgroups, but they may find their way there also.

Right now we're getting ready to see Iron Man--there's a double feature of the first film at 9pm and the new one at midnight, so we are very excited for that. :)

I think I'm finally finished!  Preliminary listening indicates that the latest edit of the LFE track is a success--I just want to give it one final listen at a high volume level to make sure everything is as it should be.  Probably could have released this already and it would have been great, but I didn't want to do that until I was completely satisfied.

Once it gets uploaded, it's off to Satanika for upmixing and LFE replacement, and then hopefully this will be available very soon!  I imagine stereo PCM and 5.1 AC3 would be the most desirable, but is there any call for a DTS version also?

I don't want to sound as though I'm 'tooting my own horn' as it were, but I really do think this is probably the best-sounding version of the film that will be available until the actual 70mm mix makes it out of the vault (or some audio pro makes a more polished version of what I've done).

If you had a 4:3 HD display, the image would be scaled to the appropriate height relative to the width of the screen to keep the correct aspect ratio, similarly to how it is done in 4:3 standard definition.  Unlike dvd, which actually encodes in a 3:2 ratio and is then flagged for decoding as 16:9 or 4:3, Bluray is already natively 16:9, so there is no need to squash the image and then re-stretch upon playback: it is already in the correct ratio, therefore, non-anamorphic.  Films with an aspect ratio wider than 16:9 have black bars encoded into the top and bottom, the same way non-anamorphic dvd's do; the difference is that the vastly greater resolution of HD allows this to be done while still maintaining a high quality image.  An anamorphic system could have been implemented into the HD specs, rather than decreasing the vertical resolution of wider films, but overall it's really a non-issue.  Some people with projector setups like to use "constant image height", widening their screens for wide films the way it is done in movie theatres.  I think a combination of additional video scaling and special projector lenses has to be used to achieve this effect.  It's probably pretty cool if you can get such a thing working, though most people aren't inclined to bother with something like that.

Wow, this thread has really taken off.  We neglected OT fans sure do jump at the prospect of any improvements to the image quality we can get!  lol

True, 720p is not permitted by dvd format, and all HD resolutions are inherently non-anamorphic, being natively 16:9.  The term anamorphic refers only to Panavision-type film lenses and widescreen dvd's since they horizontally squeeze the image and then stretch it back out during playback.  I guess this is probably an H.264 encode on a dvd disc, so a Bluray player would be required.

I would certainly be interested in seeing this if I had the right equipment, though I haven't been able to get in the HD game yet.  From the looks of things the jaggies are the only real problem with the image (and unavoidable DVNR artefacts, obviously).

The thing about the 2004 mix is that using it negates the claim to being the "theatrical version" of the film, because no theatrical release has ever sounded remotely like it (and hopefully never will).  I'm rather attuned to the aural side of things more than the visual, and that mix was the thing that really soured me on the SE's and put me on the path of going back to the unaltered films.

To give an idea of just how wrong it sounds: a few weeks after I got it I did a direct comparison of the dvd with the '85 stereo on vhs, to prove to myself I wasn't imagining the crappiness of the remix, and found that by altering the EQ when playing the tape, I could make it sound almost exactly like the dvd.  The receiver I had access to at the time had a five band EQ on the front, and if I increased the 100 and 300 hz bands to maximum (+10 db I think), left 1 khz alone, and reduced 3 and 10 khz to minimum, the result was extremely similar to the 2004 mix, at least as far as the sound effects were concerned.  This alone proved to me that whoever was responsible for it was a tone-deaf buffoon, and had absolutely no idea what the film is supposed to sound like.  Say what you will about Ben Burtt's need to elevate his sound effects over music, but I have a hard time believing that even he could have had anything to do with that mess.

I'm not sure if my soundtrack would synch to this, since it is derived from the GOUT-synched tracks created by Belbecus, and the frame count is most likely not identical . . .