hairy_hen

Oh, were they?  I've read your page on that subject but I didn't remember that they had been used--that's a good sign, at least.

Again I wonder where that '77 crawl and first shot in the GOUT came from.  Recently it was mentioned that there was some smear or something as the blockade runner first goes by.  I've noticed that too, and whatever caused it might indicate that the source they used isn't in as good condition as it otherwise appears, and a higher resolution scan might bring out other such flaws that non-anamorphic letterbox resolution doesn't show.  Still, I'd probably find stuff like that forgiveable, because it would be way better than what we have . . .

ChainsawAsh said:

The separation masters could be used to make a very good looking Blu-Ray.  Not quite as good as going back to o-neg would, of course, but you'd be surprised at how few Blu-Ray releases actually do go back to o-neg.  Most are transferred from interpositives.

Given that scanning the negative does not allow direct use of the original colour timing, interpositives make a good deal of sense as a source.  Though with fading, that would tend to be less useful than it might at first seem, particularly in this case.

I've always wondered about the separation masters ever since I heard that such a thing existed.  I haven't heard that they actually bothered to use them for the '97 SE, using interpositive material instead to replace badly damaged sections.  That makes it seem very unlikely they'd go to the effort for the version that GL himself is embarrassed by, even if he ever agreed to do them.  Still, at least they exist somewhere for a future restoration effort far down the line, whenever that is finally able to happen.

I've updated the first post of the thread to contain the links for the 'purist' mixes as well as giving more accurate descriptions.

Thinking back, I'm remembering how this all started with me being bored one day and taking my 2004 ESB dvd into a high-end home theatre store, and being amazed at how powerful it sounded with a real LFE channel.  Ever since then I wanted to be able to watch the movies with that kind of strong bass but without having to see the SE changes or the horrid blue-cast, so once I got myself a good subwoofer I set about trying to make that happen.  It took a while to figure out, and a lot of close listening before I knew for sure what they should really sound like, but once I learned that Star Wars was actually the first movie to use LFE in the modern sense, I knew my effort was justified, and that using it for a 70mm recreation would be a worthy goal.

So, just for fun, here's a list of everything in my 70mm LFE channel, including the time, a description, and what was done to make it fit into the rest of the soundtrack.  The majority of the bass in the first movie came from the 1997 special edition 5.1, which plays back with an average volume four decibels lower than the 1993 mix, so all level adjustments for '97 bass are relative to this difference, while the 2004 content did not need to be adjusted this way.  The 1993 effects gain (I believe) another 3 db over what I've listed when combined during playback with what is in the main channels, and are relative to the LFE channel needing to be recorded 10 db lower.

2'10: blockade runner appears; '97, +6 db

2'14 - 2'27: Star Destroyer rumble; '97, +8 db

2'34: blockade runner hit; '97, extended beginning to match synch

2'47: reactor shutdown; '97, +2 db

3'19: ship pulled into hangar bay; '97, -1 db

3'39 - 3'47: stormtroopers blast through wall; '97, +4 db, faded in beginning to match main channels

4'27: laser impact; '97, +6 db

4'33 - 4'52: Vader appears; '04

6'54: laser impact; '97, -1 db

7'02: escape pod launch; '04, +4 db

8'51: Star Destroyer; '97

12'24: R2 falls; '04, -12 db

15'00: sandcrawler; '04, +4 db

15'23: sandcrawler; '04, partially duplicated from previous effect at lower level

36'33: Star Destroyer approaches Death Star; '97

38'13 - 38'28: Force choke; '97, +2 db, ended slightly early for better blend with main channels

41'16: cell door slams; '97, +2 db

50'21: Death Star; '97

53'10: Millennium Falcon takeoff; '93, +4 db, phase-inverted to sum correctly with upmixed main channels

53'20: Falcon flyby; '93, same

53'35: Falcon flyby, Star Destroyers; '93, same

53'56: Star Destroyer fires; '93, same

54'29: jump to lightspeed; '93, same

54'30: Death Star approaches Alderaan; '97, -4 db

56'40: Alderaan destroyed; '97, first half +2 db, SE shockwave -8 db, bass extended until end of shot, very beginning shortened to blend with main channels

1:00'41: hyperspace; '97, +2 db

1:00'49 - 1:01'09: planetary debris; '97, +2 db, last two impacts added to match main channels by duplicating from earlier

1:01'21: TIE fighter flyby; '97

1:01'29: Millennium Falcon flyby; '04

1:01'39: Falcon flyby; '04, -5 db, synch adjusted to match main channels

1:01'53: Falcon flyby; '04, -5 db, synch adjusted to match main channels

1:02'15 - 1:02'40: caught in tractor beam; '93 for 60 hz tone, '04 for 40 hz tone, +3 db

1:03'06: approaching Death Star; '04, +3 db

1:14'49: stormtroopers destroy door; '04, -6 db, synch adjusted to match main channels

1:15'55: Leia blasts garbage chute; '04, -6 db

1:17'20: trash monster roars; '04

1:19'17 - 1:19'45: walls close; '97, -4 db

1:20'38 - 1:22'06: walls close; '04, faded out ending to blend with main channels

1:25'36: chasm door slams; '04, +2 db

1:27'25: blast doors close; '97, +2 db

1:27'43 - 1:27'59: Vader appears; '97, -6 db

1:30'44: Millennium Falcon takeoff; '04

1:30'56: Falcon flyby; '97, +2 db

1:31'15: Falcon flyby; '97, -4 db

1:31'56 - 1:32'04: explosions (x3); '04, first one +3 db

1:32'31: Falcon hit by laserfire; '97, +2 db

1:32'56 - 1:33'40: TIE fighter explosions (x4); '04, +3 db

1:33'52: Falcon flyby; '04, -6 db

1:35'37 - 1:35'56: Millennium Falcon approaches Yavin (x4); '97, -1 db, -2 db, -1 db, no change

1:36'46: Death Star approaches Yavin; '04, -4 db

1:38'33: Death Star approaches Yavin, '04

1:41'32 - 1:42'02: fighters prepare for takeoff; '97

1:43'02: fighters approach Death Star; '97, +2 db

1:43'23 - 1:43'36: X-wings attack, '97

1:43'40: turbolasers; '04, +2 db

1:43'50: Luke attacks; '04, +2 db

1:43'59: X-wing flyby; '97, ended early to blend with main channels

1:44'24: Biggs and Porkins attack; '97/'04, +2 db

1:44'35: Porkins explodes; '04, +4 db

1:44'51: Luke attacks; '04, +2 db

1:45'18: TIE fighter destroys X-wing; '04

1:45'37: Luke destroys TIE fighter; '97, +2 db

1:46'28: Wedge destroys TIE fighter; '97

1:46'51: Y-wings enter trench; '97

1:47'03: turbolasers; '97

1:47'47: Y-wing explodes; '04, +3 db

1:48'01: Y-wing explodes; '04, +3 db

1:48'09: Y-wing explodes; '04

1:48'48: X-wings approach trench; '97, -2 db

1:48'58: turbolasers; '97

1:49'01: X-wing flyby; '97

1:49'18: X-wing flyby; '97

1:49'28: TIE fighter flyby; '97, -4 db

1:49'38: X-wing explodes; '97 +1 db

1:49'48: X-wing explodes; '97, +1 db

1:49'55: proton torpedo detonation; '97

1:50'30: Red Leader crashes; '97, +2 db

1:50'46: X-wing flyby; '97

1:50'56: Luke enters trench; '97

1:51'06: turbolasers; '97, +2 db

1:51'27: turbolasers; '97, +2 db

1:52'14: Biggs destroyed; '04

1:52'25: X-wing flyby; '97, -1 db

1:53'53: Millennium Falcon destroys TIE fighter; '93, +5 db, phase-inverted to sum correctly with upmixed main channels

1:53'58: Falcon flyby; '97

1:54'02: TIE fighter crashes into trench; '04

1:54'05: Falcon flyby; '04, -10 db

1:54'19: ships fly away from Death Star; '97

1:54'23: Death Star destroyed; '97, +2 db, faded out before SE shockwave

1:54'48: ships return to Yavin; '97

Empire and Jedi were pretty much the same sort of thing, except much less work because they were better mixed to begin with; the 2004 LFE was used exclusively, but these were nearly the same as the 1997 anyway.  I put together new bass in a couple of places in Empire, namely during the snow battle and when the Falcon faces the Avenger, and made a general effort to restrain excessive peaks, bring up parts that needed bolstering, and improve synch as needed; but compared to the first movie they were hardly changed at all.

It's all a bit obsessive, I suppose, but I think the end results speak for themselves.  ;)

So I can't remember now--were the two Black Magic'd shots ever uploaded anywhere?  If so, I'd really like to have them both.

The Death Star interiors have always been inconsistent.  It's part of the cinematography, and it most likely depends on the lighting used for each shot and so forth.  In the GOUT they tend to look one uniform shade of dull grey, but that's only because of the image being faded and washed out.  Saturate it and the variations become clearer, as they are in the Technicolor screenshots.

One of the 2004 version's big mistakes seems to have been making the interiors the same shade of blue most of the time, which has the repulsive side effect of making everything else blue along with it, and causing other elements that used to have consistent colours to fluctuate wildly.

That said, the blue does look way too strong in that second screenshot.

18M0ZYM8ND185

4NTR0P1C D4C8Y

Z4R0-T8U

P4RF4CT D8RK

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like that menu picture at all.  I'd much prefer a modified version of the actual GOUT menus.

Someone mentioned before about there being flickering on top of the 'eyes' on the stormtroopers' helmets in the scene where they're bringing Leia to Vader near the beginning.  I've noticed this before, it seems to be an inherent flaw of the GOUT, and it looks like nasty aliasing of some sort.  I was hoping the script would take care of it, but apparently not?  Blast . . .

That clip of the cave scene looked really excellent.  I absolutely love adywan's theatrical ESB, but the only thing I wasn't thrilled with was the lightsabers in the cave still being the crappy '04 versions.  This is much closer to the way it's supposed to be.  Well done!

Well heck, as long as you're talking upscaling, Oppo players are the darlings of the home theatre world, for disc compatibility and picture quality alike, and for much less money than high end products usually cost.  They also have flexible and high quality zoom settings that can be used to deal with non-anamorphic titles.

http://www.oppodigital.com/

http://www.prillaman.net/oppobdp93_review.html

Sluggo, you'll find that most of those differences do not apply to the 70mm version at all.  While the 8mm versions may share some visual effects shots in common with it, very little of the alternate dialogue heard there or in the Story of ESB was actually used for the real thing.  Also, a lot of the things on that list are observations about the SE mixes, and almost none of them apply either.

I completely agree with msycamore's assessment of the dialogue levels in the originals vs. the remix.  Virtually every line is at the exact same level in the SE, even when it doesn't suit the position of the characters onscreen; while the older versions put a lot of effort into creating a realistic sound field with varying levels as appropriate for each shot.  On top of that, you have utterly stupid things like Chewie letting a huge roar just as he is about the strangle Lando, completely drowning out part of Leia's dialogue in the SE, while neither original mix sounded this way at all.  It's the kind of sloppy, misguided foolishness that comes from re-doing something that was already pretty much perfect to begin with, long after the reasons for why it was done a certain way the first time have been forgotten.

The King's Speech.

What a great movie this is!  Colin Firth was amazing, and I was utterly riveted throughout the entire thing.  And can I say that the use of the Allegretto from Beethoven's 7th symphony was an inspired musical choice for the climax?  Talk about making a scene transcendently powerful . . .

Pride and Prejudice fans may be pleased at the notion of a scene containing both Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle.  I wonder if they did that on purpose.  ;)

Makes sense.  I think the only real difference in RotJ (aside from dynamics and bass) is that the main title music is inexplicably the recording from ESB instead.  I didn't change this, because it is kind of strange, but the rest of it should be close as well.

I forgot to mention that the snowspeeder crash sound is indeed there in ESB 70mm, which means its absence in the 1993 mix must be a mistake introduced at some point.  Good thing I put it back in.  ;)

Erikstormtrooper said:

I haven't had a chance to listen to this yet. Are the lines different when Han is talking to the Cloud Car pilot?

Nope.  Exactly the same as the 35mm.  R2 does not taste very good, the shelter is built, Yoda does not squawk with fear when Luke points the blaster at him, Chewie does not roar and drown out part of Leia's dialogue when he strangles Lando, Luke doesn't say "this is it!" before Zev is blown up, C-3PO doesn't say "there's nowhere to go" in the asteroid field, Leia still says "I know where Luke is", etc.  Apparently most of the SE dialogue changes really were just revisionism, and most of the 'Story of ESB' differences seem to be exclusive to that version.

The only different ADR I heard was Lando at the end.  "Luke, we're ready for takeoff" is the one heard in the SE, while "Princess, we'll find Han--I promise" is different take that I've never heard before.  Hearing that scene without the extra music and without the line "When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you" is strange, but it works in its own way.

When Luke runs out of the wampa cave, there was a sound of his lightsaber deactivating, as there is in the SE.  This has to have been done mistakenly, because onscreen it stays lit, which is probably why the 35mm mix removed it.  The double-ignition thing is still there.  I heard different laserfire during the Battle of Hoth at one point (the sound used for TIE fighters rather than X-wings), and there is a different sound for TIE fighter engines after the magic tree scene (not the one used for the SE), but other than that it was all extremely similar.  The levels may have been different at times but it is hard to tell due to the nature of the recording.

If msycamore says the length of the bacta tank scene is exactly the same, I believe him, because it certainly sounded that way to me.  They must have simply edited the picture differently but kept it the same length.  It seems to me that the ESB 70mm version really is virtually the same film, just with a few small things that were finalised afterwards.  The kind of large changes made to the SW mono mix are not to be found here, though admittedly it is the only one of the three movies to have actual visual differences.

An in-theatre recording of the 70mm mix for The Empire Strikes Back has just surfaced at last: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/ESB-70mm-Soundtrack-1980-in-theatre-recording/topic/12501/

Very interesting listening!  As I'd long thought, it is much closer to the 35mm and 1993 mixes than previous speculation had indicated.  None of that extra SE dialogue, just a few small differences in sound effects, and the music the same except for the last scene, which also has different ADR for Lando in addition to being edited differently.  Recreating that part would be rather tough, as well as pointless without doing the video to match (obviously it would not synch to the GOUT).  But since the rest of it is so close, I can confidently state that my most recent 5.1 mix sounds very much like the 70mm version for the vast majority of the movie, which I'm rather pleased about.

Damn, I wrote out a whole long post and then my connection completely crapped out and I lost it.

Anyway--naturally I downloaded and listened to these as soon as I saw the thread.  Funnily enough, I'd just been reflecting the day before on how I'd probably never get to hear this version, and what should happen next?  lol

As I'd suspected, the ESB 70mm mix turns out to be almost completely identical to the 35mm version.  So much so that I pretty much think there's no point in trying recreate it unless you do the video editing to go along with it.  You've got the significant dialogue differences with Lando in the last scene, and it's missing the tracked music due to some special effects shots not being present (making the sound work here would be rather difficult because of all that), but aside from this one scene, there are only occasional minor changes in sound effects to show that it's even a different mix at all!  My current 5.1 will give a sound very close to what this would have been for the vast majority of the movie.  ;)

I always thought the notion of all those extra SE lines and such coming from the 70mm to be based on faulty logic.  Why would all those things have been there originally and then deleted?  Turns out I was right to doubt it!

It was really great hearing the reactions of the crowd to the movie.  Thanks so much for posting this, morgands1.  And a late thanks also for supplying the SW recordings a few years ago--never could have done my project without them.  :)

The retail dvd I have is one disc only, and there are some bonus features on it, but not that many.  It has fifteen chapter stops, and the previews at the beginning are entirely skippable.

We saw the movie twice in the theatre, the first time a few days after it came out and the second about three weeks later.  The dvd has been watched once so far, and I may see it again this afternoon if I don't get interrupted by stupid things.

These are getting good; adywan's screenshots in particular really caught my eye.  It's very cool to see a brighter and more vivid image without the lobster skin tones popping everywhere.  Combining that with the G-force script would give great results for sure.

His rendition does look rather like the '97 SE, which makes sense since they had the Technicolor reference in making that version.  That won't apply to the other two movies though, since there were no Technicolor prints of those.

If a hybrid project were to be attempted, I'd say the '04 version could be used anywhere that crushed blacks are not an issue, but that would probably only leave half the movie at most.

I calculated about a 50% chance that Frink was actually kidding about not liking Inception, but it can be hard to tell with him.  lol

Congratulations Frink, you can now be re-classified as a cool person.  ;)

Speaking of, I've been wanting to watch it again for a few days now, but haven't yet had the chance . . .

Angry aardvarks are awesome and articulate alliteration awareness.

Ah, that makes sense.  I meant 'analogue' in the sense that it's not digital, though maybe that isn't quite the right word for actual film.  Sounds like the process of setting the colours would allow you a good degree of creative adjustment but ultimately it wouldn't stray too far from the source photography, because it is just shifting the whole image in a certain way rather than the sort of intense manipulation that movies today seem to go for.

I keep wondering how much good it would do to apply colour correction to the 2004 footage vs. the GOUT.  For all its flaws, the GOUT is at least sourced from a copy of the actual movie, and so should be closer to the original, but the video noise and fading make it difficult to get something truly accurate from it.  On the other hand, the 2004 version is usually much more saturated and has more information to work from, but the crushed blacks are a huge problem beyond any real fixing, and things like colourless laser blasts and dull sabres have to be adjusted individually.  Both are frustrating messes in their own ways.

True, they're probably not what the actual movies looked like, but they still have a 'natural' sort of look that my eyes find pleasing, far removed from the harsh manipulation of the destroyed SE images.  And since that is what final movies ultimately originated from, there's a certain authenticity involved.

How exactly does analogue colour timing on film prints work, anyway?  I don't know much about that sort of thing.

Phrinke's mom wants to date Ric Olie's avatar.

My only regret . . . is that I have . . . bone-itis.

*dies*

Those trailer pics look just right to me, and would make a great reference for future colour correction efforts.  That's real photography there, not a photoshopped mockery.  Just highlights even more just how wrong the SE renditions can be.

And wow, the GOUT looks really dull compared to that other pic, doesn't it?  Jeepers . . .

Phrinke is no longer a cool person.