hairy_hen

captainsolo said:

SW: The 6 channels were done this way originally- Left, Center, Right, Mono surround and two baby booms on each side of the center channel. These only augmented the bass instead of being discrete. You essentially would just need a 4.0 channel mix and a sub to get the idea. If you added in two speakers you could recreate the full experience but this would necessitate a 6.0 mix or a 7.1 receiver where you could just turn on extra speakers as mirrors cut out the treble and place them accordingly.

ESB and ROTJ were done in stereo surround without the baby booms so this would be much easier.

Not so; in addition to augmenting the low end of the main channels, all three films had real LFE content in their 70mm releases.  This seems to be a point of confusion, but the research I've done on the topic indicates it to be the case, most particularly the remarks of THX engineer Tomlinson Holman (who incidentally is responsible for the adoption of 5.1 as the industry standard audio format).  Also, none of the movies ever had stereo surrounds originally.

In fact, the reason the second and fourth channels of 70mm magnetic sound were used for bass purposes in the first place was because that was the only way to achieve a 'thunderous low end' when the Star Destroyer first goes by overhead.  It's possible that it wasn't quite as loud as you'd expect of such things these days, true, what with subwoofers not yet being standard issue and headroom not quite as high as digital formats, but it was definitely there.  Even listening to a low-fi tape recording made at a 70mm screening the discrete bass content can sometimes be discerned as clearly distinct from the rest of the mix.

The augmented portions of the boom tracks would be a bit problematic for fitting into modern formats, particularly for the first movie since the low pass filter was first set at 250 hz, though by the time the other two came out that had been changed to 125 hz to avoid noticeable crosstalk with the main channels.  Dolby Digital only allows for LFE going up to 120 hz: a flat limit, not just a rolloff, in order to save bandwidth by taking advantage of the Nyquist frequency and only using a sample rate of 240 for the LFE.  In general mixing practice, it tends to be rolled off around 80 hz to avoid the upper limit, and is only used for discrete effects and never as a general crossover.  In making the 1993 mixes for the Definitive Collection laserdiscs, the boom tracks were deemed unsuitable because of these conditions, and the low end was instead added from separate sound effects masters as is the present custom.

So—the 70mm mixes cannot be presented exactly as they are in a remastering.  The LCRS main channels could simply be ported over directly, but the bass needs some care taken to achieve an optimal effect.  Either it would have to take the same path as the '93 mixes and be created over again, hopefully following the aesthetic of the original; or else the actual LFE content isolated from the boom tracks and summed together into one at a proper level.  Either way, the result would be a 4.1 mix with monaural surround, similar to what appears on the Bluray releases of Alien and Aliens.  (The fact that those include their 70mm audio shows that it can be done easily enough as long as proper care is taken.)

As soon as my S/PDIF issue is corrected, I'm going to finish the new audio as quickly as possible, as I'd really like to have it included here . . .

Not as well as I'd hoped, unfortunately: the S/PDIF connection from my computer to the receiver has failed, and until I get that sorted out I won't be able to do any of the listening tests that are essential to determining the final sound.  (I can still connect via analogue, but without the ability to transmit the LFE channel that doesn't do me any good right now.)

There have been various other things occupying my attention as well; I'm intermittently writing a story for which my inspiration has recently returned, and am also serving as editor for a friend who is much more prolific than I am.  So this hasn't been on my mind as much lately—but with Harmy and dark_jedi making great progress on their projects, I am determined to get going again with it as soon as possible and finish up.  Aside from a few things that have still to be revised, most of what's left is just the minutia of putting the thing together, technical rather than creative concerns.  But I can promise that it's going to sound great when it's done.  :)

Suggestions for what to fix?  That's easy.  The lasers during the Battle of Yavin!

There are many desaturated laser blasts during this whole sequence, and some also that are just the wrong colour altogether (blue exterior with a green core, instead of green exterior with a yellow core).  These are still present in the latest workprint, and with everything else looking amazing they stand out as wrong all the more.  I'm actually surprised no one else has pointed them out.

This partially falls under colour correction, so having reference frames with lasers in them would help, but even in the GOUT their hue and saturation level looks good, so you wouldn't have to wait to be able to take care of them.

The Special Editions aren't Star Wars, they are impostors.  The prequels aren't Star Wars either, they are relatives of the impostors trying to tag along for the ride.  As such, hating them doesn't even remotely dampen my enthusiasm for Star Wars, because they are unrelated.

Very much this.

!!

um...so if I did the math correctly, you...weren't here from 1977-1983!?

[tears welling, lower lip quivering] please tell me that was typo.  its inconceivable that you missed the glory years!!

Hey, I wasn't born until 1984 either.  Too young to have seen them in the theatres, unfortunately, but old enough to have watched them at home many times before the SE's came along.  Too young to have seen GL's transgressions for what they really were until I grew up, but old enough to have a strong memory of what was to fall back on once the disillusionment set in.  Both old and young enough to love the real Star Wars for all time.

Hey, sorry about not getting back to you before.  I am indeed continuing with the new version, but unfortunately equipment trouble has prevented me from making as much progress as I'd like, as well as other non-SW things that have taken my focus away from it lately.  But it is indeed going to happen, have no fear.  ;)

I'm planning to use either Hairy_Hen's mixes or the GOUT audio tracks themselves, most likely the later because they are the original audio tracks.

The GOUT audio tracks are not the originals.  They are the remixes made in 1993, and the first movie in particular has very significant differences in sound effects from the theatrical release.  The other two were not fiddled with in this manner but are still not exactly the same.

While my versions are not the exact originals either, they approximate what was heard on 70mm prints as closely as is reasonably possible, and therefore 'feel' more like them.  Also, all the GOUT tracks are reduced in level by 4 db due to DialNorm, and in ESB there is significant dynamic range compression for some reason (my theory is that it was taken from a vhs master); but the levels of my tracks are exactly the same as the laserdiscs.

Naturally, the edit would have to be GOUT-synched for them to work.  If there are places where the special effects from the SE are retained, then the audio won't always match up to the image.  In such cases the only decent option would be to splice in brief sections of the 1997 mix to compensate.

So for the original trilogy will it still be a lossless soundtrack, is there even a lossless for either of the Hairy_Hen's mixes or the GOUT audio tracks?

The 1993 PCM tracks have been around for a while, and hopefully my new versions will also be released available in lossless.  ;)

In the interest of shaking up what has long been a tiresome and repetitive discussion, I will submit that I find Peter Jackson to be even more of a CGI-obsessed hack with no sense of proper storytelling than George Lucas.  One need only compare the Lord of the Rings films to what Tolkien actually wrote to be able to see that; and they offend my sense of good taste far more than anything Lucas has done.

The difference is that the LotR films are universally-lauded, while the SW prequels are certainly not.  The failures of the LotR scripts are just subtle enough to pass under the general 'crap' radar, so hardly anyone ever notices them or points them out, unfortunately.

Maybe I'm just bitter and vindictive on that account, but I would find it immensely satisfying if Jackson were reviled in this same sort of manner for screwing up a magnificent story and turning it into a cliched garbage-fest.  It would certainly make for an interesting change from boring threads like this, at the very least.

I agree.  Guys, please do not subject us to this bickering about sharing of confidential sources.  I think a lot of people forget that we are, in fact, dealing with copyrighted material, and do not have any legal claims to it whatsoever.  Though the appalling treatment the films have received at the hand of their owner is an outrage on many levels, we must keep in mind that these kinds of projects are legally dubious at best, and that access to high quality materials under such conditions depends entirely on the secretive generosity and good will of individuals who do not want attention drawn to them—and that violation of this would only cause them to clam up and refuse any further aid to those with such a misplaced sense of entitlement.

That said, I'm really glad to know that such references exist and are being put to the best possible use, in a way that I and many others will be able to benefit from.  :)

On an unfortunate note, every time I've tried to obtain the latest workprint the download has failed for some reason, so I have not yet been able to view it.  I'll keep trying, I guess, because I'm eager to see the latest improvements.

You_Too said:

Does anyone know if h_h's new mix is lossless-sourced? Otherwise maybe there's no reason to make a DTS-HD MA track of it?

I think h_h's old SW mix was in AC3 448kbps.

As before, the main source is Belbucus' 1993 PCM stereo track; and for this version the edited sections come from Mallwalker's 1985 mix, also lossless.  Due to the specific properties of the bass, the best source for much of the LFE channel is the lossy 1997 mix.

While download links were only ever made generally available for the 448 kbps AC3 encodes of the first versions, d_j did obtain the uncompressed files, though with his computer issues I don't know if he still has them.  This time I hope to eventually post all the tracks in lossless form as well as in AC3, so DTS-HD MA encodes are certainly feasible.  Since most of the audio is laserdisc-sourced, the resolution is 16-bit rather than 24, but all the available sound quality will be preserved.  ;)

*goes back to working on the mixes*

The way I heard it, there's something out there claiming to be a new Megaupload but is in fact a Trojan IP tracker or some other kind of harmful scam perpetuated by the Mystical Ass Wizards who shut the site down in the first place.

Use extreme caution.

You know, it's funny, because for all the talk about Luke's lightsabre being too green/cyan in the wide shot, no one has pointed out the real colour flaw of the image, which is that the pinkness of the creatures on the game table really stands out and looks kind of nasty.

I'm just sayin' . . .

To quote Simon Pegg:

"Enjoyed Hugo, despite almost being ruined by Phantom Menace 3D trailer. Come and revisit the most disappointing 2 hours of your life, in 3D!"

"Who is going to actually pay for the pleasure of having that ponderous, uneven, clumsy piece of shit, literally shoved in their face? WHO?!!"

Man, you just never can tell when the interior of the Death Star is going to be blue and when it isn't.  I'm still not sure why it is so inconsistent, but in my head I had it as being much bluer for that particular shot.  That's really from a Technicolor print?  What is it about the lighting that made it fluctuate so much on that point?

But yeah, I definitely agree that Star Wars is not meant to look remotely like a film produced in the present day.  Such a look only undermines its style of cinematography, which belongs to a different era.  Unlike other movies of the same time, nothing about it looks dated to me in any way, instead taking on a uniquely timeless quality.  I suspect that when the current fad of 'teal and orange' colour timing has passed, modern films will look very dated indeed to future audiences.

Jaitea's adjustment of the dvd image shows that it is indeed possible to rescue the colours in the desert scene.  Very good to know!

Of course it needed to be made: most theatres were still lo-fi Academy mono systems, and playing back a matrixed stereo track this way isn't quite ideal.  But there's a difference between that and doing it over again from scratch and changing lots of things that didn't need to be changed.  Honestly, I think they could have derived most of the mono version from the existing 4-track master and just tweaked it a bit for the format rather than going back to the beginning when it was already right to start with.  Seriously, the difference in balance is not subtle.

Of course there is always the temptation to go back and revisit existing work.  I've been doing that myself with the 70mm recreation.  Perhaps that is justified since it's coming out more accurate to the original this time, though the LFE channel still represents an educated guess of what it sounded like rather than absolute certainty.  But it's very important to be able to recognise what works and ought not to be changed, and exercise restraint accordingly.

And since this thread is about Harmy's project rather than audio tracks, I shall say no more about it.  Later on I'll post some more observations about the colour of the workprint, which for the most part is really fantastic.

Even before seeing Mike's screenshots, I was going to point out that the yellow in those desert shots needs to be significantly increased to approach the right look.  I noticed the near-total desaturation of that scene in the 2004 master years ago, and it's bugged the heck out of me every time I've seen it.  I have no idea whether adding that much yellow to the image will also allow for maintaining realistic skin tones, since the source is so messed up, or if there's even enough colour depth left in it to work with at all, but having an accurate reference is very helpful.  The skin tones are already wrong to begin with, being way too much of a dark brown, so changing them is pretty much needed anyway, I think.

I'll make another point about the same scene, a difficulty that I'd anticipated in advance but waited to comment on until seeing it for sure in the workprint.  The shots of R2 hiding from the sandpeople that are taken from the HD broadcast rather than the Bluray (since the Bluray has those ridiculous rocks shoved in front of him) have some sickly magenta highlights, most noticeable in the rock to the right of the frame.  This sort of thing has been almost completely eliminated from the movie thanks to You_too's Photoshop wizardry on the Bluray footage, but these broadcast shots have not had the benefit of this refinement, and I highly recommend asking him to give them a go as well.

Completely agree with Mike's assessment of the blast doors line, by the way.  Despite a few small mistakes, nearly everything about the stereo and 70mm tracks is spot-on perfect in terms of mixing choices, while the mono (while making a few legitimate improvements) is basically the 'SE' of the original audio tracks.  The blast doors line ruins the scene and is a display of flawed revisionist judgement that foreshadows what would happen to the movie later on.

I am very interested.

That transition clip rules, by the way.  ;)

From Mike's 4k image and other sources I've seen, it's quite apparent that the stars definitely were very big and bright in the original releases, and I absolutely love seeing it presented this way at last.

It's equally apparent that the pan and flyby will have to be re-done in order to keep a consistent continuity in the stars' brightness level.  As it is, the cut between sources is instantly noticeable and the much dimmer stars look bad in comparison.  This is not a subtle problem.

Shoe.

Megaphone.

Grunties.

No, Frink's Mom ate my bagel-homework, thus directly causing World War Four to blow a load from Mount Vesuvius.

Simple, really.

I'm not sure what's the best I've ever heard, but there are some really good ones out there.  If you've just completed a 5.1 setup, you can say goodbye to forced dynamic range compression forever.  It makes quite a difference, I can tell you!

Inception sounds pretty danged awesome.  Huge dynamic range, powerful bass response, and excellent surround usage.  The score is important to the film and is allowed to achieve prominence when it needs to.

Some of the Pixar movies have quite impressive mixes.  The Incredibles in particular stands out to me because its surround panning is some of the best I've encountered.  I have only have standard 5.1, but I imagine that with the EX rear channel it would sound even better.

Out of all the Bond films, I think GoldenEye has the most satisfying mix on an artistic level.  True, they did use a lot of sound effects from older recording libraries, so it can be a bit low-fi at times, and its LFE is kind of boomy and one-note, but I love the way it sounds anyway.  It's just so well put together—the surrounds integrate very well, dynamics are impressive, and you've gotta love the way the bass just dominates and gets in your face in some places.  I highly recommend watching a version that pre-dates the Ultimate Editions, because even though the remixed track cleans up some distortion, its bass response is so much lower than the original most of the time that it can't compare.

Casino Royale is very good also, although in a completely different sort of way.  It sounds a lot more "modern" somehow, but is an example of a newer sound done right.

I just watched X-Men 2 yesterday, and found myself quite drawn in by that.  Not much bass most of the time, but it didn't feel like it was missing anything, and the surround usage more than makes up for it, anyway.  I really like the sounds they used for the various mutant powers, and the score is terrific.

Terminator 2 is another good one.  The sound of Arnold's shotgun is the thing I remember most clearly, but this is just a well done mix in general.

I recall the most recent Narnia film, Voyage of the Dawn Treader, having quite a good mix also.  It was surprising just how immersive it actually was, although I don't recall many specific details off the top of my head.

Editing to add: Can't believe I forget this, but Master and Commander has to be the most utterly realistic recording that's ever been made.  All the little sounds are put together so well that you can really believe you're actually on the sailing ship with the characters, and that's something very few mixes are able to achieve.  In addition, the cannon fire is so powerful it's almost as if you're really being shot at in the midst of all the chaos.  A very large and powerful subwoofer is needed to truly represent all the super-deep bass present here.    

By the way, I heard a rumour that the original version of Star Wars had some really great mono surround stuff going on . . .  ;)

Harmy said:

You_Too said:

And in my opinion the change in this point is very visible too, especially on a calibrated screen:

And these pics are a nice example - they are clearly inconsistent but should I change the one on the left to look like the one on the right or vice versa?

My personal taste would lean towards the colour-timing of the one on the right, because it's more white than the left one, which has a blue/cyan tint but I think the left one is closer to the original, so I'll probably go with that.

The pic on the right looks closer to the production photo, and so is probably more naturally photographic, but the left pic is definitely closer to the film's actual colour timing.  The reason I say this is because it distinctly reminds me of the 70mm film scan of this scene, and also of the GOUT's appearance when its saturation has been increased and the red shift reduced.

The original films did seem to have a somewhat blue tint in some places.  As has been pointed out, this is very different from the hideous cyan which the 2004 transfer pasted over everything.

I'll be glad to look it over also.  Might be slightly delayed since I've got other things going on, but consider me quite interested.

On the February 16, 2006 episode, Jon Stewart mocked the Republican Party's decision to edit scenes from A New Hope to make a promotional movie depicting themselves as fighting against "an evil Democrat Empire," to which Stewart replied, "You control the White House, both houses of Congress, the Supreme Court - you're not rag-tag rebels fighting against the Empire, you are the Empire!

As I recall, after this he said something to the effect of, "Besides, if the Republicans are the Empire, then the Democrats are, at best, Ewoks."

Do keep in mind that the recreated 70mm mix or any other GOUT-synched audio could not be used for a version that retained the SE visual effects in the end battle, because a lot of those shots have added laser blasts and engine sounds and other things that won't match up.  To make it work those parts would have to be replaced with the actual SE mix.

It wouldn't be impossible to edit something like that together, of course, but the only way I'd ever be persuaded to do it would be to stop someone else from doing it incorrectly.  :p