Holy crap, Star Tours TWO?!
*dies*
It was all a ruse to get Ady more Facebook followers (worked for me!) :D
Thanks for the support, guys.
I'm not sure what the media is reporting overseas (living in Japan since '06), but I hope they're informing the rest of the world just how wonderful the Japanese have been in the face of this disaster. NO riots. NO violence. NO finger pointing. Everybody waits in line for their rations and just generally tries to have everything run as smooth as possible. The rest of the world could learn a very valuable lesson from this.
People crack jokes about how "immature" Japanese culture is, but when the shit hits the fan, they act like better humans than a lot of countries I could name. Makes me proud to live here (sorry friends and family, I will not be "coming home" any time soon).
From what little English language news reports I've seen, it looks like they're just trying to scare the crap out of everybody (fear sells and all that).
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Woah! Did somebody say music?
Also, haljordan, I'll miss your crazy inane rants! :D
If you guys want to check out my stuff, you can find all of my releases for free download at:
It's pretty dorky. Mostly electropop/rock with a dash of old Nintendo. Lots of guest vocalists show up to keep things interesting. My last one ("Urotanki") which is sort of a punk/electropop hybrid seemed to be the most popular. It has girly Japanese vocals, so you might not care for them (yes, I live in Japan. Yes I'm okay).
The only other one of special note is "Silent Earth of Stone and Iron" which is sort of a dark, ethnic instrumental thing. Very different than the others.
Working on a ten song album now with the same Japanese vocalist as the last one, but with the way things are going out here, I'm not sure when we'll get together to start recording.
Here's a comparison between two electronic tracks. One commercial, one distributed for free. Feel free to just skip around for 10 seconds.
The commercial track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV8eiSA4vqc
The free track:
http://thesoftgreens.bandcamp.com/track/milk-and-cookies
Nevermind if you like the genres, which one appears to have more effort put into it? ;)
twooffour said:
Your "economical principle", though, heavily relies on familiarity with both commercial and free material, and you're not building up your position by refusing to listen to either of them.
And when did I ever say I "hated" Cameron? Actually, I'm not the only one in my opinion that his latest one was a pure, shitty cheesefest while some of his earlier work actually had some quality to it.
And yea, that's the whole point, the "ungodly" amount of people lining up to see Avatar is NOT, ANY sort of indication for how good the movie is objectively, or ANY sort of indicator for my opinion on it.
People previous stormed into the theaters to see the Star Wars prequels, and they sucked. I have NOT REASON WHATSOEVER to believe that just because a bunch of people pays for some commercial, hyped release, it's going to be ANY good.
I could've picked a random amateur production on Youtube and it wouldn't be any more likely to contain some dumbass plot contrivances and cheesy dialog.
As for the music examples in the OP, can't say I particularly liked any of those - the second two were quite "nice", the second "rock" one sucked (and not just because of the video).
IG88 (the last one) was pretty appealing. Pretty much the same what I get from commercial releases of this sort, some of it is plain embarassing and sucks my balls, some is nice and decent, some is original, fun and awesome.
No difference at all. I remember going through some metal bands on MySpace, some of which were non-commercial (at that point), and I did enjoy quite a bunch of that stuff. Listening to "Vader", on the other hand, makes me puke (it's just an impression I got way back, though, not offering this as valid criticism).
Also listened to some stuff by the OP - the first track started with rock-ish part with somewhat sloppy, but certainly fun fast-pased singing in the style heavily reminding me of The Hives - remember watching some of their (and other rock bands') live shows and the vocal work there is just as unpolished, but "entertaining".
Some nice, catchy stuff there, but nothing I could personally get into or "show all my friends".
This is a non-commercial recording (certainly given away for free on Youtube), not sure about the recital itself, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BdP90ITgFo
From what I could find out, this guy still does his music master at some conservatory. A lot of high quality performances at conservatories are completely free.
The guy certainly knows what he's doing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgOf97kZ-4
Have no doubt he could've easily afforded a better camera, though - lazy prick :)
Nice points!
Yeah, since when did ANYTHING indicate the quality of ANYTHING? I've lived my life making my own decisions based on my own first hand experience.
Those vids were just the first things that popped into my head. I actually don't like that rock song either! ;)
Darth Id said:
Now this is a very rich example for illustrative purposes. Microsoft (or whatever) commissioned those pieces precisely to reap an expected value, based I assume on a portfolio that you let them hear (for free!) that they took as strong evidence that you could produce work of high value for a particular purpose. Everybody who buys that game, in turn, pays a price that includes a component that goes to you, and based on the expectation that the game will have awesome music. A very wide range of market signals will be integrated by each of those purchasers. Even if they game were free, the developer name or score composer credit would serve as a good signal of value. In any event, it might be better than your usual or worse. It depends on you mental processes during production.
How can I possibly have a discussion with someone who refuses to look at the examples I've given, despite having a very strong opinion on the matter?
I don't know, yet here we are.
For your first point: that's a whole lot of nothing you just typed.
Part of my contractual stipulations was that I get to retain all distribution rights for my music and I am allowed to release it free on the internet. I'm obviously doing this because I think the music is worthless. ;)
For your seconds point: thanks for letting me know I'm wasting my time.
I'm just baffled by your reasoning. My friends show me music all the time. I hate a lot of it and like a lot of it. I click on links from "random people on the internet" and I hate a lot of it and like a lot of it.
At least you admit that ALL free music isn't worthless. Maybe you'll find some you like someday.
xhonzi said:
I wanted to follow up on my comments.
There's a lot of music out there. So much, that I couldn't spend 16 hours a day listening to everything once and do a very good job of keeping up with it. So I can either randomly choose (or let be chosen) music to listen to or I can go at it with some kind of strategy.
Like most people, my strategy is "I will listen to the music that I like and not listen to the music that I don't like." I exectute this strategy by listening to music that I already know I like and music that I think I will like, based on the culmination of other factors. I also execute this strategy by not listening to country stations or anyone that plays John Tesh.
So! Listening to music I already know I like is simple, but how do I identify music that I will probably like? Recommendations from friends/family/clever software algorithms that know my tastes and make suggestions is one good way. Listening to Radio Stations that play a mix of things I like with things I don't yet know about is also another good way. Buying (or receiving for free, if you like) CDs (little plastic things with bits on them) by groups I like, that might contain a few songs I already know I like beside several others I don't yet know about is good. Otherwise, I watch TV and see films and sometimes just walk around public places or whatnot and encounter new songs that way as well.
None of these methods are guaranteed to bring me more music that I actually like. But, it's statistically more likely to work than randomly listening to ANY music. I NEED SOME KIND OF FILTER. I never said (and I won't say now) that free music, by uncompensated musicians, can't be good and won't be a song that I will like, but I can say that it's proven to not be worth my time to go through uncommerical music because there are no decent filters out there that I can trust. Say what you will, but commercial music is "targeted" and therefore it's more worth MY time to look for new music there.
Of course I would check out a free song recommended to me by someone whose opinion I trust. Of course I would accept a free CD from a band that I enjoyed. (Not a good comparison- I'm so cheap I would accept most any CD handed to me for free, I just might not go through the trouble of actually listening to it).
I listened to your Youtube song, eiyosus. Not my kind of thing, but it sounded clean. As I'm sure you know well, there's no accounting for taste. But you're right, your production values were high enough, if I enjoyed that kind of music. I didn't mind listening to it- I just wouldn't go out of my way to hear it again or chose it over the music I do enjoy.
And a slight change of tact here at the end- I recently read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers. I recommend it to anyone. Part of the main point of the book is: the people that are really good at things are really good at them almost invariably because they have spent a lot a lot a lot of time working on their skills. I would extend this theory to this conversation by restating what I said before. Someone who is paid to make music can focus their time and talents on making music. Someone who does it for free must either be independently wealthy, impervious to hunger, or be conscripted to devote a majority of their time to working for "the man" and therefore have much less of their time, energy, and talent to dedicate to their music- for which their music MORE THAN LIKELY suffers.
Nice well thought out response!
Thanks for taking the time to listen to one of the videos I posted (I'm not sure which one it was, but it couldn't have been one by me, because I didn't post a video. :D) My reason for posting them wasn't to try to get people to like them (I don't like some of what I posted), just to show some examples of the countless free projects out there.
And that's cool about not wanting to dig through countless free music to try and find the good stuff (MOST of it is crap). To get around this, most netlabels will focus on one genre.
And I just want to let you know, that I never hand out my stuff to people. It's there for them to take it if they want it. ;) How many of them listen to it, I have no idea.
I must respectfully disagree with the last point (what a surprise, eh?), because all signed musicians get signed on the strength of their work, which was made before they were signed, ya' know what I mean? Plus, some musicians/bands get better as they get more money, and some get worse.
Cheers.
Darth Id said:
First off, you should note that this thread begins on pp. 79-80 of the SWonBlu thread, since those won't be the "last few pages" for long.
Second, in response to a remark you made there, I suspect that there is a great deal on which you and I would agree, aesthetically speaking. However, there's inevitably a great deal more on which we would disagree.
And third, I still see no reason to click on any of your links. I tend to hear new music in two ways: seeing a new band play with a band whom I have already paid for a ticket to see; or based on a recommendation from an established credible source (meaning, personal friend) who likens or relates it to a different band whose music I have already deemed worth buying.
There is simply no rational basis upon which I will blind-click links to music based only on the advocacy of a random forum commenter. The expected return on the investment of time just isn't there. (I prefer to reap value from the thrust and parry of arguments and flame wars.)
You clearly participate in an entire community of hobbyists who mutually produce and consume music that is freely distributed. You value this participation in an enormous number of ways, I'm sure. I on the other hand am content to be a discriminating consumer of music, and I value the work of professionals. If, some day, one of your compatriots has a chance to open up a gig at the Mercury Lounge for someone I go see, maybe I'll come to realize its great. But without such reliable hallmarks of value (to me), I won't pursue what I'm virtually certain will be a waste of time.
You're changing your argument. You said that free music must be worthless because it is given away for free. That the time, energy, and passion put into free music is somehow less than commercial music.
You're now calling the music a waste of time on the basis of me linking it to you instead of you finding it for yourself or through one of your friends. The music is the same either way. If one of your friends sent you the link, would you still hold the same opinion of all free music as being worthless?
If I played a show at the Mercury Lounge and you dug me, would the free CD's I give away be worthless to you? By your logic, an album is only as good as it costs. I guess I should be charging $100 for my CD's. People would think it was better because they paid so much for it! :D
And OF COURSE it's not about the software, but I had no idea if you thought I was linking scratchy home recordings through a cheap mic. i wasn't sure if you thought that professionally made music was better because of its production values (I see that you don't).
I did the soundtrack to an upcoming Xbox Arcade game (not out for a long while). I was paid, and I will also receive royalties. Is this music somehow better than my usual stuff just because it's connected to a commercial release?
I'm not asking you to listen to the music I linked so you would LIKE it (these aren't my friends after all). But anybody who listens and can appreciate artistic integrity in music can see it has just as much artistic value as the "professionals" (and if we're talking indie rock, half those guys recorded in their basements).
Well, maybe not my music.....:D
And you didn't answer my other question: if one of these artists were signed, would they suddenly have more merit?
But you said it yourself that you like flame wars, so I have to assume you're being stubborn just to be stubborn. How can I possibly have a discussion with someone who refuses to look at the examples I've given, despite having a very strong opinion on the matter?
I don't care if you're not interested in free music, but don't go calling something worthless with no rational basis.
"Oh boy, that new Spence Edit of RotJ sure does suck."
"Have you seen it?"
"No.....because it sucks"
Sorry about all that (truly I am).
Alrighty, started a thread for it! (citing many more examples of good free music).
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Paid-Music-vs-Free-Music/topic/12480/
Final say in this thread (I encourage everybody involved here to check out the thread!)
Glad so many people got my back. And thanks a LOT for being patient with this rather over-enthusiastic member and not telling him off. ;)
What's shocking to me is that Darth Id CLEARLY likes music that isn't "soulless pop crap." Both Of Montreal and Mars Volta are bands that aren't interested in making as much money as possible and value song writing over how many people listen to their stuff. Seems like he would be all for DIY musicians.
Hey Id, I used to be a big indie rocker back in the day (Sunny Day Real Estate is my favorite band), so I'm on the same page as you. The music I posted (more in the other thread) has artistic integrity. It's not stuff that would ever be played over the radio or sell a million CD's.
And back to SW on Blu (jeez, this thread is like two threads in one!) - I too am curious about this "no comment"....er....comment.
Hey fellas, this is the continuation of a discussion on the "Star Wars coming to Blu-Ray" thread. I'm moving it here because, obviously, it has no place in that thread.
Anyway in a nutshell, people were bringing up pirated music, then I chimed in (long time lurker) and said I was a musician who has never charged for a release or show and all of my stuff is available for free download. Then I went on to discuss the VERY large DIY music scene and how it's all for free (citing examples of stuff I thought was just as good as any commercial release).
One member said that if music is given away for free, then it reflects the content of said music. IE, it's worthless (despite the fact he refuses to listen to any of the examples I gave). More people chimed in (Ady defended me!!:D) and it is starting to take over the thread (okay, it HAS taken over the thread!). Read through the last page or two of that thread, if you're interested.
Anyway, I'd love to read what other member's opinions are (and continue the discussion with the members already involved).
Here are some examples of the music I'm talking about. A lot of DIY music has no vocals, but all the ones I'm posting DO have vocals.
This is all free:
-Adam and Alma (dreamy electropop): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_728Osa1RA
From this album http://www.23seconds.org/043.htm
-Grand Pocket Orchestra (low-fi rock):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJch_y2maHk
From this album: http://www.rackandruinrecords.com/releases18.php#album9
-IG88 (Gotta get a Star Wars reference in here!)(glitchy ambient pop?):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-6ke792dlk
From this album: http://label.idmforums.com/idmf006.html
Triceracorn (hip hop, but not gangsta or anything): http://triceracorn.bandcamp.com/track/insects-feat-ricky-wilson
From this album: http://triceracorn.bandcamp.com/album/surreal-mccoy
-And to put my money where my mouth is:
MY music - some have been released on netlabels, but here is my main hub (everything from electropop, ethnic instrumental, Nintendo music, and punk rock with Japanese girly vocals): http://vlantis.bandcamp.com/
Weather or not you care for the music, I'm pretty sure you can see that they at least SOUND like professionally made music (well, I'm not saying that about MINE :D). These people have just as much passion as the any commercial musicians, the only difference is that they don't ask for money for their music.
What are your guys' thoughts?
Darth Id said:
watch that youtube vid I posted
Pass.
[/detour]
So the guy who refuses to take 20 seconds to skip around in a youtube vid can say ALL free music is worthless...........
So if some record company signed one of these people, that would automatically make their music worthwhile? :rolls eyes:
I like Of Montreal and Mars Volta, btw. I'm not linking some 17 year old wannabee rock star. ;)
But hey, at least we agree on not being excited about Star Wars on Bluray!
I saw one Clone Wars episode on TV here in Japan, and while it was dubbed and I couldn't follow it too well, it actually wasn't bad.
Otherwise I've never seen it.
adywan said:
Darth Id said:
Of course it makes sense.
I've thrown away just about every free CD I've ever been handed. Only listened to about half of them. Giving it away diminishes the perceived value off the bat. (Case in point: eiyosus has linked to an undoubted boundless universe of free music...that I am in no way whatsoever interested in accessing, because the price ($0) is a reliable signal of the likely value of the content (zilch).)
And besides, production value is important, and if the investment into it has been made, it has to be recouped.
Thats got to be the biggest load of rubbish i have read. Just because something is free doesn't mean that it's going to be crap. So you're not interested in any music unless it has high production values and a lot of money was ploughed into it? Well you are missing out on a lot of great music. I guess you're only into all this Pop Idol type crap then? Just because something has had a high end production job doesn't mean that its going to be great music or a great artist. Most likely nowadays its the opposite. Look at all the great music around from great artist that have stood the test of time. Many times they just went into a studio, played the songs and things were recorded on the fly. Production values mean crap. If it's a good song then it wouldn't matter if it had a million pound spent on production or it was recorded in one take in a studio.
There are shit loads of great artists out there that just don't get a chance to break into the industry because reality TV like Pop idol and the X-factor have all but killed the music industry, not piracy. Most bands/ artists are manufactured nowadays and are just puppets of the record industry, told what to sing and how to sing it. The only people making any money out of the record industry now are the record companies. Musicians only make money now from touring.
So what are these artists supposed to do now the industry is so tightly closed? The internet has allowed people to get their music heard. And they can give it away for free. So does this make their music crap. hell no. Even some of the larger established artists are starting to give away their tracks/ albums for free now on the net
Anyway this thread has gone so far off topic its time to bring it back.
Now we know that Luke constructing his lightsabre has been confirmed, there's another scene i really hope that they include in the deleted scenes of the OT. And that is the Dagobah lightsabre training from ESB. After coming across these photos the other day, the scene has been filmed:
Holy crap! Of ALL the people to back me up, it's the great Adywan himself! :D I just think it's funny that somebody would dismiss free music as crap, despite the fact that many DIY musicians now have access to the same software the big boys use. Seriously, watch that youtube vid I posted and tell me you would have known it wasn't professionally made and released.
And besides, Adywan himself is proof you can do great things from home.
Back to Blu. what I'd REALLY like to see are deleted scenes nobody even knows exists (if there are any). Sure we all know about the sandstorm and the extra wampa's, but is there anything else that has never even been spoken of? I'd also like to see some footage of Yoda test puppets (if any were ever made). Was anything altered before the final puppet was sculpted? Stuff like that.
Heh, sorry.
As for Star Wars on Blu, the only way I'll buy it is if Adywan ends up sourcing it for any of his revisited projects.
Hi guys! I'm not only a music geek, I'm a Star Wars geek. ;)
Sorry for going WAY off-topic. I'll let you guys have your say and drop this. Maybe I'll make an off-topic thread! :D
There's a difference from what I'm talking about and crappy demo tapes from horrible bands. :)
Just because something is free doesn't mean it's valueless. What about Star Wars Revisited? That's free. ;) (yeah yeah, I know it's based on something that's not). What about the articles Zombie posts on his web page? Surely those aren't worthless.
How can you say the quality of free music isn't good if you haven't even bothered to listen? Some of it depends on the style of music you like. You're not going to find these huge overblown productions like in some popular music, but what you've done is essentially call my music worthless (without even hearing it) because I don't make people buy it. I don't shove these albums in peoples faces at my shows. If they want them, they're free to take them. I've spent thousands of dollars on software and equipment, so I'm not some guy playing a guitar into his computer mic or anything ;) (I'm not trying to say my music is good, that's up to the listener, I'm trying to say that professional sounding music is completely doable from your home in these modern times).
So should I sell my music and then encourage people to pirate it? Would that make it seem valuable? :D
I was just trying to give you guys a view of the pirating situation from a musicians eye. If you have a minute to kill, watch this video and tell me this music is worthless (vocals start after a little bit): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_728Osa1RA
This album is available for free, and no it's not mine. ;) Can you honestly tell me that doesn't have the same artistic merit and sound quality as a commercial release?
Sorry for ranting, but I wasn't expecting so much pessimism. My Liberal use of smileys is to let you know I'm not raving mad or anything!
*flashes peace sign*
crazy_verbigracia said:
Hello all, as this is a very interesting subject, I'll try to contribute with my own point of view.
Mithrandir said:
So most of professionals here have it clear that, in some way, their achievements are product of the collective effort of a society who payed their studies. This, for some people, is indeed a "moral debt"; and even if we all have some point of individuality, and ambition, no one lives and progresses completely on their own.
I can see the logic behind your argument. However, I do not agree with the idea that you're suggesting: "As I own my (musical) education to society, then my music should be free for all". No matter how you look at it, this "moral debt" doesn't justify piracy. Your ideas remind me eerily of Marx, as the concept that your work is for the society as a whole, and not for you, (non-existence of private property) is one of the main ideas of classic comunism. Of course, our education is paid by other persons, but the so called "moral debt" is an illusion, as we too pay for other people's education, thus creating the necessary cycle (and without the necessity of giving up the fruits of our hard work).
Besides, I wouldn't underestimate the market, surely they'll find someway to solve this "piracy" problem and keep making money.
I agree with you, but again, this doesn't justify piracy. It's not fair to consider that "Even if it's wrong, it will be solved, so I'll do it anyway". Sure, the market will grow two more heads if this one is cut off, but that doesn't mean that the two new heads (DRM, anyone?) are going to be fairer than the old one.
Cheers
Hey guys, I've been lurking here for years, but it took a topic completely unrelated to Star Wars to get me to post :D
Sorry that this is totally off-topic.
I've been a DIY musician for five years now (used to play in bands before that, but we never distributed our music), and would never dare ask for any money for my releases. All of my music is free to download and will always BE free to download. I bring 50 CD's to each of my free shows and pass them out for free to anybody who wants them, and I sometimes leave stacks of them at record stores.
This attitude is not uncommon for newer musicians. I think the days of these mega stars who make millions are numbered. A lot of DIY musicians think free online distribution is the way of the future. As it becomes easier and easier to record from your home, the aura of the rock star will fade (not altogether, mind you) and the people who create and release music will be people who truly have a passion for making music, and not for fame/money/sex.
There are so many netlabels out there releasing music for free, it's not even funny. I don't even bother to listen to commercial music anymore, because it's just not necessary. Actually, to keep this Star Wars related, here's a pay-what-you-want (even $0) album by IG88 ;) http://ig88.bandcamp.com/album/mutual-mastication
What I'm getting at, is that even musicians themselves don't believe you have to make money from music.
PS: Hey Zombie! Loved the book!
