doubleKO

Bingowings said:

I don't hate it.

It has some nice moments and Mark is perfect.

Some of the special effects are amazing even now (others are really awful).

It did play out as the contractual obligation episode of the OT and now it points to the direction that PT would later follow.

The plot frequently makes no sense (Luke's Han rescue plan makes as much sense as the Clone mystery in AOTC and succeeds largely because it had to succeed because it's in the beginning of the film rather than any part of the plan itself).

The problem with the Ewoks isn't the Ewoks themselves but the way they are portrayed.

They never come across as small, furry alien people and always seem like small humans in costume.

The Galactic Empire shrinks from a large hierarchically structured junta ruling thousands of star systems backed with thousands of heavily armed starships and trillions of troops to two old men and a few dozen ships hiding behind one superweapon idea. All it takes is one of them to throw the other down a convenient placed hole in the floor and the whole thing falls apart.

If with a bit of modification Return Of The Jedi was Episode IX and it showed the desperate last gasp of an already collapsing Empire it would make more sense.

Lucas just fell out of love with Star Wars and wanted it over and done with and it shows in the rather cheap looking recycled feel of ROTJ.

I don't think he fell back in love with it with the PT but he missed the money and technological advances meant he could make three more films to sell and keep on selling on a lower than the Hollywood norm budget.

That said, it is fascinating that there is much in ROTJ and the PT that is still enjoyable and visually interesting.

If there had been more love and attention paid to the core of those films (the story and the characters) they could have been as good as the first two and have cost just the same amount.

The only way that they can be made to work is to take them to pieces and reassemble them into largely brand new films.

I still want the theatrical presentations of all six Star Wars films officially restored and available because of their place in cinema history but in terms of enjoyment ROTJ:SE fails as much because of the changes it doesn't make (to make the story and performances make more sense and fix the broken tone) as much as the changes that bugger up the few things that did originally work.

Nice post. A bit depressing but hey, nearly everyone has to admit it has major problems even if they love it to death. The part of your post that I made bold made me remember something really embarrassing. Yes you are absolutely right: when they are on film/video at least. As a naive 8 year old I saw my first picture of an ewok:

You can't say this always looked like a small human to everyone because I was convinced it was a dog trained to stand, with some kind of godawful fur and latex enhancements! I was a bit freaked out to be honest. Chewie, naturally - big guy in a suit. But even though I had seen Wizard of Oz the thought of little humans never occurred to me until I saw them move :P

S_Matt said:

doubleKO said:

S_Matt, I can identify if not agree with everything you've said except this:

S_Matt said:

Jedi and Star Wars only really differ from the prequels in that the actors and the characters are like-able and believable.

Woah there buddy! To say that Star Wars was on terms with the prequels or even Jedi in terms of pacing and story delivery is utter rubbish. George might have directed but his friends he showed it to hated it. Whoever was the editor for Star Wars (and I'm ashamed that I don't know...) was largely responsible for the movie's success. The fact that the now-replaced and horribly out-of-place Biggs hangar scene was cut is a testament to the editor's gift. In at least some of the PT I believe George used Ben Burtt, his SOUND editor to edit the video. To his exact specifications no doubt, leaving all that boring exposition-y crap intact.

Well the version of Star Wars Lucas had screened for friends and colleagues was barely more than a rough assembly. Its not unusual for these to be very poorly received. ALL films are made in the editing bay. One cannot overstate this simple truth. The film was re-edited by a crack shot team of editors that included Lucas's wife of the time (who edited Taxi Driver for Martin Scorsese). Just FYI.

And Ben Burtt was *the* editor on the Prequels. There's nothing wrong with the pacing in those films, even the story doesn't bug me much. Its all down to the wooden delivery and poor dialogue (but its a deliberate stylistic choice!) that Lucas insisted on that sank the Prequels.

The story of the first film is so minimalist anyway - its all down to the cast that it worked so well.

Again all of this is a worthy rationalisation of your opinion and I respect your argument. Maybe we can just agree to disagree on the story and pacing of the PT. Out of interest have you seen the Phantom's edits? With Star Wars it's not all down to the cast, it is also down to another word within your same sentence: minimalist.

S_Matt, I can identify if not agree with everything you've said except this:

S_Matt said:

Jedi and Star Wars only really differ from the prequels in that the actors and the characters are like-able and believable.

Woah there buddy! To say that Star Wars was on par with the prequels or even Jedi in terms of pacing and story delivery is utter rubbish. George might have directed but the friends that he showed it to hated it. Whoever was the editor for Star Wars (and I'm ashamed that I don't know...) was largely responsible for the movie's success. The fact that the now-replaced and horribly out-of-place Biggs hangar scene was cut is a testament to the editor's gift, and Lucas' folly. In at least some of the PT I believe George used Ben Burtt, his SOUND editor to edit the video. To his exact specifications no doubt, leaving all that boring exposition-y crap intact.

asterisk8 said:

doubleKO said:

TV's Frink said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

The kids don't care so much about HD. 

Wait, what?

I take it he means his kids. Though my son couldn't care less either. He gets annoyed when I fiddle with settings on the TV. "Who cares, just watch it". He doesn't even notice if he's watching a 4:3 picture stretched to 16:9 or vice versa :P

If that was me and my kid, I'd say, "You go to your room until you can learn to be an obsessive quality snob like your father!"

Very close. Obsessed-with-quality slob is closer.

Anchorhead said:

Star Wars77 is all I have any interest in,  film-wise.

That's good enough for me. Star Wars stands on its own without the rest of the OT, its complications, most if not all of its controversy and ramping levels of debate to match. My take so far is this: you can't accept the OT without accepting Jedi. Maybe that is why most fans love Jedi or at least begrudge it its place in the trilogy without hate: If you can only accept Star Wars and Empire the bad guys win :(

CO said:

The irony of the PT is that it actually made me look more unfavorably towards Jedi, because you can see the seeds of SW getting shitty in 1983, and it comes full circle in 2005. Back in the mid 90's, I thought Jedi was just a hiccup by Lucas (so I enjoyed the movie with a grain of salt), but now you see things are alot more clear now as to where the movies were headed.

For many fans like myself who love Star Wars and Empire, and think the SW universe gets worse after 1980, that means the SW saga has only 2 great movies out of 6. That is a 33% rate for all you Saga defenders on that new Facebook page who are about to pay 100+ dollars for that boxset ;)

I'm not sure I like your attitude ;) It is easy to see Jedi/the ewoks as the beginning of the end, but it sounds like you are taking the same stance as these "Saga defenders" by acknowledging a saga at all. For me it is easier to separate the PT material than to look more unfavourably on Jedi because of the PT.

I think I even like the inconsistencies, and continuity be damned; that makes it easier for me to FORGET about the PT while I am watching the far superior OT. I enjoy the Phantom's edits as a separate entity to the OT like the Clone Wars cartoon, and to be honest I have seen ROTS twice and barely remember it.

I don't really want to send my own Jedi thread off-topic but I agree with you on one thing - I for damn sure won't be buying the box set (unless they restore the OOT). Also your 33% theory doesn't hold up. As I have scientifically proven above you must accept Jedi to accept the OT :P So that gives you 50% right there. That's a pass in Australia but I don't know about other countries. In the US you need 60% right? :(

edit: Sorry I shouldn't be flippant with you CO as you are one of the fans that I was looking for. I just didn't really want the PT brought into it. Do you watch Jedi at all? Are you satisfied with Empire as a conclusion to a two-part saga? Or do you just get to the end of Empire and go "Meh I remember...Rancor, Jabba, skimpy Leia, Death Star, Ewoks, Lightsabers, explosion. Been there, done that."?

Anchorhead said:

I've never cared for it.  In 1983,  I took the day off to be part of the opening day hype.  I was so let down that I considered walking out.  20 minutes or so into the film I started having my doubts.  3PO telling the story to plush toys was what finally started the long goodbye. I came out of the theater very disappointed.

I saw it again around 1997 or so.  We used to do Lunchtime Theater at work. We'd watch films in 45-minute installments during our lunch hour, in a nice conference room. That's the last time I saw it.  It still did nothing for me.

TV's Frink said:

thejediknighthusezni said:

The kids don't care so much about HD. 

Wait, what?

SilverWook said:

It's been a love hate thing with me over the decades. Ewoks could have been more vicious in battle, (they may have been tamed in the editing process) but I don't loathe them as much as Gungans.

The heart of the movie is still the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict. Luke going temporarily darkside crazy and wailing on Vader is still more interesting than Super Mario Jedi in ROTS. ;)

There were never SW happy meals. The only major fast food tie ins were the Burger King glasses. Something the new Star Trek movie actually brought back!

OK, happy meal theory... DENIED! Luke/Vader/Emperor I would still have enjoyed too.

timdiggerm said:

You know, I thought I hated it, but I watched it last night (DJ's GOUT V3 if you care, though I really do like the SE/2004 ending music and interplanetary party), and I was amazed at how much I liked it, post-Jabba. The Jabba stuff...needs work.

It was overly long and needlessly complicated. But the sheer presence of Jabba and the wealth of REAL creatures in the form of puppets and latex/makeup was just exhilarating at that age. I take it most of you regulars have seen docos like Star Wars to Jedi? I am still amazed at the complexity and effectiveness of that giant three-man puppet Hutt. And even if you don't like Lapti Nek (I think everyone hates Jedi Rocks don't they?) Phil Tippett dancing the Sy Snootles "reverse" puppet from under the stage is still absolutely brilliant. I definitely enjoy the Luke/Vader/Emperor side to the story as I corrected above too, but the second Death Star battle and planet of the teddy bears is lame.

Strangely though you guys are confirming my theory so far. I think sometimes I should hate it. I have actively tried to hate it. I never do. Maybe it's just impossible to hate. There MUST have been fans that saw it at age fifteen or so and thought "What the F!@# was that? Ewoks? Star Wars is ruined! But I've never met one.

I was nine when I saw Return of the Jedi in '83 and I liked the ewoks. It is my least favourite of the OT now but was my favourite from age nine to about twelve. Is there anyone who is a few years older that loves Star Wars and Empire but hates Jedi? Younger people feel free to post your thoughts too of course.

If I was four or five years older I'm not sure how I would have felt about it at all. I think I would have still enjoyed Jabba's Palace but might have hated the rest of the movie. George definitely went a bit Walt Disney on our asses.

I heard a rumour ages back that dealing with companies like McDonalds put pressure on him to make the movie more kid-friendly so they could sell more happy meals. Can anyone confirm or deny this conspiracy theory?

corellian77 said:

doubleKO said:

Random thought: Blast points on stationary sandcrawler too accurate for Sandpeople, who incidentally can shoot down racing pods that are too fast for most humans to pilot.

Even more comical when coupled with the suggestion that stormtroopers, those dead-eye marksmen of the galaxy, must've been responsible instead.

Touché Turtle.

Anyone know why my last couple of posts won't let me start a new line?

Shows up fine in the text box but paragraphs are just being displayed as one whole block :P

*edit* Fixed with HTML paragraph tags. Not sure why I had to do it that way though... clearing browser cache did it maybe?

Fair enough. I don't. I didn't hold back because this thread is about resentment after all. I'd be interested in hearing if others think it was just the easiest way to give us the OOT or if George wanted to deliberately release an inferior version to convert more to his revised vision. In my mind he has become a petty, ignorant man who I can easily believe would have those kind of intentions.

From the standpoint that it was a bonus disc and was actually released in some form: OK, maybe not a deliberate slap in the face. More like a younger sibling waving a hand right in front of your face while yelling "I'm not slapping you! I'm not slapping you!" The fact is he knew he would get a lot of people's money twice and that the ones most looking forward to the GOUT release would be the most disappointed.

Forcing revisions into a classic work of art and destroying the originals that so many hold dear IS a deliberate slap in the face however, and the fact that the OOT was not restored and released properly in the first place with the '04 set is the real issue.

I assume EVERYBODY had seen Vader Sessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0rwG39Jzk

If not, do yourself a favour!

Luke Skywalker - Worst Scout Ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQzo6YpVbcs&feature=BFa&list=UL9S_pAZC7EHE&index=5

I was still laughing ten minutes later.

I liked Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Zahn trilogy was OK, loved Shadows of the Empire on N64, Jedi Knight 2 on PC. Actually I even quite enjoyed the Phantom Menace game on PlayStation!

Despite being a Star Wars fan and an avid reader as a child (still a fan, not much of a reader anymore), I never felt that reading and Star Wars went together well. Star Wars began as an audio/visual universe and that is obviously how it works best.

I really liked Genndy's Clone Wars and the newer Clone Wars series is OK at times but I can take it or leave it.

And at the risk of getting flamed by at least one previous poster: I'm glad the EU re-appropriated Boba Fett and made him badass again after his lame inclusion and death in Jedi.

Random thought: Blast points on stationary sandcrawler too accurate for Sandpeople, who incidentally can shoot down racing pods that are too fast for most humans to pilot.

Thanks for the V3s dark_jedi! I seemed to find out about them right on time.

Amen to that brother. That slap in the face is what recently brought me to this lovely community. I could not bear to watch the DVDs I bought in 2004 more than once, and I absolutely resent that I had to buy a second copy of them to get the GOUT.

It wasn't an accidental slap either, George wanted to piss off the people who wouldn't accept his revised vision and gave us the bare minimum, when it would have been far easier and cheaper than he claimed to give us a decent transfer.

I resent the GOUT for its quality, I resent Lucasfilm for their cash-grab release and I have resented George ever since I saw the theatrical release of Star Wars "Special Edition" in '97. No offense to 97SE fans; he has ruined the memories of three generations of fans now and that version is not available on DVD either. Where is your GOAT?

I recently got dark_jedi's GOUT V3 and the difference in color correction, antialiasing and grain removal while retaining detail is amazing. Add to that the elimination of camera shake, anamorphic presentation and six different audio tracks to choose from: I finally feel like I am watching Star Wars again, not compromising my integrity.

(Thanks dark_jedi, gforce and everyone who worked on it, in case I don't make it back to that thread).

I guess as you say, it's better than nothing. It's digital and won't degrade. It allowed the above-mentioned guys to turn it into something a lot more acceptable. I guess after saying he would never release it and getting most of us to buy the POS 2004 set, it made sense for George to take our money again.

I'm with you ChainsawAsh, Lucasfilm won't get another cent from me until the OOT is properly restored. "Jedi Rocks" in 1080p? *shudders*