chyron8472

TV’s Frink said:

jollyreaper said:

They’d be quite happy churning out Michael Bay-style lucrative garbage until the end of time.

Lol I can’t tell if you haven’t seen any of the new Star Wars movies, or you haven’t seen any Michael Bay movies, or both.

This.

The Disney Star Wars films are not akin to Michael Bay. Michael Bay movies are not only popcorn spectacle movies, but they stretch suspension of disbelief to its breaking point and beyond.

For example, in the Transformers:Dark Side of the Moon film, Leonard Nimoy’s robot character literally gives dialogue lifted straight out of Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan (“The needs of the many…”). Plus the main character, Sam, does video-game-style base-sliding under the entire width of a car; and similarly has God Mode turned on so as to survive jumping through an unbroken skyscraper window without a scratch and being violently slung around by a steel tether attached to his wrist without injuring his shoulder whatsoever.

It’s not at all the same. Disney’s Star Wars films are not popcorn movies.

Shopping Maul said:

chyron8472 said:

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

I think there’s a nice simplicity to the idea of force-ghosts as personal guides only. Giving them discretionary physicality muddies the waters somewhat (as evidenced by this thread).

But Ben Kenobi says to Vader “If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” Pigeonholing him then into someone only capable of talking would, I think, cheapen his potential power as a sentient non-corporeal being of the Force itself. Sure, he doesn’t do more than guide in the OT, but that doesn’t mean he literally can’t. The OT just leaves any further possible force-ghost powers a mystery because neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda use them.

Mithrandir said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

Reading someone’s mind and sensing their feelings are different abilities.

[chyron8472 said:]

I still want to know why Warb is so stickler about holding to film canon (in general) or to having a film speak only for itself.

I suggest a “To canon or not to canon” thread discussing the importance of official canon vs. headcanon; or overt explanations in a film/show vs. including supplemental information.

Shopping Maul said:

adywan said:

Valheru_84 said:

All this Yoda calling lighting justification talk sounds to me like mental gymnastics 101. Yoda somehow via the force either creating, influencing, directing, etc. the lightning in TLJ just doesn’t sit right with me whatever the reasoning. Pre-ST force ghosts could not affect the physical world. Suddenly in the ST they can directly influence the force back in the real world.

Sorry but I don’t buy it anymore than I bought the ugly Yoda puppet. I also didn’t buy “crazy yoda” as he wasn’t crazy or unhinged in the OT, just a little eccentric and put on a crazy act to either test Luke in TESB or make himself seem harmless while checking out who this stranger was that just crash landed in his backyard.

Val

Yoda was joking around even when he was dying in ROTJ. He always had a jovial side. Something the PT completely got rid of with grumpy frowning Yoda. TLJ Yoda was the same Yoda we see in the OT.

And OT Force ghosts could interact physically with the real world, so why can’t they also use the force? Or is it just because it’s been introduced in the ST that’s the problem?

I don’t recall any physical interaction in the OT (apart from Obi Wan’s ludicrous ‘sitting on log’ scene which doesn’t really count IMO). The issue is the fact that ghost-Obi Wan made it plain he could not assist Luke in fighting Vader. This means either a) force-ghosts can’t interact or b) force-ghosts are jerks.

Maybe, as a Jedi, Ben Kenobi feels it is appropriate to let Luke face his own battles rather than directly interfering. To do so would disrupt Luke’s journey toward becoming a Jedi because it could turn Luke into a noob by relying on Ben to solve Luke’s problems.

That is, Ben could interfere, but chooses not to because it is inappropriate in order for Luke to forge his own path correctly. When Ben says “I can not interfere”, he’s referring to a moral code rather than a physical limitation.

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

2. the minor interaction with surroundings we see in ROTJ don’t matter near as much as finding out that force ghost Obiwan and Yoda maybe could have appeared before the Emperor and Vader and zapped them.

But Yoda didn’t just zap the tree out of thin air like the force lighting the Emperor uses. This has already been explained to you.

Whatever you want to call it, it sure would have been nice if had used it on the Emperor in ROTJ after Yoda died.

Please point me to the scene in the Emperors throne room where there were storm clouds over head so we could have had the same lightning and then i’d agree with you.

He needs storm clouds? That is never explained. What if in a future movie a force user does it without storm clouds, then can I ask why force ghost Yoda doesn’t zap the Emperor in ROTJ?

The fact that there are storm clouds coming in overhead and the lightning comes from those clouds that we clearly see in the film, isn’t enough to explain where the lightning comes from? What more did you need? Ric Olie suddenly popping his head from behind a rock to explain where it came from? 😉

We are talking about the force here, he doesn’t necessarily need storm clouds.

Says who? Where is this explained in a movie?

the movie never said he required storm clouds. For all know, he doesn’t need them.

Do you even know what point you’re trying to make now cuz I certainly don’t anymore.

when it me verses so many people? maybe I don’t what point I am trying to make anymore.

It is not you vs. so many people. You refuse to accept any explanation outside of the film itself. That is your own choice. You find inconsistencies because you choose to leave them inconsistent rather than include supplementary sources.

Warbler said:

So which did the emperor say?

Why. does. it. matter???

Why? Why does it matter to you?

You might as well argue which English translation of the Bible is or isn’t valid based on the vocabulary used at the time of publication; or whether any understanding we have about God Himself not specifically written in the Bible is invalidated because the Bible doesn’t explicitly say so.

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

adywan said:

Warbler said:

2. the minor interaction with surroundings we see in ROTJ don’t matter near as much as finding out that force ghost Obiwan and Yoda maybe could have appeared before the Emperor and Vader and zapped them.

But Yoda didn’t just zap the tree out of thin air like the force lighting the Emperor uses. This has already been explained to you.

Whatever you want to call it, it sure would have been nice if had used it on the Emperor in ROTJ after Yoda died.

Please point me to the scene in the Emperors throne room where there were storm clouds over head so we could have had the same lightning and then i’d agree with you.

He needs storm clouds? That is never explained. What if in a future movie a force user does it without storm clouds, then can I ask why force ghost Yoda doesn’t zap the Emperor in ROTJ?

The fact that there are storm clouds coming in overhead and the lightning comes from those clouds that we clearly see in the film, isn’t enough to explain where the lightning comes from? What more did you need? Ric Olie suddenly popping his head from behind a rock to explain where it came from? 😉

We are talking about the force here, he doesn’t necessarily need storm clouds.

Says who? Where is this explained in a movie?

the movie never said he required storm clouds. For all know, he doesn’t need them.

Do you even know what point you’re trying to make now cuz I certainly don’t anymore.

The point he’s trying to make is there are inconsistencies he finds in the film, but he chooses not to accept any information to explain those inconsistencies other than the film itself. So any explanation we give is invalid if the movie doesn’t irrefutably corroborate it.

Warbler said:

3. You can either offer an explanation to make it make sense or you can take it out of the movie.

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

yotsuya said:

How is Leia a princess?

When a prince and a woman love each other very much, they get “married” and the woman becomes a princess.

Actually, Leia is a princess because her adoptive mother was a queen.

It is not explained in the films. But as has been said, Warb, just because something is left unexplained does not mean it is unexplainable. Before you call out TLJ for not explaining things you wish it had, I suggest you read the novel because it might answer those questions.

again, [explanations] aren’t canon.

If it’s not in the movie, then you apparently don’t accept it as canon. If you don’t accept novels as canon, you also won’t accept our explanation as canon. If you don’t accept our explanation as canon, and you only accept canon, then why do you want explanation?

If you only want to complain because there is no in-film explanation, then that’s your own fault for not accepting external sources of information as relevant. You choose to not accept them.

It is not the movie’s fault. It is by your own choice.

dahmage said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

I would think calling an abomination a gift from God would be a problem for you…

It would if he took you seriously.

Or perhaps he is saying it is you who are mistaken, about a great. many. things.

Should we take you seriously?

No.

 
…Sorry. I said no meaning yes.

TV’s Frink said:

I would think calling an abomination a gift from God would be a problem for you…

It would if he took you seriously.

Or perhaps he is saying it is you who are mistaken, about a great. many. things.

SilverWook said:

Another FO chap also looked a lot like the late Admiral Piett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

We don’t need to have everything explained by the film. There are other non-film sources with which to draw on for relevant information to people who would care.

Those other sources aren’t canon.

And why do you need an officially-canon explanation? Why are explanations for things subject to the whims of the production studio? Lucas at one point said The Force Unleashed video games were canon. I don’t know if they still are. And recently the powers-that-be said The Clone Wars tv show is canon. But all of the once-EU-now-Legends material is considered worthless for giving in-film events explanation or backstory?

If you so desire explanation for why something works the way it does or why an apparent inconsistency has occurred, why do you only accept the official answer given by the studio in the form of film rather than working it out with other hardcore fans (including book authors) to come to a conclusion that makes sense to you?

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

We don’t need to have everything explained by the film. There are other non-film sources with which to draw on for relevant information to people who would care.

Those other sources aren’t canon.

Then why do you care? Why do you want the film itself, by itself without external sources, to explain everything when the film is already over two and a half hours long?

Most viewers don’t need characters to exposit information only relevent to the hardcore fandom. Especially when this is fantasy, not science-fiction.

TV’s Frink said:

yotsuya said:

How is Leia a princess?

When a prince and a woman love each other very much, they get “married” and the woman becomes a princess.

Actually, Leia is a princess because her adoptive mother was a queen.

It is not explained in the films. But as has been said, Warb, just because something is left unexplained does not mean it is unexplainable. Before you call out TLJ for not explaining things you wish it had, I suggest you read the novel because it might answer those questions.

We don’t need to have everything explained by the film. There are other non-film sources with which to draw on for relevant information to people who would care.

TFA as a film doesn’t explicitly explain how the Starkiller Base weapon works or why the explosion could be seen from outside Maz Kanata’s castle. The novel does. ROTJ doesn’t explain how Leia obtained a costume impersonating Boushh; or why Lando, the droids, Leia and Luke arrived at Jabba’s Palace separately.

Mocata said:

There are so many options in a magical space fantasy and people are arguing over the supposed rules, again.

People like for their favorite fictional universes to make sense. Discussing why it makes sense in and of itself makes the universe feel more real.

dahmage said:

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Also, its all made up stuff anyway.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason to say this.

1. we all know that

2. that could excuse any continuity error/plot hole in any fiction.

3. it being true, doesn’t mean the fiction universe shouldn’t make sense.

4. its lame to say it

thanks for continuing to focus on something that wasn’t even the point…

You’re welcome. But even if it was a joke, it wasn’t a very good one.

moviefreakedmind said:

There’s a lot of tolerance and respect for the alt-right interestingly enough.

There is? I thought most people consider them the modern-day KKK or a subsect/rebranding of neo-nazism or something. That is, the alt-right loves Trump and most people think Trump supporters are dumber than a wet fart.

Warbler said:

dahmage said:

Also, its all made up stuff anyway.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason to say this.

1. we all know that

2. that could excuse any continuity error/plot hole in any fiction.

3. it being true, doesn’t mean the fiction universe shouldn’t make sense.

4. its lame to say it

Handman said:

A Last Jedi discussion thread?

A Last Jedi Discussion Thread discussion thread?

I recently bought a couple board/card games as birthday presents.

Star Realms+official deck box for my Dad. Harry Potter: Hogwarts Battle for my wife.

What item or items have you most recently bought?

It can be food, video games, 55-gallon drums of personal lubricant, or whatever.

Last Item(s) Purchased?

(not exclusive to Star Wars merch).