cap

I think you mean that with great power come high utility bills.

Judge said:

Obi-Wan says the force has an influence on the weak minded, and I don't think Luke is weak minded.

I don’t know what this is in response to.  Are you under the impression that I or anybody else suggested that Luke could be subjected to a Jedi mind trick?  If that’s what you got out of my original post, it’s not what I meant.

Let me try to explain.  Suppose Obi-Wan needed Luke’s help on the mission to Alderaan, and believed the fate of the entire galaxy depended on Luke going on the mission.  Furthermore, Luke was refusing to go on the mission because of his perceived obligation to Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.  With the fate of the galaxy at stake, would it be possible for a Jedi like Obi-Wan to make an anonymous tip to the stormtroopers in order to eliminate Owen and Beru from the picture and thereby secure Luke’s participation in the mission?

In the Jedi code, can the ends justify the means?

At least sometimes they can. For example, Qui-Gonn uses a mind trick to steal a bongo and telekinesis to cheat at gambling (with the chance cube).

How far does this go? I’m wondering…

Luke: Alderaan? I’m not going to Alderaan. I’ve got to go home. It’s late, I’m in for it as it is.

Obi-Wan: I need your help, Luke. She needs your help. I’m getting too old for this sort of thing.

Luke: I can’t get involved! I’ve got work to do! It’s not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there’s nothing I can do about it right now. It’s such a long way from here.

Obi-Wan: That’s your uncle talking.

Luke: Oh God, my uncle. How am I ever going to explain this?

Obi-Wan: Learn about the Force, Luke.

Luke: Look, I can take you as far as Anchorhead. You can get a transport there to Mos Eisley or wherever you’re going.

Obi-Wan: You must do what you feel is right, of course. [sits, thinks for a moment] Excuse me for a moment, I have to, uh… go to the bathroom. [slips away, makes an anonymous phone call] Hello, stormtroopers? I have some information on where you might be able to find certain droids you may be looking for…

Is it possible? If sufficiently desperate, could a Jedi do such a thing?

BmB said:

I think you are ascribing too much compassion to the dark lord of the sith here.

Considering the last they saw of each other I'm sure he would have tried to take revenge, then scoop up the boy and train him for the dark side to help him overthrow the Emperor. Had he known.

Not so much compassion as obsession.

I know that what I'm suggesting isn’t what Lucas intended and isn’t consistent with the EU, but it would make sense to me.

What drove Anakin to the Dark Side in the first place was his obsession to protect Padmé. When Padmé dies giving birth to his son, I can easily see that obsession being transferred to Luke. So he becomes obsessed with protecting Luke.

Logically, there are four possible outcomes for Luke:

(1) Luke learns the Force, uses it for good, becomes a Jedi and fights against the Empire.

(2) Luke learns the Force, uses it for evil, succumbs to the Dark Side, and becomes a creature like his father who knows nothing but rage.

(3) Luke doesn't learn the Force, and lives the life of an ordinary man.

(4) Luke dies.

Vader wants to protect Luke the way he wanted to protect Padmé, so (3) is by far the preferred outcome. He allows Luke to live with the Larses, and he allows Obi-Wan to watch over him (but not to get too close to him).  Obi-Wan also wants Luke to be OK, so he watches over Luke from a distance as a “crazy old hermit,” but doesn’t befriend Luke lest Luke learn about and become too interested in the Force, and thereby invite the attentions of Vader and Palpatine.

Then the events of ANH occur.  Obi-Wan decides to teach Luke about the Force.  He knows that by doing so he is putting Luke in great danger, but does it because the galaxy needs him.

Outcome (3) having been eliminated, outcomes (1), (2), and (4) remain as possibilities.  Vader, because of his loyalty to the Emperor / Empire / Sith / Dark Side / self, rules out (1), leaving only (2) and (4) as acceptable outcomes, and (2) preferred to (4).  This is when Vader determines that he must turn Luke or, failing to turn him, destroy him.

ChainsawAsh said:

Now that's a good idea ...

You look like you’re absolutely shocked that I had a good idea.

Time is running out on the Rebels. Antilles, upcourt to Skywalker, he’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer....  Good!  It’s good!  The rebels win on the sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker!  Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

I had a thought about the proton torpedoes.  It would be a relatively minor change, but I think it would be really cool.

In the current version, when Luke fires the fateful shot, we see two glowing pink things with glowing tails fly down the trench until they are above the exhaust port and then drop in.  It looks like a pair of guided missiles.  During the briefing a whiny pilot complains about the difficulty of the shot, but we have to take his word for it.  There’s nothing in the visuals that conveys the difficulty of the shot.

Now imagine that proton torpedoes are neither guided nor powered, so their trajectories are purely ballistic.  Then we’re talking about shooting a ball into a two-meter basketball hoop from half a mile out at a hundred miles an hour — a feat that would be humanly impossible without the aid of a targeting computer.

I think it would be neat to change the visual effect so that Luke’s shot (and Red Leader’s shot earlier in the battle) appears as a single spherical object following a parabolic trajectory.  Could that be done?

Octorox said:

How do you even define bestiality in a universe with multiple sentient species? Is getting it on with a Twilek bestiality or just getting it on with a Ronto?

LOL.

In the Star Wars universe, can the various sentient species interbreed like they do in Star Trek?  I’d love to see that half-Rodian half-Wookiee kid.  Maybe Adywan could put her in one of the films.

The Star Wars Holiday Special: Revisited

TV's Frink said:

cap said:

[*] Note: Reportedly, Jedi are allowed to have sex, but not to conceive children.  It is established that accidental pregnancies can happen, even to Jedi, so if Jedi are forbidden to conceive children then they clearly must not be told to rely on fallible birth control.

I don't want to get into specifics, but...couldn't they just use the force for birth control?

Evidently not, unless Anakin got Padmé pregnant on purpose.  Considering how upset Padmé was upon discovering that she was pregnant, he would have to have done so without her knowledge or consent.  I.e., there are two possibilities:

1) Force-as-birth-control is not completely reliable, and the pregnancy was an accident.

2) Anakin wanted Padmé to get pregnant and tricked her into it with the Jedi equivalent of poking a hole in the condom.

Octorox said:

cap said:

Octorox said:

I always saw the Jedi as religious figures, like Priests or Monks, that lead a very specific lifestyle not everyone is cut out for.

And, of course, kids are locked into this lifestyle when they are far too young to make such decisions for themselves.  Anakin, at nine years old, was considered “too old” to enter the lifestyle.

The more I think about it, the more Anakin’s “From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!” makes sense.

wow, never thought about that. But I can see how it might be easier if it's all you've ever known

I wonder if Vader talked to the younglings before killing them.

“If you become Jedi, you will live your whole lives without ever falling in love, without having children, without getting laid[*], and without any personal possessions other than your lightsaber.  Trust me, this is better for you.”

[*] Note: Reportedly, Jedi are allowed to have sex, but not to conceive children.  It is established that accidental pregnancies can happen, even to Jedi, so if Jedi are forbidden to conceive children then they clearly must not be told to rely on fallible birth control.  Therefore we can only conclude that the sex that Jedi are permitted to have consists of pedophilia, necrophilia, bestiality, and homosexuality.  (And no, I'm not drawing a moral equivalence between homosexuality and the others.)

Ric Olie said:

It sucks.

Master of the obvious as always.

Vaderisnothayden said:

Moth3r said:

I've always thought of force sensitivity as something anyone can develop with training, but some are naturally stronger than others (and this strength is hereditary).

The ban on marriage is a prequel idea; I don't really pay much attention to that.

I think early on force sensitivity was treated as something anyone could develop, but I think for a long while the idea has been that some people are born as force sensitives and those who are not just don't have it.

No question about that.  According to the PT, Force sensitivity is all about midichlorians.  If you’re born without the midichlorians, you can’t use the Force, and that’s that.

Octorox said:

I always saw the Jedi as religious figures, like Priests or Monks, that lead a very specific lifestyle not everyone is cut out for.

And, of course, kids are locked into this lifestyle when they are far too young to make such decisions for themselves.  Anakin, at nine years old, was considered “too old” to enter the lifestyle.

The more I think about it, the more Anakin’s “From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!” makes sense.

About Lucas’s “sex is allowed but love is forbidden” idea, another thing I should mention, in the same spirit as Yoda’s “fear leads to anger leads to hate leads to suffering” teaching, is that sex can lead to love.  Many are the happy couples whose relationship began as something purely sexual.

My wife and I are one such couple.  I first got together with her only because I wanted to get laid.  It was about a month after our sexual relationship began that I first told her I loved her — I was the first to say it — and to be honest I didn’t really mean it at the time.  It was quite a long time before we realized that we truly, deeply loved each other and wanted to spend the rest of our lives together.

If love can lead to the Dark Side, then sex must also be regarded as dangerous.  That is, if anything about this were supposed to make sense.  I suppose that in Lucas’s mind it does somehow make sense, but if so, he’s completely out of touch with reality.

Octorox said:

I don't think Jedi should have sex because, again, they are supposed to be totally selfless, they ARE the light side of the force, sex is a loving bond between two people, Jedi are supposed to equally distribute their love to all life through the force. Again, my interpretation.

It’s not a completely unreasonable position.  Jor-El said something similar to Superman.

Vaderisnothayden said:

I don't think the jedi are supposed to get women pregnant. I think in some EU thing some jedi got disciplined by the order for getting a woman pregnant. 

I'm still glad he let them have sex, despite the unpleasant implications.

Is that what they teach the padawans?  “It’s okay and perfectly normal to have sex, but if the birth control fails you’re in BIG FUCKING TROUBLE!”  Please forgive the pun.

SilverWook said:

Falling in love is a no-no, but cheap one night stands with hot alien chicks is okay? Wow!

The “no attachments” rule also implies that, while getting the hot alien chick pregnant is okay, sticking around and caring for the resulting child is a no-no.

What’s up with all those book burners getting all bent out of shape over Harry Potter but not this sick shit from Lucas?

I can’t wait ’til Adywan gets to the prequels.  He’ll give us six hours of nails scraping on a chalkboard, and it will rightfully be hailed as a huge improvement.

TheBoost said:

I imagine that being a Jedi is a calling, not a job you retire from.

Apparently you’re right.  According to the Dooku article on Wookieepedia, 

Dooku's abrupt departure surprised and disturbed the Jedi Order. As a Jedi Master who had voluntarily resigned his commission, Dooku became part of the group later known as the Lost Twenty. In over two thousand years, only nineteen other Jedi Masters had walked away from the Order.

Davnes007 said:

Just because you can't marry, doesn't mean you can't be with women.

True enough.  I imagine the Jedi mind trick makes it pretty easy to get laid.

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. And getting laid.  Never for attack.”

Another thought: do Jedi typically serve until they’re old geezers like Yoda, or do most of them at some point retire, marry, and live as ordinary citizens?  This isn’t addressed in the films, but I imagine it is in the EU.

Force sensitivity is an inherited trait.

So of the people with the greatest potential to become Jedi, most would be the offspring of Jedi... except that Jedi are forbidden to marry, and presumably to reproduce.

Do the Jedi want to limit the power of future generations of the Jedi order?  Why do they limit their own growth this way?

BmB said:

The problem is if Vader had found Obi-Wan he'd prolly have tried to take revenge on him no?

Not necessarily.

First of all, as I said above, if Vader cares about his son's welfare — which, despite being a Sith Lord, I believe he does — there is some value to letting Obi-Wan live.

Second of all, how much more revenge does he need?  The Jedi have been wiped out.  Vader himself personally slaughtered all the younglings at the temple, and Obi-Wan was no doubt close to many of them.  The once great Jedi Master is now damned to live out the rest of his life as a sad old hermit on this pathetic rock called Tattooine.  Isn't that enough?

Ripplin said:

What if Michael and J.J. made a movie together? They could call it "Seizurefest" or something, cuz it would be one lens flare after another in rapid succession! ;) In fact, since nothing else would be visible, there wouldn't even be any need to hire actors!

Michael Bay stopped hiring actors a long time ago.  He hires people like Shia LeBeouf and Megan Fox instead.

cap said:

I’m pretty certain the “pasting together phonemes” technique is not going to work, but if you want to hear what has come of my quixotic attempt, http://members.cox.net/capologist/newenemy2.wav

 

Despite the certain futility of this, I'd like to keep trying.  I need some help with things I can't do with the tools I have, if it can be done at all.

I need the dialog from the 2004 DVD with both the musical score and Darth Vader's breathing completely removed from Palpatine's speech.

I’m pretty certain the “pasting together phonemes” technique is not going to work, but if you want to hear what has come of my quixotic attempt, http://members.cox.net/capologist/newenemy2.wav

corellian77 said:

Ric Olie said:

jedi93 said:

EMPEROR: The force is strong with him. The son of Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala must not be come a Jedi.

Now we're talking. 

LOL... I love you Ric Olie (in a manly, non-sexual way, of course).

EMPEROR: The Force is strong with him.  The son of Anakin Skywalker and Padmé Amidala, grandson of Shmi Skywalker, nephew of Owen Lars, and distant neighbor of the late Obi-Wan Kenobi, whom he knew as Ben, must not become a Jedi, which is a person who is well trained and strong in the Force and opposes the Sith, which is what you and I are.

Monroville said:

 

On another note, I can't say I ever cared for the Vader line: "How is that possible?"  I liked how in the original dialogue Vader is making statements to counter the Emperor's, as well as talking the Emperor into doing things his way.  The "How is it possible?" line kinda comes across as Vader is a little stupid.. you know, like how he is in JEDI.

I hate the line too, but here is a take that might make it a little easier to stomach.

cap said:

 

Oh, I get it now.

 

EMPEROR: We have a new enemy, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

VADER: How is that possible? Anakin Skywalker has no offspring.

VADER: How is that possible? He was living on the planet farthest from the bright center of the universe, Owen and Beru were keeping him down on the farm, he knew nothing of the world around him and had never even heard of the Force. Then within two days he had come out of nowhere, showcased Jedi skills, and forever changed the course of Galactic history by DESTROYING THE FREAKING DEATH STAR!!! How the fuck did that happen to us?!!

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.

VADER: He’s just a boy. Obi-wan can no longer help him.

 

See? Makes much more sense now.