cap

savmagoett said:

About this matte we talked a while ago:

After an analysis I made (that I will post on my thread after the Falcon issue) I concluded that the transports scale is really wrong, the right transport in the background is missing its cockpit/pod and its landing gear doen't touch the ground.

I've done a mock-up to see if it's possible to solve the problems without actually changing the size of the matte:

Nice!

And I always felt that this scene was awfully quiet for an evacuation, it's especially true with this background guys now scaled down, so here's another one with more things going on:

 

Where would the “more things going on” come from?  Shoot new footage?  Just how sophisticated is this operation?

Erikstormtrooper said:

cap said:

Nobody has responded to my question about a TR of ANH-77 (or ANH-79).  Does one exist?

Not yet. Adywan has said he'll be making a TR after he finishes ESB-R.

Great!

Has he said whether it will be 77, 79, or both?

I think it would be straightforward to provide both through seamless branching.  The only difference is the opening crawl, right?

Alexrd said:

cap said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The reason for preserving the original movies is not because they were "better" than the more recent versions (either George's or Ady's).  The reason is because they are a part of film history, and represent the state-of-the-art for special effects (and other things such as editing) that won the relevent Academy Awards in 1977.

Also, as much as I enjoy Adywan's edit, I still prefer the original.

I understand that, and it’s why I refer not only to the Revisited edits but also to Ady’s Theatrical Reconstruction of ESB, which is an almost-exact reproduction of the original film.  It’s also why I ask whether there’s a Theatrical Reconstruction of ANH.

There should be a proper release of the originals, ideally in hi-def.  We are in agreement that there’s no legitimate excuse for not doing it and Lucas is being an asshole.  But the TR comes pretty darn close to recreating what Lucas chooses to keep from us, at least in the case of ESB.

I don't think so. As the guy who wrote the article, you are hitting a strawman. People may like the GL Special Editions better than the originals, or Adywan's edits better than both, but that's not the problem. And Adywan's edit is way more different than the original than the Special Edition of TESB. Don't get me wrong, I love Adywan's work so far.

The Theatrical Reconstruction is not the same thing as the Revisited edit.  The TR is almost exactly a reproduction of ESB-1980.

Somebody correct me if I’m wrong about how close the TR is to ESB-80.

Nobody has responded to my question about a TR of ANH-77 (or ANH-79).  Does one exist?

Cristal Connors: I've had dog food.

Nomi Malone: You have?

Cristal Connors: Mmm-hmmm. Long time ago. Doggy Chow... I used to love Doggy Chow.

Nomi Malone: I used to love Doggy Chow, too!

From one of the most lambasted films of all time, which still makes it a heck of a lot better than the PT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPtwBQpDl08

Playing it back on a better sound system, I notice that “new enemy: Young Skywalker” doesn’t sound all that clean.  Is it because “young” was lifted from the source separate from the surrounding words, or because the video shifts from Hoth to Cloud City?

Is the current state of the Emperor scene available, or is this trailer the only place to hear the dialog?

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

The reason for preserving the original movies is not because they were "better" than the more recent versions (either George's or Ady's).  The reason is because they are a part of film history, and represent the state-of-the-art for special effects (and other things such as editing) that won the relevent Academy Awards in 1977.

Also, as much as I enjoy Adywan's edit, I still prefer the original.

I understand that, and it’s why I refer not only to the Revisited edits but also to Ady’s Theatrical Reconstruction of ESB, which is an almost-exact reproduction of the original film.  It’s also why I ask whether there’s a Theatrical Reconstruction of ANH.

There should be a proper release of the originals, ideally in hi-def.  We are in agreement that there’s no legitimate excuse for not doing it and Lucas is being an asshole.  But the TR comes pretty darn close to recreating what Lucas chooses to keep from us, at least in the case of ESB.

Nobody calls me Marty McFly.  Nobody.

TheBoost said:

Except by stealing the original versions of the films from those that loved them.

Fortunately, Adywan has given us back the (almost exactly) original version of ESB and an (almost universally seen as) improved version of ANH, with an improved version of ESB on the way. (Is there a “theatrical reconstruction” for ANH like there is for ESB?) ROTJ is a few years away, but it will get here — in 1080p, no less.

It will be easier to forgive Lucas as the damage he does is undone by Ady. Ady deserves to be famous for his extraordinary contributions to recovery of this cultural treasure. Unfortunately, copyright issues will keep his work from reaching the large audience it deserves and who deserve it, and will keep the film industry and cultural preservation organizations from ever recognizing it. :-(

THANK YOU!

Aw, crap.

I found a .dlc and downloaded 42 .rar files.  Turns out they’re encrypted and I don’t know the password.  I don’t remember seeing anything about a password, and the site where I found the .dlc is down.

A while ago there was discussion of dissatisfaction with the Emperor referring to Luke as “Young Skywalker” and some suggested in might be possible to make him say “Luke Skywalker” as Clive Revill did in 1980.  What has become of that?  Did it turn out to be possible, impossible, or yet to be determined?

Also, will Ian McDiarmid’s face be visible in that scene, or hidden by his cloak hood like the Darth Sidious hologram in TPM?

captainsolo said:

The 3D release is the last straw for me.

3D may prove to be a good thing for the PT since the eye candy is easily the best thing they have to offer in the first place. Imagine AOTC’s speeder chase in 3D. I’m looking forward to seeing that.

As for the OT, whatever. All I want from Lucas is a proper release of the original versions. I don’t like what Lucas did with the SE’s and I’m not interested in whatever further changes he makes to them. If he wants to convert them to 3D he’s welcome to do so. I’m not going to go to the theaters and spend the money to see them. I’d rather stay home and watch Revisited.

I don’t know whether this information is available to the public or whether it’s any of my business, but I’m curious: how does Adywan do this and support a family at the same time?  Unless I misunderstood, the end credits of ANH:R state that he has a wife and children who live with him.

Does he hold a full time job and do Revisited in his spare time?  Is he independently wealthy?  Does his wife do all the work of financially supporting the family and taking care of their children while he works on Revisited?

I too always found them difficult to open from the inside.

This sounds great.  I’d love to see it.  I don’t know where to find it.

EDIT: Found it! :-)

zombie84 said:

On the contrary, I've thought about it so much that I even wrote an article about it.

I stand corrected and apologize. You clearly have considered the question of episode order.

But how much have you considered the idea of something like 4-5-1-2-3-6? Have you ever tried it? Your article indicates that you have considered 4-5-6-1-2-3, 1-2-3-4-5-6, and possibly “The PT and OT are independent works and which one you watch first makes about as much difference as whether you watch Raiders of the Lost Ark before or after On Golden Pond.”

I don’t expect a point-by-point response to the many arguments I made in favor of 4-5-1-2-3-6, but I would appreciate it if you’d go to the other thread, read those points, and give them fair and open-minded consideration before dismissing my conclusion. The several people who posted in that thread after reading my points unanimously considered them convincing despite initial skepticism of my conclusion.

Well there you go. It's ultimately preference. Personally, my preference is 4-5-6, and then maybe 3 if I am in the mood. Based on "logic and experience", as you put it, there is no order that includes the prequels that is fully satisfying simply because they are poor films and if you like 4 and 5, which we both agree one should start with, it is very likely that you will dislike some or all of the prequel films.

That’s certainly a reasonable position. I said above, “Depending on how you feel about the PT, the best order is either 4-5-1-2-3-6 or 4-5-6-done.”

I believe the prequels are best redeemed by using ADM’s edits and placing them between ESB and ROTJ. You seem to consider them absolutely unredeemable, in which case I’m not sure it matters where you put them in the viewing order; the only reasonable choice is to exclude them from the viewing order altogether.

I’m proceeding from the assumption, as posed by HotRod in the OP, that the viewer intends to watch all six films and is deciding the order in which to watch them. Given that question, there are three reasonable candidates: 1-2-3-4-5-6, 4-5-6-1-2-3, and 4-5-1-2-3-6.

Lucas advocates 1-2-3-4-5-6 but you and I both dislike that intensely. That leaves us deciding between 4-5-6-1-2-3 and 4-5-1-2-3-6.  For a number of reasons I prefer 4-5-1-2-3-6 to 4-5-6-1-2-3.  The best argument for 4-5-6-1-2-3 seems to be that you can commit suicide after 6 and thereby spare yourself from the PT.

That's a main reason why 1-2-3-4-5-6 falls on its ass

I don’t think that’s relevant, as no one in this discussion is advocating that order.

there's too huge a disconnect

I believe there’s also a huge disconnect between 4-5 and 6. ROTJ was made long before the PT and doesn’t have the same quality of visual effects or ubiquity of CGI. Despite that, I believe that in many ways — some of which I listed in the other thread — the storytelling in ROTJ is more consistent with the PT than with 4-5.

Bingowings said:

There must be a way of altering the PT to keep all the surprises intact.

There’s a very simple way of doing that: put it after Ep5.  (Or after Ep6, but I prefer it after Ep5.)  I can’t image any way to edit ROTS to preserve the Anakin = Vader surprise in ESB if ROTS is seen before ESB.

TPM just isn’t a very good introduction to the Saga, partly because it just isn’t a very good film.  ANH does a much better job of “grabbing” the viewer and making him care what happened a long time ago in that galaxy far, far away.

ANH is by a wide margin the best way to start the viewing experience and ROTJ the best way to end it.  The best way to watch is 4-5-1-2-3-6 or 4-5-6-done, depending on whether you consider the PT to be worthwhile.

If you do want to watch the PT, it works best between Ep5 and Ep6.  Anakin’s descent into darkness is more compelling if you have seen the end result of the fall but haven’t seen him break free of it.  The rise of the Empire is more compelling if you have seen the power and brutality of the Empire but haven’t seen its imminent demise.

First: Marketing was intended only to sell tickets, not to provide insight into Lucas’s artistic vision.  It’s irrelevant to this discussion of Lucas’s intended viewing order.  Why did you bring it up?

Second: OK, I believe you.  I was going by IMDB, which may be mistaken.  Where is it on the DVD?  Not that the presence or absence of “is” is material to the discussion.  Before ROTS was released, the Saga had not been completed.  With the release of ROTS, the Saga was complete.  That has nothing to do with Lucas’s intended viewing order.

Third: Lucas can release the 3D versions of the films however he darn well pleases.  The fact that he has chosen to do so in 1-2-3-4-5-6 order is a pretty strong signal that he believes the films are best watched in that order.  He has stated the same in interviews.  Now it’s possible that his views on the subject have changed over time and that ROTS was intended as a conclusion when he made it, but absent evidence of such a change of opinion, there is no evidence that ROTS was intended as a conclusion.  ROTJ clearly was.

Not that Lucas’s intent is the end-all-be-all of the discussion.  Ultimately, what matters is what works dramatically.  IMO, ROTJ makes a much more satisfying conclusion to the series than ROTS does.

First: That was marketing.

Second: The line was actually “The Saga is Complete.”  Which was true, regardless of viewing order.  Before ROTS was released, only episodes 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 existed, so the Saga was incomplete.  With the release of ROTS, all six episodes were available, so the Saga was complete.

Third: The tagline for TPM was “The Saga Begins.”  If “The Saga is Complete” signals that ROTS was intended to be watched last then “The Saga Begins” must also signal that TPM was intended to be watched first.  How are you going to make that consistent?  I don’t think you can.

TV's Frink said:

I've been thinking quite a bit about how to present Star Wars to my daughter, although she is still several years away from watching it.  I always assumed we would go 4-5-6-1-2-3, but now I've got to consider this 4-5-1-2-3-6 proposal instead...

Another point to consider, particularly for younger viewers, is the note on which you want to end.

In ROTJ, Anakin throws off the yoke of darkness and reemerges as a good person.  The Emperor is defeated.  There is a big celebration with music, dancing, and fireworks, and the heroes pose for a group photo as a father and teachers look on with pride.  It’s a cathartic and uplifting conclusion to the series and belongs at the end, not buried in the middle.

By contrast, ROTS ends on a sad note in the middle of the story, a conclusion that is likely to be unsatisfying to younger viewers, and a less fitting conclusion than ROTJ even for older viewers.

Lucas has stated that his intent is that the episodes be watched in the order 1-2-3-4-5-6.  (This is also attested to by the fact that the upcoming 3D versions will be released in that order.)  ROTS was never intended as a conclusion the way ROTJ was.

zombie84 said:

Yeah, I'll have to disagree with that.

Yes, I knew you would.  I’m willing to bet that you haven’t spent a heck of a lot of time thinking about it, you haven’t looked at the other thread in which it is discussed and thoughtfully considered the points made there, and — perhaps most significantly — you haven’t tried it.

I have watched 1-2-3-4-5-6, 4-5-6-1-2-3, and 4-5-1-2-3-6 more than once each, and in I have found that 4-5-1-2-3-6 is the best experience.  In the other thread I listed a number of ways in which this order improves the experience, and there are more that I didn’t list there.

There is no narrative information in ROTJ that is necessary in order to understand the prequel trilogy, and in many ways it plays better with ROTJ seen after the prequel trilogy.  FWIW, Lucas is on record stating that his intent is that they be viewed in the order 1-2-3-4-5-6, despite the 4-5-6-1-2-3 release order.

zombie84 said:

No, but it's a pretty solid endorsement of why the films play so well when watched in release order.

That’s true, and the release order of 4-5-6-1-2-3 is not horrible, but it also isn’t (to borrow a phrase from PCSitCH) “the best way to go.”  4-5-1-2-3-6 is significantly better.  This is admittedly a subjective conclusion, but it is based on both logic and experience, which ought to count for something.

Put Captain Solo in the Cargo Hold said:

Exactly as they were released is the best way to go. That's how Star Wars became a hit, that's how remains such a respected cultural icon, that's how it was made. It's a story that begins in 1977 and ends in 2005, not the other way around. 

That’s hardly a convincing argument that an alternative ordering can’t improve the experience.

ChainsawAsh said:

Why GOUT for ESB when Adywan has released a wonderful, high-quality 1980 theatrical reconstruction DVD?

I was unaware of that.  (I haven’t been around here much lately.)  There’s no denying the incredible quality of Adywan’s work.  Although I haven’t seen the reconstruction to which you refer, Adywan’s name on it is enough for me to recommend it over GOUT.  Thanks for pointing it out.

Please see the 4-5-1-2-3-6 discussion here.  It is the order I recommend for reasons there discussed.  My ideas were well received by other posters to the thread.

I believe that 4-5-1-2-3-6 is clearly superior to 4-5-6-1-2-3 and very far superior to 1-2-3-4-5-6.  Depending on how you feel about the PT, the best order is either 4-5-1-2-3-6 or 4-5-6-done.

As for which versions, [strike:I recommend Revisited for ANH, GOU for ESB, ADigitalMan’s edits for the PT, and GOUT for ROTJ.] I recommend Revisited for ANH and ADigitalMan’s edits for the PT.  For ESB and ROTJ, see ChainsawAsh’s post immediately below this one.

[strike:If the non-anamorphic GOUT looks bad on your system, you might want to see if you can find OCPmovie’s Classic Editions.  From what I understand they’re better-quality versions of the GOUT.  I don’t know whether they’re still available.  I don’t have them and there are no links to them in the usual places.]

EDIT #1: Incorporated ChainsawAsh’s recommendations regarding ESB and ROTJ versions.

EDIT #2: I can’t get strikethrough to work.  Is there a trick?