brash_stryker

kristarwars said:

brash_stryker said:

kristarwars said:

No, but this is the era of digital technology, CGI, and there's a couple little somethings called stand-ins and stunt doubles.  It could be done, easily.

No, it couldn't. 

Unless you think CGI has advanced far enough to make a convincingly realistic and expressive dancing Carrie Fisher, then that's a load of crap. You can only get away with so much with cutaways and body doubles. The entirely new aspects of the scene as you've written it involves seeing Leia's face and expressions.

They've done it like a million times from way back in the days of The Crow and up through Tron: Legacy: taking a current star (or actor/stunt double/etc.) and superimposing another (and sometimes younger) face on them.  Even Episode I had Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson's faces superimposed over their stunt doubles for a couple of shots.  I'm sorry, but they can totally do it.

Yes they did. In fast moving action sequences.

Not in close-up expressive moments.

kristarwars said:

No, but this is the era of digital technology, CGI, and there's a couple little somethings called stand-ins and stunt doubles.  It could be done, easily.

No, it couldn't. 

Unless you think CGI has advanced far enough to make a convincingly realistic and expressive dancing Carrie Fisher, then that's a load of crap. You can only get away with so much with cutaways and body doubles. The entirely new aspects of the scene as you've written it involves seeing Leia's face and expressions.

Are we going to get some revolutionary new youthifying treatment for Carrie Fisher so we can get all this new footage?

Bingowings said:

it Jar-Jars noticeably.

The Oxford English Dictionary says:

 

Jar-Jar

(jär jär)

Noun:

• Jar-Jar Binks - An obnoxious computer generated character who appears in the film Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.
• Any person who acts in a stupid, clumsy or obnoxious manner.
• Something that challenges a person's Suspension of Disbelief.

 

Verb:

• To lose one's balance and collapse.
• To act in a stupid, clumsy or obnoxious manner.
• To completely shatter the illusion of realism and consequently diminish viewer immersion by introducing fake or implausible elements. 

You do know that Lucas's continuity is irrelevant right? Ady is editing the prequels to suit the originals. I highly doubt he'll have the child murdering in there.

Lord Haseo said:

 

I see your point except for removing Anakin's sith eyes in ROTS. His deeds in ROTS were truly evil.....I mean he slaughtered children.....Ady should keep them from Anakin seeing as the fact that he slaughtered a room full of children. I'm not into the EU so I might be wrong, but it seems like Dooku became a Sith Lord simply for the power. He doesn't do anything truly evil in AOTC and ROTS. Also it seems like the Sith eyes disappear depending on your level of hatred/evil at the moment. In ROTJ after Anakin destroys the Palpatine and his mask is removed his eyes are normal so by this logic it is entirely possible for Dooku to have normal eyes in the scenes that he is in. Also Palpatine all through the prequels up until he tries to electrocute Windu had normal eyes as well.   

It was the PT that introduced the whole 'Sith Eyes' thing. It was never a thing during the OT (except arguably a bit with Palpatine who represents the epitome of pure evil). Why did we have to have this visual indicator that a character is evil all of sudden? Might it have had something to do with George's inability to write a convincing character? Rather than make Darth Maul evil via his actions or dialogue, he made him seem evil in the most superficial way - his appearance. Evil eyes, devilish make up. Job done, apparently.

I find the whole concept of the evil eyes when you turn evil quite cheap, except, as stated, when it comes to the Emperor (whose eyes were more subtle anyway). He just exudes pure evil and doesn't seem to represent the "norm" at all. When I first saw ROTJ, I saw a man who'd pushed the Dark Side to its absolute limits. He was an aberration; more evil and despicable than any Dark Jedi had been before him, and this exposure had taken its toll on his body. Having every Sith in the prequels have these same traits cheapens the story his appearance tells. He becomes just another bad guy.

Though, the force lightning rebound completely ruined all that anyway.

I can never keep track of these things, but who IS Rogue 2? And is it conceivable that he could be there (or added there) if the new line can't be made to work for whatever reason?

It could be a cultural/religious thing. You wouldn't ask a Sikh why he was still wearing a Turban 36 years later. Or at least I hope you wouldn't :p

Having a mysterious group/cult with an agenda (that turns out to be aiding Palpatine) has the potential to work really well, even if it is subtle and in the background.

We might assume they're the "Sith" race, of which Palpatine is also a member (this would mean pushing the EU aside, of course). We might see them as an influential secret society working in the shadows, surreptitiously manipulating Palpatine's rise to power from behind the scenes, like a galactic Freemasons crossed with something out of the mind of David Icke.

Actually, it might suffice to insert them into the background in particular significant scenes that involve Palps. If you could go back through the Prequels and discover more scenes like the above picture where they're seen watching in the background, it would be a cool easter egg that people might not spot in their first viewing. I'm thinking along the lines of the G-Man in the Half Life series - a sinister agent of unknown origin who manipulates and watches over the character and no-one knows who he is.

Alternatively, as I'm sure must has been suggested before, have them replace the Neimodians. I remember seeing a mockup of the reverse of this (Neimodians in ROTJ) however with the spirit of Revisited being to change the prequels to match the OT, it might make more sense, especially if it's edited in such a way that the Federation isn't betrayed in ROTS. 

Of course, this idea is another that would require major refilming....

Bingowings said:

The cronies in ROTJ are interesting though.

They are very old and pale like Palpatine and Anakin themselves.

Unlike a lot of the other people the EU crowd obsess over they have a lots of backstory potential.

They have clearly been around for a long time so it would have made sense that they were around in the PT.

It makes more sense than the blue chap and frosty girl.

But Tarkin should have been a major character not a stupid rubber mask worn by a good actor without any speaking lines.

Certainly, though in more of a background role. Perhaps a group of them are staunch supporters of Palpatine and are vocal in their support from their floaty senate platform. This ties in well with them being in a position of power and opulence by ROTJ, though the thought of there being enough senate scenes in an edit for this to even feature makes me shudder a bit. 

I don't think they have a place as Palpatine's right hand men, but that's just my opinion.

darklordoftech said:

Would replacing Moore and Amedda with the ROTJ advisors be preferable?

I don't see any pay off to this personally, as they are superficial background characters. In my opinion, they only serve to convey that the Emperor is surrounded by the pompous and the sycophantic.

He's not the Emperor yet in the prequels. He's still going through his machinations to power. Having them there at this point, in my opinion, would make no sense.

Again, what the Prequels need are compelling, developed characters. Not one dimensional cardboard cut outs that serve no real role. We have an abundance of those already!

darklordoftech said:

Amedda bogs Valorum down in procedure (after Sidious claims to have the Senate bogged down in procedure!), suggests that Palpatine be given emergency powers, and witnesses Sidious use Force Lightning on Yoda. I have concluded that Amedda knows the truth about Palpatine and is helping him.

All of Amedda's interaction that you mention sounds like a big yawn to me. I think the fact that his character has no introduction and we only even know his name from reading supplemental info shows that he's not really interesting enough to warrant this discussion.

I'd go so far as to argue that he's not worth keeping in the film he's IN, let alone added to another.

The politics of the PT have always been a problem regardless, but this monotone voiced blue alien does nothing to make this a good Star Wars movie. He's just insignificant and boring. You say yourself that his most significant action is that he "bogs Valorum down in procedure". That sounds exciting! Is this really what a Star Wars movie should be? 

Now if the politics could be toned down while also given a revamp, that would be an improvement. Imagine a pompous and ambitious military captain using his background and influence as a leader to scare the senatorial masses into sanctioning the deployment of the republic army. That's actual political intrigue and corruption there, unlike what we got in the films. He's scratching Palps' back in order to advance his own career. It establishes his character as ruthless and willing to do almost anything to get what he wants - in other words, the very Tarkin we meet in ANH.

I'm more interested in the possibility of replacing these two in the prequels with more interesting characters, for instance, a certain Captain Tarkin.

Honestly, only one of these characters actually speaks! And when he does it's not to say anything particularly interesting - "Order, we shall have order" and "If only Senator Amidala were here" are the only 2 lines I remember. And both lines are spoken with the same flat boring delivery as everyone else seems to have in the prequels.

You both seem to want to insert them to unify the two trilogies (I'm guessing?). I'd rather do it the other way around. There's nothing even vaguely interesting about them.

darklordoftech said:

Replace Palpatine's ROTJ advisors with Sly Moore and Mas Amedda.

Show what happened to the Empire at the end of ROTJ.

Just curious: have all 6 movies been color-corrected?

I think the ROTJ advisers ought to remain human. We never see any other non humans working for the Empire. I think adding any in would undermine the whole xenophobic, human-only "master race" vibe, which makes the Empire and the Emperor seem as evil as they do.

As for your question, unless Ady has been colour grading other films in secret, then I think the only one he's corrected is the one he's currently fully working on - Empire.

Bingowings said:

 

This is were we have a difference of opinion.

It's a step in the right direction but even dying to save your son doesn't fully redeem even OT Vader.

If there was another episode in 1986 we could have Seb Shaw playing Anakin's ghost guiding his son to where he had done damage and helping him repair it.

Even if Lucas didn't want to do it the EU should have (there was a hint of that in the post-ROTJ Marvel comics before they finally folded).

I don't think it's important that the audience forgives Vader or thinks he's made up for everything. It's only important that he has an arc. A redemption can still be powerful even if you still wouldn't invite them to your Birthday party after.

After all, at this point, it's Luke's story, and in an ideal Prequel edit, it would be Obi Wan's.

The emphasis wouldn't be on Anakin anymore. The audience would be less affronted due to Anakin being a secondary character.

He also wouldn't be doing all these terrible things (or at least he wouldn't be seen blatantly doing them). You can show Vader being evil simply through his allegiance - marching with troopers, giving orders, etc. You don't need to show him gutting little children. Doesn't this make him easier to forgive in ROTJ? We never get the impression in the OT that he's anything more than a henchman. Why does a PT edit need to be any different?

Bingowings said:

 

It's impossible to forgive a mass murdering evil person.

It's possible to forgive a mental ill person who then goes on to work for the evil guys.

The end of the story requires redemption and forgiveness to work.

 

The redemption works just fine in ROTJ pre 1999 when we knew Vader had done terrible things. Why can't it work in an edit where Vader does terrible things?

Bingowings said:

 

Keep it as it is and you are keeping a broken characterisation.

We're on the fan edit forum.....why would we be keeping it as it is? :p

Bingowings said:

If he is unaware what he is doing and genuinely insane

That's actually why it doesn't work for me. You're essentially talking about him being schizophrenic, and in my opinion that cheapens his fall and seduction for me. We don't want Anakin to be good all along and just not being able to help what he initially. We want him to be good, then bad, which adds that weight to his fall and subsequent redemption.

At least, that's how I see it....

Bingowings said:

It would be easier to have Qui-Gon suggest to the council that Vader is already sufficiently trained when Kenobi decides to take on Anakin as his pupil (using the lines directed at Obi-Wan). You could maybe add a shot of a youth either screwing his face up because of being put out by the new arrival or filling with hubris from this swift promotion to Knight.

Either way could lead to the Dark Side.

The slaying of the Tuskens, assassinations of Jedi (currently done by Grievous and the clones following order 66666666) and the Raid on the Temple could then be done by Darth Vader in Anakin's nightmares.

We could see Anakin rush to the Chancellor from Mace (who is genuinely acting above his authority despite being right about the courts being rigged). We could then assume Anakin is killed when Palpatine changes and starts throwing lightening around.

The Anakin/Kenobi duel could edit all visible references to Anakin down to a red saber and Obi-wan narrowly defeating an unseen former pupil.

If the viewer believes the emperor to have killed Anakin, that will undermine the whole "former pupil betraying your father" thing so we'll know something is up as soon as Ben says this blatant lie. Having said this, I love your idea of Qui Gon suggesting Obi's existing apprentice is ready when he takes on Anakin. 

I feel the dissociative fugue idea only works if it's after Anakin's "death", so more like a metaphorical possession when he kills the original Darth i.e. the torch is passed. To have it happen in a 'Tyler Durden' way while the audience is still under the impression he's alive/a good person is a bit of a cop out IMO.

I've been mulling the prequels over (AGAIN!) and trying to conciliate what's possible in editing/reshooting with what we know from the OT pre 1999, and I think I've come up with my most practical idea to date, whilst still keeping the reveal in ESB. It's a combination of existing ideas from myself and other members, most notably Bingowings' dissociative fugue concept - at least he's the first person I remember bringing this up.

Basically, when Obi Wan takes Anakin on as a student (Obi is not a student himself and Qui Gon, if he exists in said edit, is just a fellow Knight), we would have one of the council members make reference to Obi Wan's previous failed student. This could be done through filming new human council members (something the prequels sorely need) or alternatively through redubbing. They could elaborate and say the student turned to the dark side, but "failed" works also. This sets it up from the get go that Obi had an apprentice so we can immediately reference that line in ANH "Was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil" and assume it's this person.

Then when we meet Darth Maul, who either remains nameless or is called Darth VADER. It's revealed through redubbing or creative re-editing of existing dialogue that HE is the failed apprentice. Maul/Vader still kills Qui Gon, Obi still cuts him in half, but we get some kind of hint that he's not dead - whether it's shot of him dragging his torso away after his fall down the shaft or a full on rebuilding scene where you see him get some robot legs attached or even put in the Darth Vader suit. There are a lot of variables to consider and they all depend on resources available when shooting.

In the next film/s, Grievous would be scrapped in favour of Vader in full costume. 

This is the point at which I'm not sure whether it's practical or doable, but Anakin would fight VADER. Footage of Anakin fighting (Dooku, Obi, droids, whoever) would have to be roto'd out and creatively superimposed into footage of costumed Vader swinging his saber (which would require the costumed actor to be fighting thin air).

Obviously, it would be really difficult to get them to appear to interact convincingly so you'd have to weigh up whether it would be better to just film a new Anakin actor (seeing as we're so limited by the Anakins we have anyway). That's more into the realms of a refilming rather than a re-edit with refilmed elements though, so I'll shut up about that for now. 

In the Duel, Vader taunts Anakin with threats that after he's done with him, he'll kill his master and his loved ones. Anakin strikes Vader down in a rage. 

He walks away.

The scene may get a bit 'visiony' like the 'force cave' in ESB. (or change in some way to make it seem surreal, like something isn't quite right)

Anakin turns just in time to see Vader rise up behind him and raise his saber.

We cut away to hear Anakin scream and then silence.

This is the point at which Anakin "dies" and "becomes" Vader, though the viewer doesn't know it at this point.

A first time viewer would think that Vader actually killed Anakin. A viewer who already knows will see it as a force-vision and an allegory all in one. Anakin, in giving into his hate, has taken up the mantle (and costume) of the Dark Lord.

From this point on, we see Vader committing atrocities in costume and no one need be any the wiser....

I've been mulling the prequels over (AGAIN!) and trying to conciliate what's possible in editing/reshooting with what we know from the OT pre 1999, and I think I've come up with my most practical idea to date, whilst still keeping the reveal in ESB. It's a combination of existing ideas from myself and other members, most notably Bingowings' dissociative fugue concept - at least he's the first person I remember bringing this up.

Basically, when Obi Wan takes Anakin on as a student (Obi is not a student himself and Qui Gon, if he exists in said edit, is just a fellow Knight), we would have one of the council members make reference to Obi Wan's previous failed student. This could be done through filming new human council members (something the prequels sorely need) or alternatively through redubbing. They could elaborate and say the student turned to the dark side, but "failed" works also. This sets it up from the get go that Obi had an apprentice so we can immediately reference that line in ANH "Was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil" and assume it's this person.

Then when we meet Darth Maul, who either remains nameless or is called Darth VADER. It's revealed through redubbing or creative re-editing of existing dialogue that HE is the failed apprentice. Maul/Vader still kills Qui Gon, Obi still cuts him in half, but we get some kind of hint that he's not dead - whether it's shot of him dragging his torso away after his fall down the shaft or a full on rebuilding scene where you see him get some robot legs attached or even put in the Darth Vader suit. There are a lot of variables to consider and they all depend on resources available when shooting.

In the next film/s, Grievous would be scrapped in favour of Vader in full costume. 

This is the point at which I'm not sure whether it's practical or doable, but Anakin would fight VADER. Footage of Anakin fighting (Dooku, Obi, droids, whoever) would have to be roto'd out and creatively superimposed into footage of costumed Vader swinging his saber (which would require the costumed actor to be fighting thin air).

Obviously, it would be really difficult to get them to appear to interact convincingly so you'd have to weigh up whether it would be better to just film a new Anakin actor (seeing as we're so limited by the Anakins we have anyway). That's more into the realms of a refilming rather than a re-edit with refilmed elements though, so I'll shut up about that for now. 

In the Duel, Vader taunts Anakin with threats that after he's done with him, he'll kill his master and his loved ones. Anakin strikes Vader down in a rage. 

He walks away.

The scene may get a bit 'visiony' like the 'force cave' in ESB. (or change in some way to make it seem surreal, like something isn't quite right)

Anakin turns just in time to see Vader rise up behind him and raise his saber.

We cut away to hear Anakin scream and then silence.

This is the point at which Anakin "dies" and "becomes" Vader, though the viewer doesn't know it at this point.

A first time viewer would think that Vader actually killed Anakin. A viewer who already knows will see it as a force-vision and an allegory all in one. Anakin, in giving into his hate, has taken up the mantle (and costume) of the Dark Lord.

From this point on, we see Vader committing atrocities in costume and no one need be any the wiser....

I think READY my shuttle sounds better than PREPARE. 

I doubt Ady will want to change it in any case.

LOL

I've just edited my last post after finding a clip I thought had been deleted.

Unfortunately not. Even in its current state, it's a lot more radical than most prequel edits out there, but I still won't release it like that, simply because even with all the changes I've made, I still wouldn't watch it myself.

Episode 2 is definitely the toughest of the prequels to crack. I dip back into it occasionally when I have time (which isn't that often anymore) but every time I do it's quite disheartening. This film is broken on a fundamental story level. (I must sound like a broken record saying that, but it's true).

So this won't be an "update" as such, but rather a recap of what some will have already seen, but other might have missed.

I've tried to fix Anakin and Obi's relationship somewhat. For instance, in the scene we're introduced to them. To cut all the whining out whilst still leaving some genuine "friend" moments is a challenge. The current version of that scene is here: - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv1Zfh244dI

Though some may notice that I've had to reverse a certain shot to get a proper smile from Obi (while he faces the same direction as the previous shot). This means that the elevator is travelling down just for that shot. 

Anyone with experience with Visual Effects might be able to correct these issues. As I've said all along, my edit is more a proof of concept on a pure story and character level. 

I may even end up releasing it with text saying things like "This effect here". "New shot here". "Redubbed dialogue" etc. 

I have toyed with some effects work, working purely with tutorials, however I was really out of my depth. This was one shot I tried tinkering with, which would explain why Boba Fett has a reputation for disintegrations. It was next to impossible to rotoscope this shot as the scene is so damn dark I couldn't see the outlines of the characters!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHHmM1nkjMA

Ultimately, the shot as it is isn't really long enough to showcase the effect. Again, someone who's an effects wizard might be able to create a whole new shot from existing elements. 

Here's one of my attempts at giving the speeder chase a more OT feel. This is a very rough early version of this scene and things like the end of the music not transitioning out properly have been fixed long ago. Also the music is louder than it should be just to see whether the music fits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK6iTx3it0c

I've rearranged the order of the movie, as showcased in this particular clip. I'm quite proud of Yoda's dialogue edit, but ultimately I don't think Yoda should be in the prequels AT ALL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49L3xzkZ3Pc

I've gone to great lengths trying to make Dooku a more sympathetic character, as seen in these 2 videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onooMQABtcg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opslWlOgAbA

Choosing alternative music has been a lot of fun, and there's a particular track from the KOTOR 2 game that fitted perfectly for both the Clone reveal on Kamino and the Clone army at the end. Both tracks are variations of the same theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL9_JOrm0o8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eVNlF3wpdI