adywan

Now this is good 😉

https://imgur.com/a/6smO9

https://nerdist.com/the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-mo-cap-performance-canto-bight/

Valheru_84 said:

adywan said:

And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1

And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.

Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.

I definitely don’t deny that such a demographic exists and it makes it a mine field to navigate if such issues do actually exist in a movie and you want to try and discuss them without being labelled and lobbed into that group. There is definitely no place for racist, misogynistic or homophobic comments in discussion about TLJ and the idea that Rey should have been male is just ridiculous. As with the selection of any future SW movie directors or actors for a role, gender should not ever come into the equation but simply be the best person for the job regardless of gender unless the character itself calls for a specific gender. In the case of Rey, it could have been written for either gender or easily adjusted as required depending on who won the role.

Agreed. It’s something i’ve seen growing. TFA, you had this happen to a degree, but it’s been the past year that it’s really blown up and TLJ seems to have really brought out the sickening behaviour. There are many many groups of facebook dedicated solely to this kind of thing. Most are secret so you can’t see the content unless you are added. For some reason i keep getting added to these secret groups, so i see what is going on before blocking them from re-adding me again. Just prior to TLJ there was already many campaigns underway to not only ruin the movie for others by spamming every SW group with spoilers, but to also make their grievances heard about how Disney is alienating white males etc etc by downvoting any positive youtube reviews/ videos, spam negative commenting/ reviewing on the main sites ( facebook, IMDb, RT etc) even if they haven;t seen the movie. Makes me laugh in some sad way. They want to go out of their way to give Disney the middle finger, yet pay to go see the film on opening night just so they can spoil it for everyone else. They must lead such sad lives. I, myself, have received strings of abuse the second i said " i liked TLJ".

Which is why i think the term “Mary Sue” should no longer be acceptable to use any more. It may once have been used to mean one thing, but it is more commonly used now in a completely different way by these morons.

And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1

And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.

Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.

Zak fett said:

Plus Yoda says “there’s nothing in the books that the girl rey doesn’t already know”.

No, he did not say that. He said “There is nothing in that library that the girl does not already possess.” , meaning Yoda knew that Bey had taken the books before he burned the tree down. The library was now empty.

Collipso said:

I think that lots of criticism towards both movies upon release are the same, from what the link SilverWook provided tells and from what I can see of TLJ’s reaction.

However, some criticism towards TLJ isn’t about the moviemaking aspect. It’s about the literal core of the characters, with lots of people thinking Luke was ruined, or that Rey doesn’t obey the rules of the universe, etc etc.

And those complaints aren’t going away. They’re problems the audience has with the core of the movie, and I see it as different from the criticisms TESB received upon release.

There were many criticisms about the characters when ESB came out. Claiming they ruined Leia because they turned her into a cow that tossed aside Luke and there is no way she would ever have been interested in Han. That they ruined Luke. They turned him from this hero that was powerful enough to destroy the Death Star and now he is this winging kid who is now a failure because he can’t do some simple tricks that the muppet asks him to do and then who gets his ass kicked and cries like a baby. And having 3P0 & R2 split up for most of the film also received a lot of flack .

I’ve been sent this video many times, through PM’s on facebook and posts on the facebook page. Although this does look really good, it just can;t be added seamlessly into ANH. Not only would it be hard to eliminate the over stylised processing added to the video, but the way its is filmed just doesn’t match the cinematography used in the rest of the film. You can see in the video where someone added the shots into the film, that it just doesn’t work. Having the shots suddenly change to a low angle is very jarring. And thats before taking into account that Vader looks too “shiny” and having to rotoscope the characters and add a background that matched the real corridor. If it hadn’t been shot so stylised with the low angle camera, then there may have been a chance if using some shots. But, unless the completed version has shots that are filmed more in line with the '77 film, i won;t be using any of it

SilverWook said:

https://geektyrant.com/news/star-wars-fans-in-1980-reacted-to-empire-strikes-back-in-the-same-way-fans-are-reacting-to-the-last-jedi

Can you imagine what it would have been like if the internet had existed back then? Empire wasn’t well received by a lot of people who loved the first film and people forget this. Being a teenager when Empire came out i saw a lot of this. Before the film came out there were about 8 of us that were fans. I was the first to see Empire (in Birmingham in 70mm) and i didn’t think it was as good as SW but still enjoyed it. Once the film finally came to Oswestry (where i was living at the time) it divided all of. A couple decided to get rid of all their figures & merch because “they ruined Star Wars”, one said he wouldn’t bother going to see the next one as there was no point and only 2 of us remained fans in the months after (the others just thought they didn’t like it because they were probably too old now). They hated that the battle was at the beginning and that the rest of the film is boring until the lightsaber duel and that it was not fun, but depressing. But then there was also the other side when people who didn’t think much of SW liked ESB. Then you had the usual " I don’t want a black guy being a main character" than ran rampant back in the late 70’s/ early 80’s. But it seems that section hasn’t changed much with the angry fanboys hating the diversity in SW now.

The difference between now and then is that most of the time you were discussing SW, you were discussing it face to face. Now the anonymity of hiding behind a keyboard, along with the change in society, just brings out the more vapid side of the fandom.

DrDre said:
No I provided undeniable proof via the TFA screenplay. That’s what the creators intended. There’s nothing selective about that. You can keep denying the facts, if you want.

I reinterate:

Force Awakens screenplay:

CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN
SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.
And she could kill him – right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!
But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than
even the cliff – the edge of the dark side. The earth
SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html

That’s, what’s in the screenplay. That’s what’s in the film. That’s, what we’ve been arguing.

G’night.

I wouldn’t use that script scene descriptions to prove anything of narrative intentions. That isn’t even the original script ( as many of them on there aren’t).

Mrebo said:

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Those were discussed. The novelization is obviously at odds with what we see on screen and you must contend that even if everything else in that quote is wrong (dropping weapons, falling to knees) then at least the choking is true. The screenplay lines up with my view of the scene and rather than being “less specific” as you say, simply describes something very different from the novel. I don’t begrudge the inferences you wish to draw from the scene, but I think it is way more ambiguous than many are willing to accept.

But the screenplays out there are condensed versions. Most of the stage directions etc are missing. Things are also changed during filming. But How anyone can not see that it is a force choke ( with the guards making CLEAR chocking sounds and grabbing their throats , although one struggles to get his hand in the right position due to the size and padding of the suit) is beyond me. Sorry, but you can’t deny they are choking. It’s as clear as day.

And Mark saying Luke wouldn’t do the force choke was off a quick question and answer vid. He just forgot (which he admitted after). After all this is the guy who has admitted that he hasn’t watched the films outside of their premieres.

DrDre said:

George Lucas:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years…Anyone who studied and worked hard could learn it. But you would have to do it on your own.”

These are the rules of the Star Wars universe. You don’t just get the Force and it takes many, many years of studying to master it. TLJ breaks those rules.

George broke his own rules when he started the prequels. The rules changed from “anyone who studied hard could learn it” to " only a select few, which the Jedi identify at a young age, can use the force".

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

adywan said:

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration.

There is, in fact, an entire scene where Han is strapped to some sort of torture device. Vader stands over him. Han’s screams are heard in the background. “They never even asked me any questions?” Leia cries “why are they doing this?”

So you completely omit, when quoting me, the part where i said " and don’t say that we see things later".If you are saying that this is fine because we see them being tortured later, then you cannot say that we needed to see what death and destruction Ben would cause when Luke is seeing his future, because we have already had one film that shows how bad Kylo is and then again in this film.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

TV’s Frink said:

We don’t even know what he saw. It could have been so bad it was clear there was no saving Ben. Maybe it was a likely future. And he had a moment of weakness, and then he came through it. If you don’t think he can have a one second lapse in judgement, then yes, you think he should be perfect.

He says he saw the destruction of everything he knew and loved. After 25 years of building and rebuilding the Jedi and the New Republic and reaching that utopia we all imagined happened after ROTJ, it’s easy to understand why he’d be so worried about it all being lost to the dark side once again. He saw killing Ben as a quick and easy solution to that potential disaster (and remember Ben wasn’t totally innocent at this point, he was already under the influence of Snoke so it wasn’t just a vision).

The quick and easy solution is obviously the way of the dark side though, but Luke will always have a bit of the dark side in him, the struggle isn’t just resisting it once and you’re all done. It’s a constant struggle, and in this moment he came just a little too close to not resisting it, and it cost him dearly. I find it a very compelling and human story for a character who should be very compelling and human and yes, imperfect.

Again ROTJ sets up Luke losing his cool by letting the viewer experience Luke’s struggles, as he witnesses his friends and allies getting killed. TLJ doesn’t do this. It doesn’t even try to show the threat of young Ben Solo, and how Luke came to fear this young boy. Had we witnessed Luke’s vision or had we been given some set up, where we see one of Luke’s student’s get hurt as Kylo gives in to the dark side, we might have better understood Luke’s reaction. However, the movie appears to be mostly interested in showing Luke’s failure in the face of some scary vision, rather than a proper setup.

The fact of the matter is, the story of this film is not about Why Luke Almost Killed Ben. That’s just what happened long ago that put Luke in the state he is now.

Yes, but considering our history with the character of Luke, and the enormous effect this bit of history has on the development of both Luke and Ben Solo, I think the movie owed us a bit more than one itty bitty scene. If I had to choose between seeing a pointless fight between Finn and Phasma, or a proper setup, further character development, and motivation for Luke and Ben Solo, I would definitely choose the latter.

First of all, I think a vision inside of a flashback would have been a little weird. Second, we see what Ben is capable of on the dark side in the films themselves. We see him burn down Luke’s temple, we see him ally with the First Order, we see him burn down the Jakku village, kill Lor San Tekka, kill Han, etc. We know the terrible power of Kylo Ren. When Luke says he sees that power, I think we get the picture well enough.

^^This

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

dahmage said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:
A single 30 second scene, which has Luke telling us about a bad vision is not a proper set up. Show not tell still remains the best technique.

This is really true for me. These new films are all tell, tell, tell. Oh look at this flashy thing. I think the prequels were criticized for having so much clutter on the screen visually. These Disney films deserve to be criticized for having too much clutter in the narrative. Pointless characters, pointless subplots. Just enough time to tell you a thing or two and then back to the gimmicks. /mad

So, i know that i am combining complaints from different people. but this is what i am hearing, and it is hard to separate the voices sometimes.

• the movie should have told us that
• no, it shouldn’t tell, it should show
• well, i didn’t see that, they should have told me

In movies you tell by showing.

Then please point me to where we see, in ESB, Luke’s vision of his friends being tortured? I’m pretty sure that whole scene is just done through narration. We don’t see anything at that point. And don’t say that we see things later, i’m talking about that point in time. I guess then we also needed to see what happened on Ord Mantell to be able to understand what was so bad that happened with the bounty hunter for Han to suddenly want to leave. Has the viewing audience become so dumbed down that they have to see everything on screen?

Collipso said:

adywan said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

So Luke acted like TESB Luke would’ve acted, denying all the growth the character should’ve had and had on screen and off screen? I don’t really buy it. I almost buy it solely because of Mark Hamill, but the more I think of it, the less I like it.

No, he acted more like he did in ROTJ only it was a fleeting moment and he didn’t act on it. The person who hid in refusal to fight his father. But the moment Vader mentioned turning his sister ( someone who he had only just learned was his sister) he lost it and almost turned to the dark side in a fit of pure rage and was quite willing to kill his father all of a sudden. It was only when Vader was lying there, defeated and he looked down upon his severed mechanical arm, and then back at his own which foreshadowed what he could become, that he regained his composure. If his character hadn’t progressed, as you say, since the OT, then the horror of what he saw would have caused him to strike the blade down upon Ben.

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

Except let’s look at what is going on in each instance. In the PT (or even the OT backstory prior to the PT), the Empire has taken over, the Jedi have been hunted down. Ben and Yoda are in hiding. Waiting for something. They have hope that something will change.

Luke has just had his entire new order of Jedi wiped out (either killed or turned to the dark side). We don’t really know how many, but it wasn’t a lot. The facility is wiped out and the leader is none other than his own nephew. He fears that if he trains anyone else, the same thing will happen again. And Snoke and the Knights of Ren make a force that he does not have the power to combat. He would not kill his father in ROTJ so I’m sure he would not kill his nephew.

So the situations are vastly different in terms of what is at stake personally. Also remember, that Ben and Yoda were fully trained Jedi masters. They had learned to put their emotions behind them. When did Luke learn that lesson. We see in ROTJ that he is still prone to letting his emotions take control. He uses that to defeat Vader. As Johnson writes the lines for Luke to speak, he is also addressing fans who have idolized Luke and made him into something that the movies don’t show. The movies never show him attaining true Jedi mastery of his emotions and feelings. And the events that led to his self imposed exile in the ST are ones that, given the character traits shown and mentioned in the OT, would lead him to do exactly what he did. Luke was never perfect, only very determined. He used the Jedi training he had been taught and it failed his padawans. The same way it failed Kenobi in training Anakin. Luke sees that failing but does not know how to correct it. I saw it quite clearly in the PT that Lucas was showing that it wasn’t Kenobi or Yoda who failed, but the Jedi teachings. We are back to that. The Old Republic Jedi order had a major flaw - they didn’t teach their padawan how to avoid the temptation of the dark side. They just said don’t start down that path. They had gotten to a point where they denied attachments because it might lead that way instead of teaching how to avoid and resist the temptation. It is like teaching abstinence instead contraception to avoid teen pregnancies. It doesn’t work. Both Ben Solo and Anakin needed teachings that the Jedi didn’t have and that Luke doesn’t have.

Luke had three choices after Kylo turned. He could go after Kylo Ren and defeat him and the other dark ones. He could build a new order of Jedi to combat them - but the conflict would come eventually and there was no certainty that the new students wouldn’t be cut down or turned like the previous batch. Or he could decide not to kill and go into hiding. Staying and helping Leia really wasn’t an option because Snoke was already there and he would be expected to train new Jedi. And that is what he now fears. Luke rightly sees the Jedi order as flawed. He has given up instead of finding a way to fix it. And if you go back and watch the original, what he did is exactly in keeping with his character traits as established in the OT.

Sorry this really makes no sense to me. Luke refuses to train more Jedi, because he might fail. In stead he allows Snoke to take Ben Solo and to create any number of dark Force users. So, rather than take a risk, which may lead to a victory for the good guys, he opts for certain doom by doing nothing.

If Luke does nothing, the galaxy will be plunged into a second darkness, as there’s nobody to stand in Snoke’s way. If Luke tries to stop Snoke and Kylo, he might prevail, and then retire the Jedi Order, or he might be killed resulting in the end of the Jedi. Doing nothing obvioysly is the worst choice. Luke would be stupid for not being able to deduce this.

This is absolutely not in keeping with Luke’s character, who went on a suicide mission to destroy the Death Star even without significant knowledge of the Force.

Really? Remember in TESB, “I can’t, its too big” of trying to lift his X-wing out of the swamp? And Luke didn’t lead a suicide mission on the death Star. He was one of 30 pilots. And Luke’s failure was huge. He failed Han and Leia, not just Ben and the other students. And with retreat after failure already in him, such a huge setback could easily bring that out again. It is very in keeping with is personality as the OT presented it, though not as the Expended Universe built him up or as many fans have come to see him. This movie really restored humanity to Luke.

Only if you deny Luke’s character development from the moment he failed to lift the X-wing. Discovering Darth Vader is his father, shattered everything Luke believed in. Yet, he overcame it, and ultimately became a Jedi, and redeemed his father.

Additionally the fact that he even for a moment thought about killing his nephew to the point that he activated his lightsaber, when his nephew had done nothing, but be tempted by the dark side, is just not credible. Luke refused to even fight is father, a man who was everything Luke feared his nephew might become and worse. The Luke of ROTJ would have attempted to redeem his nephew, not murder him in his sleep.

Who ignited and swung their saber first? Luke.

After Palpatine had goaded him, and his friends and allies were in real mortal danger. As I stated before ROTJ sets up Luke losing his composure over multiple scenes. TLJ gives us only a single short scene with a Force vision of something that might happen. It’s not the same thing. If TLJ had set up Kylo as being a real danger to Luke’s students, by hurting one of them, it might have worked for me. As it is now Luke’s terrified of a dream, when he kept his cool for a long time in the face of real danger before.

“Terrified of a dream” and not facing any real danger from it is just your interpretation and not supported by anything in the movie.

There’s nothing in the film, that suggest Ben Solo presented an immediate threat. Luke suggests Snoke had won Kylo’s heart, but he mentions only dark thoughts, and not a single incident of Ben using the dark side against the other students or himself. If anything the film suggests it was Luke himself who tipped the scale, and caused Ben to go beserk.

““I saw darkness. I’d sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then i looked inside. And it was beyond what i ever imagined ( then you hear lightsabers and screaming). Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything that i loved because of what he would become. And in the briefest moment of pure instinct i thought i could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And i was left with shame. And with consequence. And the last thing i saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who’s master had failed him.””

You hear the use of lightsabers and lots of screaming as Luke is seeing the vision of the destruction Kylo would cause and Luke’s pained and terrified expression says it all. Everything you needed to know was in that scene, both visually and descriptively.

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

Choking sounds with them clutching their throats. It’s very clear choking sounds too and not pig like sound either. Watch the scene again and you’ll see how clear it is that Luke is force choking them. And, if you need more proof, then this is direct from the novel:

Luke raised his hand and pointed at them. Before they could draw their weapons they were clutching their own throats, choking, gasping.

It is an interesting piece of evidence, though it doesn’t accurately describe the scene in the film re the weapons. Another piece of evidence is the script which doesn’t appear to mention choking.

Can i ask you, did you watch the scene again (which clearly shows they are choking by not only their actions but the clear choking sound effects) or are you just going by memory?

Mrebo said:

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Pig sounds and hands on chests. Also clear they are not pushed.

Choking sounds with them clutching their throats. It’s very clear choking sounds too and not pig like sound either. Watch the scene again and you’ll see how clear it is that Luke is force choking them. And, if you need more proof, then this is direct from the novel:

Luke raised his hand and pointed at them. Before they could draw their weapons they were clutching their own throats, choking, gasping.

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

Mithrandir said:

The problem with this movie is why Luke has been written to do that wrong in the first place. And the more I think about it the more it comes to mind that the true problem is where TFA left Luke in the first place, and that wasn’t RJ’s decission clearly, but JJ Mistery Box Abrams.

He defined an arc for the trilogy where just for the sake of mistery and cliffhanging (which are as well marketing entertainment decissions) the true hero and protagonist of the OT was lost and locked in an island.

Actually it seems this has nothing to do with JJ. Something i was told a long time ago and the Art of TLJ seems to confirm this, is that the plot point of Luke retreating to the Old Jedi temple after kylo destroyed the new jedi order comes right out of George’s original treatment and long before a director was chosen. Kira (Rey) was to go in search of him and he was going to reluctantly train her. But this changed the second Harrison was on board and it changed to the search for Luke, who wouldn’t be found until the end. Again, this was all set in place before JJ was chosen as Director.

luckydube56 said:

How many truly believe that there is a silent majority that likes or even loves this movie? Star Wars’ 2nd week plummet at the box office suggests that word of mouth is too strong and too widespread to be a mere small and vocal minority. I think the whole ‘small but vocal minority’ theory is being posited with the expectation that it dare not be challenged. I call bullsh!t.

Didn’t bother reading the articles then, just the headlines? 😉 The fact that the second week is the run up to Christmas has a lot to do with it. TFA’s second week drop off was $148 million. TLJ’s was $151. That’s just $3 million difference. Having Christmas fall on a weekend also has a huge impact on that weeks cinema box office takings, for all films. Yet TLJ has the second highest cinema takings for Christmas day in history. Second only to TFA.

Valheru_84 said:
Sorry Jason but I’m not buying his diplomatic talk over everything else he has already said about the matter on top of his reaction after his first viewing speaking volumes about his feelings on the matter. I think he’s dying to say what he really thinks about the whole matter but at the same time doesn’t want to jeopardise his role in IX by pissing off Disney.

This video pulls some of those comments together along with his post viewing reaction, though I wish it didn’t have the bleeding heart violin music over the top of it all.

https://youtu.be/UpWwp-oh4YA

.Val

Nothing more than another one of the same old videos that edit the interviews in an attempt to prove Mark hated it. Why don’t they just show the whole interviews? Oh yeh, that’s right, because it would go against what they are trying to prove.

MERRY CHRISTMAS.

Ryan said:

If you go look at the prequels, none of those movies are “rip-offs” of the OT.

I’m betting if Lucas was still in charge of the ST, then we wouldn’t be getting any rip-off or soft-reboots of the earlier movies.

Really? TPM was a rip off of ANH with extra boring bits added to throw you off, with the whole last act being ROTJ. And AOTC has more in common with ESB than TFA does with ANH. They just jumble it up a bit more and make it look like a video game to throw you off.

Ryan said:

For a while, we were told that Johnson would also be writing and directing Episode 9. But recently we learned that instead, JJ was coming back for 9. Does anyone know what happened there? I’m wondering if Lucasfilm decided they didn’t like the direction that Johnson took the ST in, and decided to bring JJ back to retcon it?

Yeh, they must have really hated his take on the ST to give him how own trilogy. SMH

joefavs said:

Am I the only one with ROTS in dead last?

No, ROTS is last on my list too.