Williarob

TV’s Frink said:

Williarob said:

knowing all this, is it fair to continue this thread any further? Or should there in fact be a public apology for what in the end turned out to be false, untrue, incorrect and unfounded allegations of misconduct that were just thrown out there along with an immediate ban which prevented the accused of uttering even a single word in his own defense?

Have the original emails been sent to Jay?

Yes. He replied:

I’m not sifting through all this; everyone can post their own version and the community can decide who to believe.

theMaestro said:

Just to clarify Williarob: the technicolor print (whose screenshots were posted) you were working on was person 2’s or person 3’s? And you’re saying that it was, in fact, ethically obtained for use in TN-1’s project (meaning the owner was okay with you having the scan and using it for release in your project)?

The physical print belongs to Person #3. We have spoken to him in the past too, and at the time he had no interest in any sort of digital version of his print. The impression we got was that he didn’t care one way or the other what was done to it - after all, once it’s cleaned it shouldn’t be obvious to anyone except those who have worked on it, which Technicolor print(s) were used. What mattered most was Person #3’s anonymity.

When Mike talks about Person #3 freaking out, that was after Poita had posted a single frame on OT that used the original filename, which contained his initials and could therefore perhaps have been traced it back to him. That had nothing to do with us.

Now I can’t say for sure whether or not he approves of TN1 having the print, perhaps he doesn’t, but if that is the case we were not informed of that when we received it and we haven’t heard from him recently. If he had contacted us and requested we not use the scan of his print, we would of course have respected his wishes. Presumably Mike has told him about all this, but we still haven’t had a request from Person #3 asking us not to continue.

And given that, the only thing that is stopping that project from proceeding is wanting to not diminish the upcoming Legacy pitch to Disney?

Correct. If we proceeded with the project and it ended up somehow preventing Mike’s pitch succeeding… Well, nobody wants that.

“It has come to our attention that some of the recent screen shots posted by Team Negative1 are from a scan of a print that has been obtained by unethical means without the owner’s knowledge or consent.”

Thanks to another former member of Team Negative One I have been able to examine the original emails, including those from “person #2”, and they prove beyond any doubt that Mike Verta did NOT pay for the Technicolor scan we received (though he did pay another scan which we don’t have). They also prove that we were given permission to use the scan in anyway we saw fit by the person who actually did pay for it. Now I’m not going to paste the content here because I believe that the one thing both Mike and -1 would actually agree on is that these kind collectors who very generously agreed to share their priceless prints with us, are not to blame for any of this and certainly don’t deserve to be identified in any way or dragged into this any further than they already have.

In fact -1 told me repeatedly to leave things alone, he’d rather take all the blame than have it shifted to them, so please, let’s leave them out of this. I’m only bringing this up now because yesterday Jetrell Fo made a valiant defense of the Team (in the 35mm thread) but in doing so focused attention on the collectors, which is actually worse than leaving us with all the blame.

But, the fact is, I don’t think anyone should be blamed for what, in the end, can only be put down to a lack of communication between all the parties involved.

Secondly, I don’t think it is fair to label -1 as wanting to be “the guy who wanted to save Star Wars” or seeking “fame”. First of all, all the interviews are by a “Mr. Black” - not even “-1” and all this trouble with the Team Account was BECAUSE OF HIS WISH TO BE ANONYMOUS! It’s pretty hard to seek fame and anonymity at the same time! The only reason we agreed to any interviews at all was to make sure the details were reported as accurately as possible, if they were to be reported at all. Nobody wanted the media circus that followed. And I don’t see anybody accusing Harmy of wanting to be the guy who saved Star Wars or seeking Fame and fortune based on his projects and he’s been in the spot light a lot longer than we have.

Thirdly, in spite of the knowledge that we had done no wrong we still agreed to shut down the project “for the greater good”.

So, regardless of whether or not you “like” -1 or Team Negative One (Frink), knowing all this, is it fair to continue this thread any further? Or should there in fact be a public apology for what in the end turned out to be false, untrue, incorrect and unfounded allegations of misconduct that were just thrown out there along with an immediate ban which prevented the accused of uttering even a single word in his own defense?

Do you still think the print was obtained unethically? The fact that Mike didn’t give his consent is irrelevant - he neither paid for the scan, nor owned the print. Consider this, the owner of the scan, that is the person who actually paid a huge amount of money to have it scanned, took the time to copy 21 TB of data onto 7 3TB hard drives, boxed them all up and mailed them to the team so they could use them. It’s hard to picture that happening without his knowledge or consent.

I rest my case.

moviefreakedmind said:

I think from now on team accounts should be outlawed. I cannot think of any reason to have them. Harmy collaborates with a lot of other users but they did not create a communal “team_negativeHarmy” account.

I agree. No more team accounts!

TV’s Frink said:

AntcuFaalb said:

AllAboutThatSpace said:

Made the mistake of being curious about what post 102 was

It caused an incredible amount of drama in Off Topic way-back-when. Ah, the memories…

Despite being someone who should know better, and was probably involved…I’m completely lost.

See AntcuFaalb’s signature.

poita said:

I have to get a new motherboard first, so it won’t be shipping this week, it will be next month at the earliet.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. No worries.

AntcuFaalb said:

Jetrell Fo said:

Person#2 could be a chair for all I know.

The reality of this whole situation is, strangely, that Person #2 is a chair.

I heard he was a table.

RedBro said:

The press around the release of version 1.0 has likely done more to move Disney/Fox towards an official release than any fan campaign yet.

You may be right about that, but I’m not so sure that a follow up release would have quite the same impact. Besides, the last time I checked, only about 12 minutes of it had been cleaned, so it’s not like it could be uploaded next week anyway.

I hear what you are saying, I really do, and in fact I find a lot of your arguments quite compelling, but I still think we should wait and see what happens with Disney. Beyond short term gratification, I don’t see that we have anything to lose by waiting but we have everything to gain by not interfering. Heck we’ve been waiting 19 years already, what’s one more? Worst case scenario - nothing happens, there is no deal, and Disney just reboxes the same discs as last time for sale next year in their shiny new “Limited Edition 40th Anniversary Box Set”. I think everybody here will agree that that would be a really dumb thing to do, (what a missed opportunity!) but hey, it could happen. And if it does? -1 still has the scan, right? So you may still get to see it. And if you’re right, and he’s still working on it anyway, it may even be ready by then.

I agree with towne32. An official release of Legacy trumps a fan based restoration, not only because the quality will be unmatched, but also because it can actually give Star Wars back to the people in a way that an illegal, underground release simply cannot. Every day I see requests from people wanting to know how to download the Silver Screen Edition - you know normal people like your Dad who just want to watch it, not geeks who already know how to use torrents and the usenet. They don’t know how to get it, and nobody can give them a simple “click here” to get it solution. If you are new to all this, there are a lot of hoops to jump through before you can find what you came here for.

Putting the original version of The Star Wars Trilogy back on store shelves preserves the film for everyone. Future generations need to see this, not because it’s better then the Special Editions (even though it is) but because it is a piece of film history that Lucas himself has so short-sightedly tried to re-write. The people who worked on the film, who won Academy awards for truly groundbreaking Visual Effects should be recognized for their achievements in this version of the film - not for a poorly rendered CGI version of Jabba that they had absolutely nothing to do with. Future generations of film students should be studying the original version of the film, and they should have something better than laserdisc era media to watch it on.

While we would all love to have that 2.0 version out there to “tide us over” until an official release, I think it would be very selfish to do so, particularly if by doing so we derailed a deal that could lead to us achieving the goal that this entire site was created for. So let’s delay that instant gratification for the few in favor of long term gratification for everyone.

Lasz said:

Williarob said:

Lasz said:

Williarob said:

Poita’s scan of the LPP.

a scan of the whole movie or just for replacement parts?

The whole movie.

wow.

and are there plans for creating a release from that scan or will it just be used for replacement parts?

That’s a good question and the answer really depends on how much better the scan is, and how easy it is to swap sources. The new scan should be cleaner, sharper and smear free but it will still have the same color issues and much of the same physical damage. In theory, it may be possible to swap out the frames from the old print with those of the new and apply the same cleanup, but of course in the real world things are never that easy… I would like to replace as much of the source material as I can because I think that will result in the best quality final product, but not if it will take another three years to complete.

Don’t worry though, I will keep you posted every step of the way. If we have learned anything from this debacle, I think we learned that having a secretive “team” account that only makes infrequent, ambiguous and often nonsensical statements is bad. That badness leads to anger, and anger leads to hate, and hate leads us… well, to where we are now really with the team’s greatest achievement being over shadowed by allegations of misconduct.

So in an effort to avoid this sort of thing happening again I shall try to be as transparent as possible. To that end, I can tell you that Poita’s scan should be shipping sometime this week. When it arrives I’ll post some comparisons. I don’t anticipate it being the kind of night and day difference there is between the LPP and the Tech, but it should be better than what we have.

Lasz said:

Williarob said:

Poita’s scan of the LPP.

a scan of the whole movie or just for replacement parts?

The whole movie.

Mods: You can lock this thread, this project has been terminated.

As I mentioned in the Legacy thread, my initial stance on this was in defense of the team. Like most of you, I have never actually met any of Team Negative One in person, but unlike most of you I have spoken at length with them on the phone and back and forth in hundreds of emails. They are all really nice people and we get along well and I will stay in touch with most of them. But the Team really is no more.

My personal goal has always been to create the best possible version of the Original Star Wars, and while the Silver Screen Edition is not that, I do believe that it is a very good way to experience the original Theatrical version. Star Wars in 1977/8 was not the shiny, grain free, HD experience you get when watching Harmy’s Despecialized Editions (which I actually think are fantastic, they bring Star Wars to a new level, and from what I have seen of it, Legacy Edition is even better).

In his thread, Mike Verta says we should leave restoration to the professionals, but let’s remember that it was “professionals” that gave us the 2004 DVDs and the 2011 Blu-rays. While I’m more than happy to leave Star Wars in Mike Verta’s hands, I still don’t trust those other “professionals”.

I’m hopeful that the media circus “Mr. Black” stirred up will help Mike’s pitch to Disney, and that ultimately something truly great will finally happen - not just an official release, but an official release of Legacy.

Where does that leave this project? Well, I am waiting on some (color correction) project files from another former member, and on Poita’s scan of the LPP. When they arrive I will complete the project by re-inserting the missing frames and making it Gout sync’d so that it will work with project threepio for subtitles and you can pick whichever audio stream(s) you prefer in order to mux them. I will do my best to sync the Original Spanish Theatrical Audio, and then upload a new 1080p MKV and author a blu-ray version and upload that too.

No time frame on any of this, but I’d like to get it done as soon as possible so that we can close this thread and move on. It’s left me with a bad taste in my mouth, which is a shame because I am quite proud of the project.

mverta said:

theMaestro said:

So I have a question. Let’s say you present this to Disney/Fox and they end up absolutely loving it. If they offered you a job to restore Empire and Jedi in the same manner, would you do it? I ask because I haven’t seen anyone put as much care and attention to detail into a restoration as you have and it would be great if the latter movies could also get the same treatment.

Absolutely. I don’t have the same love for those films, but absolute respect for their rightful place in film history. It’s just taken so much to get Star Wars together… so much time, so much energy. I’m so deeply in debt because of it, that the idea of going through all that again is just… what a nightmare. But if I was given the references - I mean, if somebody did the legwork and handed me the stuff and said, “fix this,” it would be great fun, and I’ve got the process for it. I mean, sure. Totally.

By the way, I notice there is talk about “speculation” regarding the “unethical” use of scans. There is no need for speculation, I am happy to provide the specific facts. They are as follows:

Legacy ultimately features the contributions of 4 (really 4 1/2) Tech prints in addition to various Eastman prints. Early on, I was loaned the “Spanish” print by -1. I didn’t end up using much of it, but I had it scanned at 4K. I was also loaned a “so-so” Tech by Person #2, and a really nice Tech by Person #3. For safety, Person #2 was given digital copies of both his AND Person #3’s scans. Person #2 was, at the time, assumed trustworthy, if for no other reason than self-interest. But then things changed. Person #2 decided to give ALL the scans in his possession to -1. Person #3 rightfully freaked the fuck out - he wanted nothing to do with -1, for all the reasons which should now be clear, but it was too late. Of course, relationships have been severed and damage done. Interestingly, in the middle of this process, a member of team -1 reached out to me because they didn’t have the Greedo scene for shit. To be cool, I actually gave them a nice Tech scan of that scene, not knowing they already had it, or were in the process of getting it. So no good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

So -1 ended up with scans they were not supposed to have, and did precisely with them what people were afraid of them doing. However, that’s spilled milk. -1 is in possession of some decent scans, which, when examining their work, should pretty much put to rest any question about how important ability and experience is in film restoration. Clearly, having decent scans ain’t enough.

Yeah, I was the person who reached out and got stuck in the middle. I had just joined the team and had no idea any of this was happening. Mike had just done a late night video Q & A and had mentioned that he didn’t know what print -1 had but would like to know if it was something he could use. I reached out to him and gave him some sample frames. Mike immediately recognized the print (which astonished me at the time) as being the Spanish print he had already scanned. I asked for help with the Greedo scene and Mike very kindly provided us with the full scene in 4k - which I used in the final version. Mike also requested we send him Reel 1 of the Spanish Print again so that he could get it rescanned, and I passed on the request to -1 who told me “no way”, and went on to bash Mike in another thread here on OT. -1 Also refused to even acknowledge Mike’s contribution to the project - not even a “thank you” for the Greedo scene.

While I can’t plead ignorance of the source for Team Negative One’s v2.0, I assumed that person #2 was the owner of that print and that if he gave it to us that meant it was ok for us to use it. For the record I don’t know that he ever sent us the scan of the second print (I’m pretty sure it never arrived although I heard it was supposed to. Certainly I never saw it, so I think he may have gotten cold feet, probably after person #3 started freaking out).

Anyway, while I initially supported the team, believing they had done nothing wrong here, I now know the truth and have since parted ways with -1.

Darth Lucas said:

I don’t see the publicity as a problem at all. Either lucasfilm continues not to care, they see it’s cutting into their profits and decide to do their own OOT release, or they C&D anyways and piss off the fans. Given that since the sale to Disney, they seem to be focusing the whole company around fan relations, I doubt they’d do something that so publicly foresakes them.

Now I’ve heard from what I consider to be a pretty reliable source from Disney (not lucasfilm so take it with a grain of salt but still) that an OOT release is part of the plan to be released within the next couple years, probably alongside another release. So my guess is that they’re going to turn a blind eye to this stuff in the meantime, especially since the publicity helps fuel demand for an official release, then when they release their oot, they’ll probably start cracking down on fan releases a bit more.

I agree. Star Wars hasn’t been this popular since 1977 and at this point keeping the fans happy keeps their cash cow profitable. What’s more, I don’t see this as bad publicity for them at all. It’s not Disney’s fault that we don’t have the original Star Wars on Blu-ray.

And Besides, if they do release Mike Verta’s Legacy Edition - or allow him to supervise an official restoration - we could all pack up and go home happy. (Not that I believe for one second that the Legacy Edition will please everybody here or even meet everyone’s expectations of what Star Wars should be, but it would make a fantastic resource for everyone to build on, to create their own “ideal version” of Star Wars. Within a year of its release, after everyone has made their little tweaks and shared them here, this site might be deserted… I doubt there would be any need at that point for them to start cracking down. I know I’d be done.)

Rask40 said:

Now I’m confused.

You can clearly see more of the storm trooper on the left in the bluray. So the Technicolor is cropped. And a little bit from the top too. But bluray is cropped slightly from the right side.

Well the entire frame can be seen in the imgur shot as the image behind the Blu-ray. Presumably, the negative has at least that much information. From that, the blu-ray was cropped with more to the left than the right, while the Tech was cropped more to the right than the left… I have not cropped the images at all, and Photoshop was not to blame after all, I just grabbed the frame from the wrong folder when I went back to check. (Dre’s color match tool is so good it fooled me into thinking I was looking at the Tech!)

Williarob said:

Stinky-Dinkins said:

That looks incredible, completely amazing. The amount of resolvable detail looks to be pretty much on par with the official BD, and with the grain it looks far more natural and pleasing.

Why is the Technicolor frame cropped slightly? I’m sure it’s been covered before but is the cropping measurably different than, say, the BD version which looks to be more opened up especially on the sides?

Actually the Tech has more information on all sides than the BD:

http://imgur.com/J4tOzjs

I looked into why it is so cropped here and found that it was erroneously cropped by Photoshop’s Edit -> Align Layers -> Auto, used to register the images.

I take it back. I got my prints confused. The Tech has not been cropped at all. The larger image that looks like the Tech in the picture I posted to imgur is actually the LPP, colored to match the Tech! So the framing in the screenshot comparison is accurate.

Stinky-Dinkins said:

That looks incredible, completely amazing. The amount of resolvable detail looks to be pretty much on par with the official BD, and with the grain it looks far more natural and pleasing.

Why is the Technicolor frame cropped slightly? I’m sure it’s been covered before but is the cropping measurably different than, say, the BD version which looks to be more opened up especially on the sides?

Actually the Tech has more information on all sides than the BD:

http://imgur.com/J4tOzjs

I looked into why it is so cropped here and found that it was erroneously cropped by Photoshop’s Edit -> Align Layers -> Auto, used to register the images.

Wazzles said:

Williarob said:

Team Negative One v1 (LPP) vs Team Negative One v2 (Technicolor):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/162295

Looks great! Could someone post the Blu Ray frame as well?

Here you go: Bluray vs Team Negative One 2.0

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/162382

Looks great!

ger-el said:

Besides the difference in color, is the scene slightly out of focus in the LPP screenshot?

I believe it is, yes. The LPP is actually a little sharper than our scan of it, but it is certainly not as sharp as the Tech.

Is it “The Creatures from Revenge of the Jedi”?

Edit: Strike That. Not A New Hope related.

Team Negative One v1 (LPP) vs Team Negative One v2 (Technicolor):

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/162295

Maybe we could have a whip round and raise some cash for you to rebuild, like we did for Harmy when he needed a new system?

snotrag said:

Is there still a plan to get the blu-ray iso up on MySpleen? Thanks again for your work!

Yes, that is still the plan, but we are still re-working a few shots and then there is the GOUT Syncing, re-encoding and blu-ray authoring to do, so it is still at least a few weeks away, possibly longer.