Warbler

This Mary Sue stuff is just flat out wrong. I’d be saying the same things about Rey being too powerful without training if she were male. In fact I don’t necessarily object to it. I just want more of an explanation for it. That balance thing with REN just doesn’t fly. We don’t see that happen with Luke and Vader. Yes Luke made the Death Star shot, but then after getting some training he gets his rear end kicked by Vader. This clearly shows it is much more difficult to take on a trained force user in a lightsaber fight than it is to make the Death Star shot. There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race. He as well was beaten in a lightsaber fight after receiving some training again proving what I said above. Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation. Saying that I am sexist for thinking is just ridiculous and silly and insulting.

DrDre said:

@Frink

I’m absolutely fine with you or anyone else liking TLJ. I respect that, but what I don’t understand, is why it’s so difficult to return that courtesy.

This I agree with.

Mrebo said:
There’s also a contributor whose name I’ve not heard in a long time, a long time.

who?

Ah I remembered correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW30c_QPZGQ

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977

I don’t care if it’s not in the film.

and established it in his films.

How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?

Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.

Last thing I’m saying for a while…

We saw one person trying to learn in the OT, Luke, which is my whole point. There is zero evidence in the OT that everyone has to learn how to use the Force the same way.

And I don’t give a shit about anything the PT says. And we never saw any trials, so by your own logic where we never saw it so it didn’t happen, the trials mean nothing. Even if you include the PT, all we actually saw was a bunch of kids playing with lightsabers and the Jedi acting like absolute morons.

Frink, no matter how much we hate the PT, it is still official cannon. Though we did not see any Jedi trials, didn’t Obiwan refer to being read for them?

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

Porkins4real said:

TV’s Frink said:

“There has been an awakening.”

Why does it have to come from her parents?

It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.

Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.

Kind of like in ESB where Han is frozen?

There’s still another movie to go.

No, not like that. I’m not talking about unresolved plot threads, I’m talking about how the Last Jedi takes things that were set up in TFA and resolves them in a way by saying it doesn’t matter. The twist is there is no twist. Snoke’s role makes no sense and is unsatisfying, Rey’s force vision makes no sense and is unsatisfying (I like that she’s random but I don’t like its execution), and so on.

The Last Jedi doesn’t even really leave much to look forward to. Everything that was set up to be important in TFA is resolved here, and leaves nothing but Kylo Ren either being killed off or redeemed or both for the finale.

I left this film feeling very conflicted about it, there is some great stuff and some not so great stuff, but as time goes on I find less and less to like about it.

I agree with all you’re saying here.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

TV’s Frink said:

[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]

Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?

Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?

Because that’s how the Force works.

George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977

I don’t care if it’s not in the film.

and established it in his films.

How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?

You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.

There is a reason why the jedi academy in the PT existed. There is a reason why Luke needed training. There is a reason for the whole Padawan thing. You don’t just become a Jedi without training.

NFBisms said:

He probably could have beat a very injured Kylo. xP

Without any training? I doubt it.

Gaffer Tape said:

Personally, while I do like a hero to have to earn and strive towards their powers/goals, the whole idea that The Force has to be diligently studied in order to be effectively used is somewhat blown out of the water when Luke uses it to make a one in a million shot to blow up the Death Star literally a day after finding out it exists.

Do you think could have defeated Vader in lightsaber duel without training?

joefavs said:

I was just going to say, having special parents isn’t the only way to be special. These movies lost sight of that for a while, but it was always true. Hell, Anakin’s mom was a nobody.

But his father was literally nobody. That makes Anakin special. He was created by Palpatine.

well at least it didn’t start a fire.

Gaffer Tape said:

Warbler said:

In that scene it kinda felt like they were doing this in the movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Same thing with the scene with reveal about Rey’s parents.

Sorry, but that is how it felt to me.

Maybe I can see how the lightsaber scene could be viewed that way, but I just don’t see why people were so dead-set on Rey’s parents being someone special!

Because she is someone special. Look at her force abilities. Without any training in TFA, she stopped Ren from reading her thoughts, she Jedi mind tricked the guard, she defeated Ren in the lightsaber battle. She is obviously very strong in the force, and it came from nowhere?

Or that TFA was totally, for sure implying that was the case. I for one would have been extremely pissed if she had been a Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine family member, and I was literally fist-pumping and whisper-yelling, “YES! YES! YES!” when Kylo told her her parents were nobodies. Because I am so sick of everybody in this freaking galaxy being related or having backstories tied to one another. It hasn’t been cool since 1980. That’s literally the only time it’s worked. It certainly didn’t work in 1983 when Luke and Leia became related. It didn’t work in 2002 when Boba Fett’s daddy fought Obi-Wan Kenobi. And it really, really, REALLY didn’t work in 2005 when Yoda and Chewbacca were BFFs. It just would have been another cheap rehash if Rey had been shoehorned into someone else’s family tree.

I suppose you do have a point here.

Gaffer Tape said:

Mavimao said:

36 year old fan here: I felt like this Luke Skywalker definitely fell in line with the Luke we grew up with. Abeit one who made a mistake and can’t help but hide in shame.

The funny thing is: I was expecting a curmudgeon Luke when TFA came out. I mean, they pretty much set it up in that film. Jedi school gets wiped out by Kylo, Luke runs off to find the Jedi temple (looking for answers?), and doesn’t find solace and decides that life isn’t worth living.

I totally agree! It surprises me that people were surprised by the Rey/Luke pick-up at the top of this movie as compared to the end of TFA. As far as I saw it, that was exactly what I was expecting! When he tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder, it was shocking but at the same time, exactly what I figured was going to happen.

In that scene it kinda felt like they were doing this in the movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

Same thing with the scene with reveal about Rey’s parents.

Sorry, but that is how it felt to me.

yhwx said:

But we all agree that Florida should be removed, correct?

This is a joke, correct?

Mrebo said:

The following is a thought experiment, so please do not take too much umbrage.

In the 2016 election, Trump [earned] 58,501,015 votes and Clinton [earned] 57,099,728 votes - if we exclude the votes in California for both candidates. Considering the matter on a state-by-state basis, it’s funny that California would negate the popular choice of the 49 other states. Consider further that even if we also exclude Texas’s votes, Trump still wins the popular vote in the remaining 48 states. That is how big a difference the people of California can make in a popular vote system.

I want a candidate to be made to appeal to as broad a swath of America as possible. I abhor that pretty much every GOP candidate in the 2016 primary bowed to the ethanol lobby in states like Iowa. And yet, it is one example of how candidates are made to appeal to interests in individual states. If you think the ethanol subsidies are great, this should appeal to you.

California only negates the choice of the other states cause the because of how all the other states voted. The numbers were just close enough that California could make the difference. But Trump or Clinton had been ahead of the other by enough votes, California wouldn’t make a difference.

Mrebo said:

You do all realize he’s just trolling I hope. There’s gotta be a tweet reply out there along the lines of, “you never saw The Day After Tomorrow, did you?”

The President has a lot more important things to do than troll on twitter.

nhoj3 said:

DrDre said:

Sorry, I probably just misread the reply. I agree with you both.

No, Warbler first agreed with the meme, then subsequently agreed with Collipso who counter-argued the meme.

I changed my mind since first agreeing with the meme.

DrDre said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

I disagree.

What happened to Obi-Wan and Yoda:

• Jedi purge aided by Obi-Wan’s former apprentice now Darth Vader
• Galactic Empire takes over the galaxy
• Yoda and Obi-Wan face off against Sidious and Vader despite terrible odds
• Yoda fights Sidious to a stalemate and is forced to flee, as troops arrive
• Obi-Wan defeats Vader, leaving him for dead
• Obi-Wan and Yoda are now hunted by the Empire, branded traitors with the approval of the Senate, and are forced into hiding
• Obi-Wan and Yoda hide Luke and Leia
• It takes twenty years for the Rebel Alliance to become a significant threat to the Empire’s powerbase
• Leia asks Obi-Wan for help in their most desparate hour, Obi-Wan answers their call

What happened to Luke:

• Luke’s Jedi Academy is destroyed by his former apprentice partly caused by Luke’s unfortunate mistake
• New Republic controls most of the galaxy
• FO is growing in power, but at this point still a fringe government
• Despite the fact that there’s still plenty of opportunity to stop the FO with the help of the Resistance and the Republic fleet, Luke doesn’t even try, and goes into exile, leaving everything behind
• In Luke’s absence the FO grows in power to the point, that it is able to destroy the Republic capital and take over the galaxy
• Luke refuses to help even after his sister Leia through Rey informs him of their situation, and his best friend has been murdered

These are really good points.

joefavs said:

This is the first time in my 28 years that I’ve even seen it suggested that Luke could’ve been doing anything other than choking the guards. I had no idea there was any disagreement at all about that.

This is the first time in the 34 years since the movie came out that I have heard he was force choking the guards. I must have watched ROTJ millions of times and never got that idea.

nhoj3 said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

This meme or whatever you call it is dumb. Obi-Wan didn’t tell Luke: “hey you’re Dad was an asshole and the Jedi deserve to die.” Yoda never told Luke: “there is no dark side or light side. the jedi were arrogant and wrong”.

I also agree with this sentiment. A friend of mine sent that meme to me a few days ago, and while it has what Stephen Colbert would refer to as “truthiness” that might cause others to nod their head in agreement, it really doesn’t hold up under any scrutiny. Kenobi was acting as a watchful guardian, protecting a young boy from harm. Yoda was bidding his time, awaiting a new apprentice. Both were on the run from being butchered, having already lost all of their friends.

None of these circumstances are comparable to Luke.

also Obiwan and Yoda were in hiding from the Empire and Palpatine and Vader. The First Order isn’t the Empire, Snoke is not Palpatine and certainly Kilo Ren is not Vader. Also when Obiwan and Yoda went into hiding there was no rebellion going on. Finally when Obiwan heard Leia’s plea for help, he didn’t refuse.

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Possessed said:

This meme or whatever you call it is dumb. Obi-Wan didn’t tell Luke: “hey you’re Dad was an asshole and the Jedi deserve to die.” Yoda never told Luke: “there is no dark side or light side. the jedi were arrogant and wrong”.

This is also a good point.

adywan said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

Really? Even with the guards grabbing their throats and making choking noises? He was obviously force choking.

They grabbed their throats? I don’t recall hearing any choking noises.

Possessed said:

You do make a good point.

Frank your Majesty said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

This:

was totally unnecessary and was only added to sell toys.

So was this, if you remember. 😉

True, but at least the Ewoks were put to better use. All that thing did in TLJ was hang around and look cute.

In my opinion, that makes the Ewoks even worse. the Porgs have only a minute of screentime, while the Ewoks play a much bigger role. If you don’t like the Porgs, you can easily ignore them or remove them in a fan-edit. That doesn’t work with the Ewoks.

True.

Frank your Majesty said:

Mrebo said:

Warbler said:

Mocata said:

Warbler said:

I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ

I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.

I agree with Warb. We know what it looks like if someone is choking and that wasn’t what happened in that scene. I have always read the scene as Luke convincing the GGs to go back to their posts and sleep, their hands on their chests in a restrained or passive position.

They seem to be pushed back, not just walking back, so it’s definitely more than just a mind trick.

Force push then.