Warbler

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

for years I just though he used a mind trick maybe combined with force push to get them to back off.

Ok so that’s clearly not the case.

clearly not case?

TV’s Frink said:

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

Don’t worry, next week someone will post a 10 minute video of someone else explaining exactly why anyone who thinks it’s a force choke is wrong.

sheesh.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

Sorry, it was Mrebo who said it.

So if you don’t think they’re choking, what’s your alternate explanation?

for years I just though he used a mind trick maybe combined with force push to get them to back off.

Collipso said:

It’s so weird to me that people see Luke vs. Guards as something other than a force choke.

I wonder if part of it could be that for years, I could only watch it on VHS in pan and scan. Letterboxing just wasn’t done in 1983. The guards putting their hands on their necks might have been cut out of the frame. I only saw the widescreen version once in 1983 and then pan and scan for years until the SE came out in the theaters.

TV’s Frink said:

I will never understand how gurgling noises and putting your hands up to your throat/chest area could be considered “going to sleep.” You clearly sleep differently than pretty much any other person.

I never said I thought they were going to sleep. I do not think they were going to sleep.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke in the OT, minus the books. :p

except that right after he got those lessons, Luke got his rear end handed to him by Vader, where as before the lessons Rey renders Ren helpless.

This has already been addressed.

Not to my satisfaction.

Yes I know. I’m just saying it’s already been answered. You disagree, fine.

okay.

Mielr said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

I posted the quotes from the novelization AND the screenplay on pg. 106 (is anyone listening?! LOL!!!)

Yes, I saw. Thankyou.

The screen play doesn’t make clear what powers he is using.

Jeebus said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

And your perception is the be-all-end-all? Didn’t you miss the salt thing on Crait?

I only watched TLJ once. I’ve watched ROFJ millions of times.

Does anyone know what the dice things were that Luke handed Leia?

I’d to know why Yoda, after he died, didn’t appear in the Emperor’s thrown room and hit him with that lightning.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke in the OT, minus the books. :p

except that right after he got those lessons, Luke got his rear end handed to him by Vader, where as before the lessons Rey renders Ren helpless.

This has already been addressed.

Not to my satisfaction.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

it is really annoying that you deliberately refuse to consider evidence.

Only “evidence” consisting of someone I don’t know talking at a camera.

who for all you know might be making some good points and arguments.

If he wanted to actually explain what the video says, I might have cared, except I don’t give a shit about the Mary Sue argument for all the reasons I’m endlessly repeating and also because he completely missed the point of what I was saying in the first place.

Why does he have to explain what the video says when you can watch it and know what is says?

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

It doesn’t matter. What matters is what’s on the screen, and they’re clearly being choked. They make gurgling sounds and put their hands up to their throats.

The screenplay might show what they intended Luke to be doing in that scene.

Why is this still a debate?

Because I’ve watched that scene millions of times over the last 34 years since it came out, and I never got the idea he was using force choke.

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

in the end all she got from Luke were a couple of incomplete lessons, and some books

Sounds like Luke in the OT, minus the books. :p

except that right after he got those lessons, Luke got his rear end handed to him by Vader, where as before the lessons Rey renders Ren helpless.

TV’s Frink said:

Handman said:

TV’s Frink said:

The issue is unequal treatment of equal male and female characters.

But are they (Rey and Luke, I assume) the same? I hardly think so.

At the risk of continuing a debate that I have to keep pointing out has been debated endlessly on this site for two years now, I never said they’re the same at all. And I have no interest in whatever that video is trying to say.

it is really annoying that you deliberately refuse to consider evidence.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

“That is why you fail.”

I don’t get it.

DrDre said:

Porkins4real said:

DrDre said:

Mocata said:

DrDre said:
Yeah, but that just a way of bypassing the argument.

By weighing up the things we see on screen and coming to a rational conclusion? TFA aside what does she do in TLJ that makes her so perfect? Screw everything up and give Kylo a swanky throne? Made of solid gold? I don’t get it. Then again we had a whole debate about how Luke never choked anyone, so who knows what powers of inference anybody has these days. So many angry people.

I wasn’t part of the Luke Force choke debate, sorry.

Given Mark Hammill believe Luke never used Force Choke we can put that debate to bed.

I personally allways interpreted the scene as signifying Luke’s a darker character now, and more like his father than he might think. So, to me that allways was a case of Luke using a Force choke, but if Hamill or anyone else sees it differently, I suppose only George Lucas has the answer. The ROTJ screenplay doesn’t speak of a Force choke, so you may very well be right.

anyone know exactly what the screenplay says in that scene?

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

The ‘balance’ in the force is a theme (and it’s interpretation) that has run through the films. That light rises to meet darkness or darkness rises to meet the light is hardly anything new in TLJ - or underdeveloped previously.

If that so, Luke should have been Vader’s (or maybe Palpatine’s) equal in TESB.

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Well if the explanation is argued to make no sense in the context of what came before or to be underdeveloped, than it does negate the explanation in the eyes of the beholder. That’s what we’re debating here I think.

exactly.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

No, he’s just on his arse. There was no winner due to the planet coming apart.

Go watch the fight again. He was on ass before the planet came apart. He was on the ground helpless for 15 seconds before the planet came apart and they were separated. She won the fight.

Look this and tell me she didn’t win the fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJTz-ahXyyI&feature=youtu.be&t=4m18s

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

Things evolve and change over the course of these films - that they aren’t mentioned or shown previously does not negate them. That it is mentioned on-screen - whether you agree, dislike, or ‘buy’ it - does not negate it.

Either it is a thing that exists or it doesn’t. If it exists what are the odds something like wouldn’t be mentioned at all?
It didn’t happen the PT, It didn’t happen between Luke and Vader. It is not mentioned at all in any previous film. That is the problem when you decide to invent something new, you have to account for its absence in the prior films. I don’t the evolve and change stuff. Either this is something the force does or it doesn’t.

If you want to ignore an explanation then go ahead and ignore it - but don’t then state there wasn’t one / or that it then ‘begs for an explanation’.

Maybe I should have said “begs for a better explanation”.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Let me know when you come up with a better way to prove you’re right and I’m wrong about that scene.

Let me know when lightsabers and the force become real and then we’ll see.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.

You are referring to the sabre fight vs Ren in TFA - where he was already injured from Chewbacca’s powerful crossbow shot, was bleeding from it, also taking a hit from his sabre fight with Finn, and also felt conflicted & weak over just killing his father? In a fight in which the aim was not to kill Rey - but to bring her to Snoke… a fight in which he actually offered to be her teacher… and in which Rey was on the backfoot for nearly all of it before ‘letting the force in’…

Rey didn’t win the lightsabre fight at all… even after ‘letting the force in’ as it were - though she had gained the upper hand by scarring him & put him on his arse - yet the fight was broken up by the planet coming apart…

Um, she did win the fight. The only reason he survived or wasn’t taken prisoner is because of the planet coming apart.

 

She may well be special and strong with the force - Snoke’s on-screen ascertain to Rey that… ‘So much strength. Darkness rises and light to meet it’ & ‘I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger that the equal in the light would rise’ (and his mistaken assumption that was Luke - not Rey) is a statement of this. That you choose to ignore this as an explanation is on you.

As I said, I buy that explanation because this thing of the equal of the light rising wasn’t shown or referred to in any of the other movies.

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

Obviously the only way to test this is for you to go get trained in the Force, dahmaged will shoot you in the side, and then you and I will have a lightsaber fight. Let’s do this.

^ silly.

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

The explanation is chewie had just shot kylo ren with his crossbow and he was quite injured. You can even see blood falling out of his suit in several shots.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Yeah he was injured, but it was still someone trained against someone untrained.

dahmage said:

Warbler said:

There is no evidence that Anakin was using the force in the pod race.

Qui-Gon flat-out states that he does.

He does? I had forgotten.

oojason said:

Warbler said:

Rey won a lightsaber fight without any training at all. This indicates that she is special and incredibly strong in the force and it begs for an explanation.

When was this lightsabre fight?

In TFA.