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But how? Don’t get me wrong, he’s a compelling character, but he’s not a credible villain.
Agreed.
Jeebus said:
I think it’s just because the trilogy wasn’t planned out. JJ thought that Rey’s parents should be important, Rian felt differently.Sadly, I think that’s entirely possible. Lucas went that route in his six films and to varying degrees depending on who you ask, it weakened the franchise and most certainly fractured the fan base. Lack of planned story isn’t a good thing.
I’m one of the loudest proponents of her being Rey Random. It’s the very universe expansion I’ve wanted for decades. I hope they stick with it. The ship could be someone leaving after they’ve killed or taken her deadbeat parents. There are all sorts of ways that fleeting scene works with a Rey Random story. Fingers crossed JJ does it justice. He has an appreciation of the history of the franchise. I suspect he doesn’t want to trample on it.
It’s the Rian tell part of a story game aspect that’s disappointing. I don’t have a problem with Luke as an older and different man 40 years after we first met him. In fact, I expect it and welcome it. His less than friendly relationship with Rey is the best part of the film. That said, I found the shoulder toss of the light saber to be completely deflating after the weight we were left with in the last scene of TFA.
In the few times I’ve watched TFA this past year, after Rey meets Han, I skip ahead to that last scene. I thought it was done perfectly. I don’t anymore. For me, the emotional depth of that last TFA scene was ruined when it goes from serious to shoulder toss let’s go milk a sea monster in a matter of moments. WTF Rian?
Luke can certainly be dismissive of The Force. After 40 years of what he views as a misguided trust in it, that’s a totally valid and interesting story direction. I just don’t buy that he would flippantly toss aside something that was such a big part of his earlier life. He lost his only family and several friends in the first film, learned more\lost more in the second, then grew emotionally, saved millions of lives, and redeemed Vader in the third.
He could have respectfully handed it back to her and expressed why he dismissed her ideas and her quest. Rian instead went for shock value over depth and emotion. That was very disappointing for me.
The saber toss thing was stupid. I agree with you about the problems of not having a plan.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
I disagree.
I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ
I thought he was using a Jedi mind trick there.
^ more proof that the cause of his death was unclear.
ok, I missed that. But still, it could have been made clearer.
Why?
We are talking about the death of Luke f-ing Skywalker. There shouldn’t be any confusion over his death.
It’s not the movies fault that you missed an important detail.
I missed it cause it isn’t there.
Uhh, what?
the important detail(s) explaining what Luke was doing and whatnot. It wasn’t there.
It was clearly shown that he did not interact with the salt.
EDIT: Not sure about the image policy, so I’ll just put them in quotes and pretend that it makes a difference.
Kylo:
Luke:
Maybe some people are super duper observant, but that’s a detail which I doubt many people noticed. And frankly, it isn’t an important detail. It was a nice touch but that’s it.
I agree, but it is there. Regardless, it doesn’t matter, because it doesn’t need an explanation in the first place.
It doesn’t? Sorry but I like to know what the heck is going on when I watch a movie.
That is not clearly explained in movie, and why was he “going to die anyway”?
sorry not buying it.
This is not clearly explained in the movie either.
Not good enough, I was confused by the whole thing and I sure I’m not the only one.
There were no real lightsaber fights.
Sorry, Warb, but I’m gonna have to disagree with you on all of these. Well, I don’t disagree that there are no real lightsaber fights. I freely admit that. But I loved the fact that there wasn’t. I’m so sick of the formula of them. Luke’s non-fight with Kylo was better and more impressive than any actual fight could have been.
I didn’t think it was all that impressive.
It’s a Star Wars movie. There should be a lightsaber fight.
As for the rest, I dunno, it made perfect sense to me. You mentioned something about your viewing experience, but I don’t know what thread it’s in.
It is in the b****ing thread in the off topic section.
Maybe it distracted you. But all the visions between Kylo and Rey made it very obvious (maybe too obvious?)
All I can say is that it wasn’t obvious to me, especially the cause of Luke’s death.
to me what was going on the MOMENT Luke appeared on Krayt. I guessed immediately that he was just a vision too, especially given how different he looked. But I thought that whole idea was fantastic, that Luke completely demoralized the First Order without resorting to any measure of violence. He simply outsmarted them. That was probably my favorite part of the whole movie and made The Force feel truly mystical to me for, really, the first time since the original film.
Meh.
This:
was totally unnecessary and was only added to sell toys.
So was this, if you remember. 😉
True, but at least the Ewoks were put to better use. All that thing did in TLJ was hang around and look cute.
ok, I missed that. But still, it could have been made clearer.
Why? Some of the clues were there - the lack of salt moving, and the fact the Luke avoids Kylo, but does not actually interact with him in the fight. I actually thought they were showing how light and elegant Luke fought compared to how heavy and clumsy Kylo fought, but once I saw Luke was projecting I saw that the clues were there.
BUT>>>>
The movie also showed that projections can be interacted with - the dice were held by others if I recall.
Also, Snoke can Force Choke from across the Galaxy - why not Luke?
Jedi don’t Force choke?
Tell that to the Pigman ROTJ Luke choked.
Nice catch. Luke was clearly falling to the Dark Side even then. 😉
Luke fell to the Dark aside?
ok, I missed that. But still, it could have been made clearer.
Why? Some of the clues were there - the lack of salt moving, and the fact the Luke avoids Kylo, but does not actually interact with him in the fight. I actually thought they were showing how light and elegant Luke fought compared to how heavy and clumsy Kylo fought, but once I saw Luke was projecting I saw that the clues were there.
BUT>>>>
The movie also showed that projections can be interacted with - the dice were held by others if I recall.
Also, Snoke can Force Choke from across the Galaxy - why not Luke?
Jedi don’t Force choke?
Tell that to the Pigman ROTJ Luke choked.
I don’t recall Luke choking anyone in ROTJ
I’m really hoping they don’t kill Leia off. I want at least one of the big three to just be able to retire happily rather than dying for the cause. We’ve already had two die for the cause. I want Leia to have stepped back with her head held high, convinced she’s paid her dues for the cause, and ready to leave everything in the capable hands of the next generation. Then I want her to retire to the Star Wars equivalent of Risa and spend her remaining years being tended to by a hunky cabana boy.
They could easily say all of that in dialogue. =P
Seeing how the resistance lost so many people in TLJ, I have a difficult time believing that she’d just step back.
ok, I missed that. But still, it could have been made clearer.
It’s not the movies fault that you missed an important detail.
I missed it cause it isn’t there.
Uhh, what?
the important detail(s) explaining what Luke was doing and whatnot. It wasn’t there.
why is that good?
It wasn’t explained because it didn’t need to be, Rian did a very good job at showing and not telling. It was shown when Luke dragged his foot across the salt without making a mark.
Not good enough, I was confused by the whole thing and I sure I’m not the only one.
What would the alternative be? Should Luke have been phasing through walls? Should Luke have turned to the camera and told the audience that he was a projection?
Not sure, but it should have clearer to the viewer what was happening. It should have somehow been made clear that it was a projection, that he couldn’t kill Ren and that Ren couldn’t kill him, and that was making the projection that killed Luke not Ren.
It’s not the movies fault that you missed an important detail.
I missed it cause it isn’t there.
Warbler, you seem to think that this movie should have been made to please your every wish.
Would be nice if someone would do that for me, but obviously that is not going to happen.
Why did he stand there and let Kilo Ren kill him?
Kylo Ren didn’t kill him, the force projection was incredibly draining and he was going to die anyway.
That is not clearly explained in movie, and why was he “going to die anyway”?
Not explained, but recall how he looked and acted when he “awoke” on Ach-To. The projection took an immense amount of energy, enough to kill him. When I say he was “going to die anyway,” I mean that whether or not Kylo swung at him, he was going to die when he awoke.
sorry not buying it.
and why didn’t he try to kill Kilo Ren right there?
He couldn’t. IIRC he wasn’t able to physically interact with the world, at least not to that extent, he was just a projection.
This is not clearly explained in the movie either.
It wasn’t explained because it didn’t need to be, Rian did a very good job at showing and not telling. It was shown when Luke dragged his foot across the salt without making a mark.
Not good enough, I was confused by the whole thing and I sure I’m not the only one.
Alright; take it up with Rian, then.
ok.
There were no real lightsaber fights.
Yes, it was Regal.
Why did he stand there and let Kilo Ren kill him?
Kylo Ren didn’t kill him, the force projection was incredibly draining and he was going to die anyway.
That is not clearly explained in movie, and why was he “going to die anyway”?
Not explained, but recall how he looked and acted when he “awoke” on Ach-To. The projection took an immense amount of energy, enough to kill him. When I say he was “going to die anyway,” I mean that whether or not Kylo swung at him, he was going to die when he awoke.
sorry not buying it.
and why didn’t he try to kill Kilo Ren right there?
He couldn’t. IIRC he wasn’t able to physically interact with the world, at least not to that extent, he was just a projection.
This is not clearly explained in the movie either.
It wasn’t explained because it didn’t need to be, Rian did a very good job at showing and not telling. It was shown when Luke dragged his foot across the salt without making a mark.
Not good enough, I was confused by the whole thing and I sure I’m not the only one.
This:
was totally unnecessary and was only added to sell toys.
I also don’t buy that this one ship could keep its distance from The First Order fleet and that its shields could take so much pounding.
Warbler said:
Also could argue that Vader was going to kill Obiwan in the end anyway due to Obiwan being so old at the time of the fight.You raise a lot of good questions, Warbler. I’m only pulling this particular point out to note that Mark Hammill is 66 years old while Alec Guinness was 63 in 1977.
I didn’t realize that Mark Hammill is older than Alec Guinness was in 1977.
In case, one could argue the Ren is not Vader and Luke is more powerful now than Obiwan was in ANH. I don’t think Obiwan could pull off that projection trick, and he didn’t inherit from “the chosen one” like Luke did.
So Rey’s parents were nobodies, just ordinary people? Then how did she before force sensitive? Wouldn’t it make more sense for at least one of her parents to be force sensitive?
Why is there this idea that force-sensitivity can only be passed down? Sure, it seems to be genetic, but clearly that’s not the only way someone becomes force-sensitive.
true, but she is quite force sensitive. I mean look at what she in TFA without any training.
Why did he stand there and let Kilo Ren kill him?
Kylo Ren didn’t kill him, the force projection was incredibly draining and he was going to die anyway.
That is not clearly explained in movie, and why was he “going to die anyway”?
Why didn’t he make the fight last as long as possible, giving the resistance more time to escape
They did escape, didn’t they? No need to delay longer than that.
no reason not to either. The longer he delays, the further away they can get.
and why didn’t he try to kill Kilo Ren right there?
He couldn’t. IIRC he wasn’t able to physically interact with the world, at least not to that extent, he was just a projection.
This is not clearly explained in the movie either.
