Vaderisnothayden said:
Zero depth =bad movie. The love story was plastic.
I would disagree I do see depth in it. It is not super deep, but it is there. I think you have a misconception that a movie must be deep to be good. I disagree. It certainly helps, but I lot of things add up to decide whether or not a movie is good. Story, soundtrack, comedy, performances, characters, direction, action, etc. lots of stuff. I think you are falling into a trap saying "well if it doesn't have any depth, it must not be good". under that line of thinking alot of otherwise great westerns, comedies, action and adventure movies and sometimes dramas get labeled as bad. Amount of depth, imho is only one part of a very large and very complex equation as to what makes a movie good or bad.
Vaderisnothayden said:
Millions of people thought the world was flat, thought racism was good, and sexism, etc. Millions of people liking something in no way says it's good.
yes, the majority isn't always right, that is why I said "there is a good chance" not a 100% certainly.
Vaderisnothayden said:
Khan is supposed to Indian? I never got that.
Yes. Khan Noonien Singh. Yes, he's Indian. As in from India.
I stand corrected then.
Vaderisnothayden said:
well if its so obvious, how come you are first person in the years since its released that I've run into that feels this way about Montalban's performance?
Because people are subconsciously motivated to copy each others' views. I'm not the only person who feels this way about Montalban's performance, but I do know that a lot of Trek fans feel the way you do.
I wasn't copying anyone else views. I formed my own, when I first watched the movie and then re-watched it over and over and over again as a kid.
Vaderisnothayden said:
TOS is crap???? to me and every other TOS fan, that is blasphemous. It is certainly not crap. Are the special effects crap? maybe. But you have to realize they were made in the 60's and they didn't have much of a budget. I find many of the episodes have a powerful message. Take City on The Edge Of Forever. That is certainly not crap. I don't how you can call TOS crap. If it was, explain how 5 series and 11 movies have come out of it.
As you are probably aware by now, I don't care whether or not an opinion is blasphemous by the view of some group or not. I choose the views that seem right to me, not the ones other people approve of. The special effects are a small part of the problem with TOS. I couldn't care less whether the episodes have a powerful message or not. I don't feel messages necessarily add to the quality of art. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't and sometimes they actually take from the quality of art. City on the Edge of Forever is sorely overrated. You don't know how I can call TOS crap, but I don't know how anybody can watch that stuff and not think "This is shitty". It's good-natured crap. It has some good ideas. It has some good character interaction and Nimoy was great in it. It was politically advanced for its time and may have had a positive cultural influence, quite apart from leading to some good spinoffs. But it's still crap. That's just the reality of it. How somebody can be a fulll fan of that show now and think it's on the overall good is something I can't fathom. I'm not saying all this to bother you. This is just what I believe. You are perfectly entitled to like TOS and think it's good if you want to, but don't expect me to.
wow. all I can say it that we are miles and miles apart in our opinions of TOS. wow.
Vaderisnothayden said:
If it was, explain how 5 series and 11 movies have come out of it.
Well, as I have said, something being popular doesn't mean it's good. All you need to get 5 shows and 11 movies is for Trek to be popular and then you have the motivation to make more and continue the franchise. But Trek evolved. The movies eventually improved on TOS and then there was TNG, which was a far superior show, and then the 90s Trek evolved out of that, which had good stuff. But I've no illusions about the quality of the show it all evolved out of. When I watch TOS it's solely for Nimoy's excellent performances.
true popular does not equal good. But, its doesn't equal bad either. I think was it does equal is there being a greater than 50% chance of being good. There has to be a reason why something it popular, and its not always because we're all lemmings
Vaderisnothayden said: You'd be surprised how much herd thinking is behind human thinking. It has an effect far beyond what people think. People are far more susceptible to it than they realize. It's not a simplistic argument at all.
I would sort of agree with that. My father has an old saying "the mob is easily led". But I pretty certain that I have formed my own opinions on Star Trek II, I am not following "herd thinking"
Vaderisnothayden said:
I wouldn't be so sure about the views of 98% of people who've seen the films. I don't think you can have knowledge of that high a percentage and nor do I think you have grounds to guess the views of that high a percentage. I wouldn't be so sure that "almost no one else" agrees with my view.
maybe not, but I do think you say most people do not agree with your view. I think we can be sure of the views of I'd say 50%-70% of the people you've seen the films.
Vaderisnothayden said:
There are so many crap films that a lot of people believe are good.
in your opinion.
Vaderisnothayden said: Among fans. There are so many casual moviegoers out there who don't talk about the films at conventions or on message boards or whatnot.
most of these casual movie goers may not have seen the film.
Vaderisnothayden said: Exactly, in ST circles. Where people are just perfectly set up to have their views influenced by other ST fans. What about outside ST circles? Some ordinary moviegoer who goes to a Trek movie -they have opinions too and you don't know all their opinions. They're the ones least likely to make special exceptions for Trek movies and tolerate shit like Khan.
oh, I think you'd be surprised to find out what they think of Khan. I be very surprised to find out they thought Khan was "awful beyond belief" or that Montalban's performance was "stomach turning".
Vaderisnothayden said: I'm going to stop debating the herd mentality thing, because people won't appreciate the argument much
yeah you're right. I don't appreciate that argument to much. I am not a lemming. I make up my own mind about things. I listen to Sinatra style music. I started doing so when I was a kid. I guarantee you very few others in my school listened to my kind of music and I didn't appreciate the kinds of music they did listen too, I still don't. I also have my hair in a very conservative style for someone my age. I had it that way when I was in high school when long hair for guys was in style. It was not a popular hair style. I don't do things because the majority do it. Does what the majority do have an affect on me? yeah. I'm also sure it has an affect on you. But this idea that we much all be lemmings is comes off as arrogant. As zombie said "everyone else is crazy and you're not". Isn't just possible that when the majority likes something, that you don't, that maybe just maybe, they are seeing something that you are missing, that you are in the wrong and not them. Isn't that a possibility?
<---Ric