Warbler

moviefreakedmind said:

Warbler said:

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess you aren’t reading the stories I’ve been posting.

Not all of them, but I’m pretty sure I know what’s in them.

Lol.

I’ve heard it all before. There’s something about an old man born in the '20s who doesn’t have a birth certificate, something about students living out of state, and something about how it costs money to get an ID. I’ve heard it all before and I get the gist of it all. I don’t have time to read a bunch of stuff that I don’t care about. I just don’t think it’s unreasonable to have to show an ID to vote.

I guess you don’t care if old men born in the 1920’s who don’t have a birth certificate can vote. I guess you don’t care if students who live out of state who it would cost too much money to get an ID, can vote. I guess you don’t care if all the other with difficulties getting ID can vote.

I’m not even in favor of those laws, I just don’t think they’re unreasonable.

If you don’t think the ID laws are unreasonable why aren’t you in favor of them?

Yeah, of course. That’s always the answer, right? “You don’t care. You’re mean. You hate people.”

That is the way your previous post read.

btw, if you care, why did you dismiss the stories Frink listed without even reading them?

No. I was also saying that while having absolutely no important documents makes it a longer process to get a photo ID, it still isn’t impossible, and since you should really have copies of those documents anyway it’d be a good idea for them to get them.

The process can be more than longer, it can be costlier. The question isn’t whether it is possible or not. The question is, is the process too hard and/or too costly for poor, minorities, and elder to make it a requirement in order to vote? Is process so hard and so costly to some people, that to make it a requirement to vote is violation of their Constitutional rights. Apparently, you don’t think it is all that important to find out whether or not this is the case. You don’t seem to worried about making this fair to the poor, minorities, elder, and etc. At least is my take from your posts and your attitude on the subject.

btw, you didn’t answer if:

I just don’t think they’re unreasonable.

why this?

I’m not even in favor of those laws,

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Okay. I will try one more time

Let us say there are 2 people. Person A and person B. They are registered in different polling places. Now, lets say person B for whatever doesn’t vote. What is to stop person A from going to his own polling place, vote and then going to person B’s polling place and lie and say he was person B and then vote again? Without requiring IDs, what is to stop that? How would person A get caught?

As I’ve already said… nothing.

If person-A knew person-B’s name, knew with certainty that they were not going to vote, knew at what polling station they were registered to vote, knew what their voting intentions were and knew that person-B was not known to the officials at the polling station (not unlikely in my experience)… then yeah they could commit the perfect crime and nobody would know.

You have a point here. (However person A would not need to know person B’s voting intentions, only that he wasn’t going to vote)

If your intent was to change a persons vote from party-A to party-B, it could matter that you selected a target that wasn’t going to vote for party-B already. Otherwise you potentially aren’t a very effective election fraudster.

The party thing would only matter in primaries, not general elections.

Handman said:

Warbler said:

This is isn’t about swinging an election.

I thought that was the major concern/result of voter fraud?

I don’t know what the major concern of others are, but me its the integrity of one person - one vote, and no one deciding what to do with someone else’s vote. I think the probability of such fraud swinging an election is rather remote, but voter fraud is still voter fraud. It is the principal that I care about. But again at moment, requiring ID seems to be unfair to the poor, minorities, and the elderly, so I am against it at the moment.

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Okay. I will try one more time

Let us say there are 2 people. Person A and person B. They are registered in different polling places. Now, lets say person B for whatever doesn’t vote. What is to stop person A from going to his own polling place, vote and then going to person B’s polling place and lie and say he was person B and then vote again? Without requiring IDs, what is to stop that? How would person A get caught?

As I’ve already said… nothing.

If person-A knew person-B’s name, knew with certainty that they were not going to vote, knew at what polling station they were registered to vote, knew what their voting intentions were and knew that person-B was not known to the officials at the polling station (not unlikely in my experience)… then yeah they could commit the perfect crime and nobody would know.

You have a point here. (However person A would not need to know person B’s voting intentions, only that he wasn’t going to vote)

How is that one person-A going to swing an election unless they’ve got all that info on more than person-b?

This is isn’t about swinging an election.

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess you aren’t reading the stories I’ve been posting.

Not all of them, but I’m pretty sure I know what’s in them.

Lol.

I’ve heard it all before. There’s something about an old man born in the '20s who doesn’t have a birth certificate, something about students living out of state, and something about how it costs money to get an ID. I’ve heard it all before and I get the gist of it all. I don’t have time to read a bunch of stuff that I don’t care about. I just don’t think it’s unreasonable to have to show an ID to vote.

I guess you don’t care if old men born in the 1920’s who don’t have a birth certificate can vote. I guess you don’t care if students who live out of state who it would cost too much money to get an ID, can vote. I guess you don’t care if all the other with difficulties getting ID can vote.

I’m not even in favor of those laws, I just don’t think they’re unreasonable.

If you don’t think the ID laws are unreasonable why aren’t you in favor of them?

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You seem to be arguing for both sides warb I’m a bit confused.

I guess you haven’t been reading my posts.

Probably not, but I’m not gonna let that stop me from replying to individual things you’ve said out of context.

What things have I said out of context?

*sigh*

?

Okay. I will try one more time

Let us say there are 2 people. Person A and person B. They are registered in different polling places. Now, lets say person B for whatever doesn’t vote. What is to stop person A from going to his own polling place, vote and then going to person B’s polling place and lie and say he was person B and then vote again? Without requiring IDs, what is to stop that? How would person A get caught?

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Why do you need voter ID?

If I go to the polling station in the UK, I could bring along an ID, a passport, a birth-certificate, a drivers-license and 6ft-tall-portrait of myself in oils and I still wouldn’t be able to fraudulently vote because if my name wasn’t on their list, they wouldn’t give me a ballot a paper. They don’t ask for any sort of identification because they have no need to.

Tell me what is to stop someone else from claiming to you and voting in your place?

Nothing… but then when I went to vote soon after, the polling station would know somebody had voted fraudulently instantaneously (because my name would already be crossed off the list they had at the polling station).

What if you decided not to vote for whatever reason, If that happened, some could vote under your name and they’d never get caught. Also if you are required to have ID, how are they going to tell the fake you from the real you?

If it happened more than once they could conceivably re-run the election but nobody bothers because the fraud would be so obvious to everybody. Nobody would be able to swing an election by pretending to be other people.

Warbler said:

What would stop you from voting with your own vote and going to another polling place and claim to be someone else and vote twice?

I wouldn’t be on the list at another polling station, so it wouldn’t be possible to vote twice.

I guess you missed the part where I said “claim to be someone else”.

Like I said, it ain’t gonna happen because of the near certainty of being caught.

How would you get caught?

The act, not the person in the way I already described.

My general point is, it comes down to a choice between…

1. ID-card required = Near 100% vote security and massive suppression of turnout (skewed heavily towards certain demographics)
2. No ID-card required = Near 100% vote security and minimum restriction of turnout (with no specific demographic effected)

Number 2 gets my vote (wink) every time.

I’d continue this conversation, but I get the idea that you are reading my posts. So, I see no point in that.

Of course he’s reading your posts. You don’t want him to?

I made a typo in the post you are quoting, it has now been fixed. Please re-read the post.

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

I get the idea that you are reading my posts

That is correct.

I made a typo in the post you are quoting, it has now been fixed. Please re-read the post.

Possessed said:

Warbler said:

Possessed said:

You seem to be arguing for both sides warb I’m a bit confused.

I guess you haven’t been reading my posts.

Probably not, but I’m not gonna let that stop me from replying to individual things you’ve said out of context.

What things have I said out of context?

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Why do you need voter ID?

If I go to the polling station in the UK, I could bring along an ID, a passport, a birth-certificate, a drivers-license and 6ft-tall-portrait of myself in oils and I still wouldn’t be able to fraudulently vote because if my name wasn’t on their list, they wouldn’t give me a ballot a paper. They don’t ask for any sort of identification because they have no need to.

Tell me what is to stop someone else from claiming to you and voting in your place?

Nothing… but then when I went to vote soon after, the polling station would know somebody had voted fraudulently instantaneously (because my name would already be crossed off the list they had at the polling station).

What if you decided not to vote for whatever reason, If that happened, some could vote under your name and they’d never get caught. Also if you are required to have ID, how are they going to tell the fake you from the real you?

If it happened more than once they could conceivably re-run the election but nobody bothers because the fraud would be so obvious to everybody. Nobody would be able to swing an election by pretending to be other people.

Warbler said:

What would stop you from voting with your own vote and going to another polling place and claim to be someone else and vote twice?

I wouldn’t be on the list at another polling station, so it wouldn’t be possible to vote twice.

I guess you missed the part where I said “claim to be someone else”.

Like I said, it ain’t gonna happen because of the near certainty of being caught.

How would you get caught?

The act, not the person in the way I already described.

My general point is, it comes down to a choice between…

1. ID-card required = Near 100% vote security and massive suppression of turnout (skewed heavily towards certain demographics)
2. No ID-card required = Near 100% vote security and minimum restriction of turnout (with no specific demographic effected)

Number 2 gets my vote (wink) every time.

I’d continue this conversation, but I get the idea that you aren’t reading my posts. So, I see no point in that.

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Why do you need voter ID?

If I go to the polling station in the UK, I could bring along an ID, a passport, a birth-certificate, a drivers-license and 6ft-tall-portrait of myself in oils and I still wouldn’t be able to fraudulently vote because if my name wasn’t on their list, they wouldn’t give me a ballot a paper. They don’t ask for any sort of identification because they have no need to.

Tell me what is to stop someone else from claiming to you and voting in your place?

Nothing… but then when I went to vote soon after, the polling station would know somebody had voted fraudulently instantaneously (because my name would already be crossed off the list they had at the polling station).

What if you decided not to vote for whatever reason, If that happened, some could vote under your name and they’d never get caught. Also if you are required to have ID, how are they going to tell the fake you from the real you?

If it happened more than once they could conceivably re-run the election but nobody bothers because the fraud would be so obvious to everybody. Nobody would be able to swing an election by pretending to be other people.

Warbler said:

What would stop you from voting with your own vote and going to another polling place and claim to be someone else and vote twice?

I wouldn’t be on the list at another polling station, so it wouldn’t be possible to vote twice.

I guess you missed the part where I said “claim to be someone else”.

Like I said, it ain’t gonna happen because of the near certainty of being caught.

How would you get caught?

If enough people committed fraud to swing an election, they’d know and re-run it, if there weren’t enough to effect the election it doesn’t matter anyway. Either way it’s not a problem. Election fraud really isn’t a big deal under a reasonably rational system with public oversight. The people in office lobbying for voter-ID want it for another reason.

Well, their reasoning is not mine.

Possessed said:

You seem to be arguing for both sides warb I’m a bit confused.

I guess you haven’t been reading my posts. I’d for requiring an ID to vote, if it were easy enough and cheap enough to obtain one and easy enough and cheap enough to obtain all the things needed to obtain an ID. Right now, this is not the case. It is too hard for the poor, minorities and the elderly to obtain these things. Therefore, right now I am against requiring an ID to vote. But, once it is made easier and cheaper, I will be all for the idea.

moviefreakedmind said:

Those are all things that people should have though so maybe they should get on that.

well sure . . . unless you’re poor and they cost hundreds of dollars like Frink was saying.

I’m not even worried about voter fraud in person, I think it’s almost negligible, I just don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to have to show an ID to vote.

If you are not worried about voter fraud in person, why do you want to require that people have ID to vote.

Ryan McAvoy said:

Warbler said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Why do you need voter ID?

If I go to the polling station in the UK, I could bring along an ID, a passport, a birth-certificate, a drivers-license and 6ft-tall-portrait of myself in oils and I still wouldn’t be able to fraudulently vote because if my name wasn’t on their list, they wouldn’t give me a ballot a paper. They don’t ask for any sort of identification because they have no need to.

Tell me what is to stop someone else from claiming to you and voting in your place?

Nothing… but then when I went to vote soon after, the polling station would know somebody had voted fraudulently instantaneously (because my name would already be crossed off the list they had at the polling station).

What if you decided not to vote for whatever reason, If that happened, some could vote under your name and they’d never get caught. Also if you are required to have ID, how are they going to tell the fake you from the real you?

If it happened more than once they could conceivably re-run the election but nobody bothers because the fraud would be so obvious to everybody. Nobody would be able to swing an election by pretending to be other people.

Warbler said:

What would stop you from voting with your own vote and going to another polling place and claim to be someone else and vote twice?

I wouldn’t be on the list at another polling station, so it wouldn’t be possible to vote twice.

I guess you missed the part where I said “claim to be someone else”.

TV’s Frink said:

Like I said earlier (and every time this subject comes up), in-person voter fraud in the US is extraordinarily rare. Voter ID is nothing more than a Republican attempt to reduce Democrat votes.

It may be rarely, but I don’t think it is a bad idea to make sure only person A and use person A’s vote. I’d have no problem if it weren’t too difficult and costly for the poor, minorities, and the elderly.

Ryan McAvoy said:

Why do you need voter ID?

If I go to the polling station in the UK, I could bring along an ID, a passport, a birth-certificate, a drivers-license and 6ft-tall-portrait of myself in oils and I still wouldn’t be able to fraudulently vote because if my name wasn’t on their list, they wouldn’t give me a ballot a paper. They don’t ask for any sort of identification because they have no need to.

Tell me what is to stop someone else from claiming to you and voting in your place? What would stop you from voting with your own vote and going to another polling place and claim to be someone else and vote twice? That is the point of ID. It is to make sure people are who they say they are, so no one can vote using someone else’s vote. It would be fine if it were easy and cheap enough to obtain the required ID and all the things needed to obtain the required ID, unfortunately that isn’t the case right now it seems. If and when it is, I will support requiring an ID to vote.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

A follow up on the story I posted earlier about a local High School performing Ragtime and the local NAACP people being upset about the use of the N-word:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/Ragtime-Star-Visits-Cherry-Hill-High-School-.html

I thought the uproar was ridiculous. I mean, did these people oject to the use of the n-word in Roots? Do you know how I came to understand why the n-word is so bad? It is because, as a child, I watched Roots. It taught me all I needed to know about that word.

It’s a high school Warb. When was the last time you saw a high school put on a performance of Roots?

Well never, because no one has ever turned it into a play. It was however shown in my history class one year(11th grade, I think).

You miss the point. Performing it is a lot different than watching it.

So you think it if were made into a play it would be wrong to perform it in Highschools even though Root is designed to teach the horrors of slavery and racism?

People object to a lot of things in high school plays. When I was in high school we did Rent but had to use a somewhat censored version.

Yeah, these things do happen in High School I suppose. But I do have to wonder if the same complaints would make if the production was at a local community theater(not owned by the government) instead.

Well considering there have been local community productions of Ragtime without complaints, I wouldn’t be so sure.

Okay.

DominicCobb said:

Warbler said:

A follow up on the story I posted earlier about a local High School performing Ragtime and the local NAACP people being upset about the use of the N-word:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/Ragtime-Star-Visits-Cherry-Hill-High-School-.html

I thought the uproar was ridiculous. I mean, did these people oject to the use of the n-word in Roots? Do you know how I came to understand why the n-word is so bad? It is because, as a child, I watched Roots. It taught me all I needed to know about that word.

It’s a high school Warb. When was the last time you saw a high school put on a performance of Roots?

Well never, because no one has ever turned it into a play. It was however shown in my history class one year(11th grade, I think).

People object to a lot of things in high school plays. When I was in high school we did Rent but had to use a somewhat censored version.

Yeah, these things do happen in High School I suppose. But I do have to wonder if the same complaints would make if the production was at a local community theater(not owned by the government) instead.

TV’s Frink said:

Read some of the stuff I posted previously. Sometimes it’s not the ID itself but the things you need to get in order to prove who you are so you can then get that ID.

And regardless, there have been countless studies showing that voter fraud, and especially in-person voter fraud, is many times less likely than people not being able to obtain ID, so we should err on the side of letting as many eligible people vote as possible.

Maybe what we should do is concentrate on seeing if we can make it easy enough and cheap enough to obtain an ID and obtain the things you need to get in order to prove who you are so you can an ID, and then maybe require ID to vote. I think I like the idea of making sure people are who they say they are before letting them vote, but I don’t like the idea of the poor, minorities, and elderly being disenfranchised.

A follow up on the story I posted earlier about a local High School performing Ragtime and the local NAACP people being upset about the use of the N-word:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_jersey/Ragtime-Star-Visits-Cherry-Hill-High-School-.html

I thought the uproar was ridiculous. I mean, did these people oject to the use of the n-word in Roots? Do you know how I came to understand why the n-word is so bad? It is because, as a child, I watched Roots. It taught me all I needed to know about that word.

TV’s Frink said:

I’m curious where poor people are supposed to get hundreds of dollars…but I suppose that’s just anecdotal.

It takes some people hundreds of dollars to obtain an ID? I didn’t think it would cost that much.

TV’s Frink said:

Jesus.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/322337-trump-accuses-obama-of-wiretapping-trump-tower

They need to declare him insane and take away his powers of office. It can be done. The cabinet and Congress need to approve it. Pence would then become acting President until such time as Trump would be declare fit for duty.

moviefreakedmind said:

TV’s Frink said:

So…these people are lying, or lazy, or both?

I think it’s anecdotal. I don’t doubt that it’s difficult depending on the situation, but I also find it hard to believe that anyone would be unable to get an ID before the next presidential election in 4 years.

I guess you missed my previous post. What about the other elections that take place every November? What about primaries? They don’t really have 4 years to get an ID.

Jeebus said:

Some Star Wars related political stories;

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/1/stormtrooper-costumes-banned-from-star-wars-themed/

Now THIS is political correctness gone too far.