Warbler

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

It actually specifically makes the opposite clear. The Narada created a divergent timeline that they call “an alternate reality”. The Prime universe is still there, untouched (just without Romulus). See also: Star Trek Online, which continues in a post-Romulus Prime timeline.

No where in Star Trek 2009 does it say that the Narada went to a different universe, it just went back in time and changed history.

SPOCK: You are assuming that Nero knows how events are predicted to unfold. To the contrary, Nero’s very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
UHURA: An alternate reality?
SPOCK: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

If the writers meant for it to wipe out the Prime timeline (which they specifically say they didn’t), they would not have had them describe it IN THE MOVIE as an alternate reality. There are enough changes in the prologue of the movie to show that it might be a completely alternate universe, like another Mirror Universe.

I read that to mean that the Narada went back in time and changed history and thereby turned the Prime universe into the Kelvin. It is like Yesterday’s Enterprise.

Me, right now

As for Discovery, it takes place in the Prime timeline. Nothing about the content of the plot has contradicted anything in the timeline that I can see. The visual changes should not be explained away in-universe, like Enterprise tried to do with the Augment Virus. This is how it looks in a show made in 2017, just as it should. As fun as the fan films are with their 100% accurate sets and makeup, that isn’t want a modern trek should be. It SHOULD be pushing the envelope for effects and prosthetics and telling stories that are relevant to today, and you know what, Discovery is doing exactly that.

I disagree. If you want it to be “how it looks in a show made in 2017”, then call it a total reboot, totally having nothing to do with the original cannon. But if you are going to put it in the original cannon, it should look like it.

Do you have this problem with Enterprise?

Yes.

Do you accept that the Refit Enterprise in TMP is the same ship as the original, even though every detail of her is different?

Yes. You can take an old house and change all the carpeting and wall paper and furniture and knock out a wall here or there and add or room here or there and make it look entirely different. There differences between the TOS Enterprise and the TMP Enterprise is explained by the refit. I however have a problem with the how different the Enterprise A is in Star Trek V as compared to the end of Star Trek IV. No refit was talked about it wouldn’t seem one would be necessary.

How do you feel about Cardassians and Trill changing between TNG and DS9?

I don’t like it. But still those changes aren’t anywhere near as drastic as what occurred with the Klingons in Discovery.

They’re all in the Prime universe, but each one has a different spin on how things look because that’s how you make television.

perhaps, but it doesn’t make sense canon-wise.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

AGAIN, Which version of events in Superman II is canon? The official theatrical edit, or the official director’s edit?

Is the Donner edit considered an official director’s edit?

Yes. https://www.amazon.com/Superman-II-Richard-Donner-Cut/dp/B000IJ79WU

hmm, in that case, I am not sure which is official canon.

deleted.

TV’s Frink said:

Ah so you just like to complain. 😉

Also it’s “canon.”

Not in my pretend cannon.

chyron8472 said:

Why can’t I decide, given the evidence with which I’m presented, that Discovery is logically not a part of the Prime Timeline?

Well what are you going to do if/when other characters from the Prime Timeline appear in new episodes of Discovery? Pretend those episodes don’t exist?

TV’s Frink said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

but it is not.

It’s called “headcanon.”

As far as I’m concerned, Padme Amidala does not die during the events of Revenge of the Sith. And I have two different cuts of that film and a quote from Leia in ROTJ to back it up.

George’s “official” explanation can stick it.

um, I’ve watched that film mulple times. Including when it first came out in the theaters. I am sorry to say that she did die. I agree it would have made more sense if she hadn’t. But she did. They even held a funeral for her, where her dead body is visible. I don’t know how you get around that.

Because I have two different fanedits that splice in a scene after the Blockade Runner lands on Alderaan, where Natalie Portman is seen crying and cradling a newborn baby. Then, in Return of the Jedi, Luke asks Leia “Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?” and she responds “She was… very beautiful. Kind…but, sad.”

As much as I would like pretend that fanedit cannon is the official cannon, I can’t.

Why? Why do you have to be so rigid that you can’t accept something that isn’t “official.” Especially if it makes more sense and/or you like it better?

Because I am me, and official canon is official canon and pretend canon is pretend. Also I can’t complain when something new doesn’t agree with my pretend canon, but I can complain when it doesn’t agree with official canon.

chyron8472 said:

AGAIN, Which version of events in Superman II is canon? The official theatrical edit, or the official director’s edit?

Is the Donner edit considered an official director’s edit?

doubleofive said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

It actually specifically makes the opposite clear. The Narada created a divergent timeline that they call “an alternate reality”. The Prime universe is still there, untouched (just without Romulus). See also: Star Trek Online, which continues in a post-Romulus Prime timeline.

No where in Star Trek 2009 does it say that the Narada went to a different universe, it just went back in time and changed history.

As for Discovery, it takes place in the Prime timeline. Nothing about the content of the plot has contradicted anything in the timeline that I can see. The visual changes should not be explained away in-universe, like Enterprise tried to do with the Augment Virus. This is how it looks in a show made in 2017, just as it should. As fun as the fan films are with their 100% accurate sets and makeup, that isn’t want a modern trek should be. It SHOULD be pushing the envelope for effects and prosthetics and telling stories that are relevant to today, and you know what, Discovery is doing exactly that.

I disagree. If you want it to be “how it looks in a show made in 2017”, then call it a total reboot, totally having nothing to do with the original cannon. But if you are going to put it in the original cannon, it should look like it.

chyron8472 said:

Therefore, it makes no sense for Leia’s birth mother to have died in childbirth given Leia’s response.

It is possible. She was a bady. She wouldn’t remember her mother dying(do you remember events that went on around you immediately after you exited the womb?). Some other women could pretend to be her real mother, just like Bail Organa pretended to be her real father and she would never know it.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

but it is not.

It’s called “headcanon.”

As far as I’m concerned, Padme Amidala does not die during the events of Revenge of the Sith. And I have two different cuts of that film and a quote from Leia in ROTJ to back it up.

George’s “official” explanation can stick it.

um, I’ve watched that film mulple times. Including when it first came out in the theaters. I am sorry to say that she did die. I agree it would have made more sense if she hadn’t. But she did. They even held a funeral for her, where her dead body is visible. I don’t know how you get around that.

Because I have two different fanedits that splice in a scene after the Blockade Runner lands on Alderaan, where Natalie Portman is seen crying and cradling a newborn baby. Then, in Return of the Jedi, Luke asks Leia “Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?” and she responds “She was… very beautiful. Kind…but, sad.”

As much as I would like pretend that fanedit cannon is the official cannon, I can’t.

I do not accept the lame excuse that her Force abilities allowed her to gain this imagery from within the womb or from a few seconds of eye contact.

I agree it is lame. Of course how would Luke and Leia know that the woman Leia thought of as her Mother was actually her mother? Neither Obiwan or Yoda tell Luke anything about his amd Leia’s real mother or for that matter the woman that Leia thought of as her mother. Remember Leia didn’t know Bail Organa wasn’t her actual father until Luke told her in ROTJ. It is possible she thought that Bail Organa’s wife was actually her real mother and that is who she was referring to when Luke asked her to describe her real mother. Neither one of them would have any idea who their real mother was or what happened to her or if either ever had any interaction with her.

*sigh*

SilverWook said:

I’d love to see some documentation from the '60’s where making the Klingons look more alien was actually discussed. A lot of production memos and such still exist. It’s not that the capability wasn’t there, (look at the Tellarites or the Andorians) but the expense of doing a large group of Klingons would have wreaked havoc with the budget.

I don’t know if such a discussion actually occurred. But you know they did not have much budget for TOS. You also know there is no way back in the 1960s they could have made the Klingons look as they do in nextgen.

TNG tweaked the Romulan look enough that you have to wonder how Spock can walk around on Romulus unnoticed. 😉

I thought it was stupid to do. Long before the tweak, it was established that Vulcans and Romulans looked alike and had a shared ancestry. Therefore, it makes no sense to tweak the look of the Romulans without tweaking the look of the Vulcans. The look of the Romulans and Vulcans were fine, no need to tweak them.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Warbler said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Warbler said:

These are not Klingons.

These are Klingons.

FTFY

I knew someone was going to bring that up. Clearly when they were doing TOS they didn’t have the capability to make Klingons look like they do in the movies and nextgen and the rest of the tv series’. They eventually explained the difference in appearance in Enterprise. They have not as far as I know explained the appearance of Klingons in Discovery. With the history of the change in the appearance in the cannon already, any attempt to explain this new change in appearance will be far fetched. The change was unnecessary. One could argue the appear of Klingons in TOS looked cheap and clearly they did not have the budget or the capabilities to make Klingons look how the should. The same is not so of the movies and nextgen and the rest of the series’ If they had wanted, they could have make the Klingons look like they do in Discovery. The look of Klingons in the movies and nextgen and the other series’s has become iconic. There was no need to change them. What is next? Giving Vulcans and Romulans square ears instead of the iconic pointed ones? Finally in my opinion, the nextgen Klingons just look better.

Too long, didn’t read.

sheesh! it wasn’t that long! Anyway, if you’re not going to read my posts, don’t respond to them, and certainly don’t expect me to read such a response.

Point is – aside from the Klingons in The Undiscovered Country – all TNG+ Klingons have sucked. And that’s all due to their characterization, not their makeup.

I refuse to read this response.

chyron8472 said:

Star Trek and Stargate both go by the premise that “anything that can happen does happen in alternate quantum realities.” It’s just that the characters from those realities assert that their version of reality is the only one that matters (which is an actual quote from Teal’c.)

The Prime Universe does still exist. As does the universe in Yesterday’s Enterprise and the Mirror Universe. To say that Prime does not exist is to say Mirror does not exist; and the Mirror Universe’s timeline, which is wholly separate from Prime, was accessed repeatedly by Prime characters (and vice versa) during the events of Deep Space Nine, not to mention TOS and Enterprise.

Star Trek 2009 nine makes it clear that the Narada when back in time, altered history and thereby turned the prime universe into the Kelvin universe. There may be an alternate universe that is exactly the same at the prime universe, but it would only be a duplicate universe and not the prime universe. As far as I know, Discovery does not take place in an alternate universe that is a duplicate of the prime universe, it takes place in the prime universe itself.

chyron8472 said:

Warbler said:

but it is not.

It’s called “headcanon.”

As far as I’m concerned, Padme Amidala does not die during the events of Revenge of the Sith. And I have two different cuts of that film and a quote from Leia in ROTJ to back it up.

George’s “official” explanation can stick it.

um, I’ve watched that film mulple times. Including when it first came out in the theaters. I am sorry to say that she did die. I agree it would have made more sense if she hadn’t. But she did. They even held a funeral for her, where her dead body is visible. I don’t know how you get around that.

Fuck you NFL. Philly did a great job hosting the NFL draft. You gave Chicago two drafts in a row. We did much better than Chicago and do you give us another shot? No. You give it to Dallas. Its going to be in their stadium. Good luck getting anywhere near the atmosphere you had in Philly. Fuck you.

TV’s Frink said:

The mother of the soldier who died basically tells Trump to fuck off.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/10/18/totally-fabricated-trump-disputes-congresswomans-depiction-of-his-exchange-with-soldiers-widow/?utm_term=.2422a366b950

The mother of a soldier killed in an ambush in Africa said Wednesday that President Trump “did disrespect my son” with remarks in a condolence telephone call.

Sgt. La David T. Johnson’s mother, Cowanda Jones-Johnson, told The Washington Post that she was present during the call from the White House on Tuesday to Johnson’s widow, Myeshia Johnson. Johnson’s mother also stood by an account of the call from Rep. Frederica S. Wilson (D-Fla.) that Trump told Johnson’s widow that her husband “must have known what he signed up for.”

“President Trump did disrespect my son and my daughter and also me and my husband,” Jones-Johnson said.

Wow, if this is true, how much lower can Trump go?

So how come we’ve never seen this subset of Klingons in any of the series’/movies?

ray_afraid said:

The kligons in TNG look nothing like the ones in TOS. The Discovery design looks much more like the TNG design than TNG/TOS.

Please read my post above addressing this.

If any other show was using the design from Discovery, they’d be blasted for ripping off TNG.

I don’t think so.

It is the truth according to Star Trek 2009.

?

TV’s Frink said:

That’s how “pretend” works, Warb.

We they say this is part of the cannon of the original Trek timeline, so that is how I will consider it.

There is also another problem: I still maintain that the original timeline no longer exists. It was altered by the Narada in Star Trek 2009 and the original timeline became the Kelvin timeline. Therefore Discovery is a tv series in a timeline that no longer exists.

but it is not.

If they don’t want Discovery to be “your daddy’s Star Trek” then call it a reboot. Totally separate it from the original cannon. Don’t say it is part of the same universe and cannon and then change everything.