Vladius

Servii said:

JadedSkywalker said:

It would have been a destruction of the character. But what if we didn’t know who the new Vader was, Luke is missing. at the end of Force Awakens the New Vader removed his mask and its Luke Skywalker. Not Ben Solo.

Reminds me of the “Luke is Kylo Ren” theories floating around before TFA came out. I wasn’t a fan of that idea.

Yeah that’s lame. That’s just as bad as what we got, as far as misunderstanding Luke’s character.

They should have leaned into Kylo Ren worshiping Vader or some kind of cult centered around Vader imitating him. Then either Luke or Anakin’s ghost or both try to convince them that the real Vader was a slave to the dark side and not someone to be imitated or admired but pitied.

Likewise the First Order if anything should have been more of a cargo cult of the Empire or terrorists inspired by the Empire, not more technologically advanced than the Empire.

I think people on the outside are just so enamored of the idea of fanediting and the novelty of it that they don’t know there’s places like this that hash it out and do a better job.

henzINNIT said:

I’ve always found describing Luke as ‘trying to kill Ben’ to be a misrepresentation. Luke tried to kill Vader in ROTJ after being goaded into it, and backed down shortly after. Luke merely considered killing Ben in TLJ, after experiencing a harrowing vision of the destruction the boy would cause, and only for a moment before coming to his senses. These instances seem pretty consistent to me, the latter event being a more extreme but logical extension of the struggle Luke (and jedi generally) had to face. If Luke had actually tried to kill Ben, then Ben would be dead.

OWK puts Ben in similar positions but I’m not sure it knows exactly what to do with him. At the opening of the show, Ben himself is weary and has allowed his abilities to diminish, which is understandable emotionally yet at the same time seems dedicated to protect and train Luke at the earlist convenience. These seem highly contradictory. Once Ben has gotten his groove back, he’s able to defeat Vader and accept Anakin is gone, but will still not put him out of his misery, and is no longer concerned with Luke’s training. Probably a symptom of finding an arc between III and IV when there didn’t need to be one.

He considered it by turning on a very bright, loud energy weapon over him while he slept. Which is either really foolish, or shows it was premeditated. Why is he going in the middle of the night while he’s sleeping anyway? Why not just ask Ben about it or have a mind probe vision while he’s awake? What exactly was the mechanism of Snoke corrupting Ben from a bajillion miles away? What made him turn, and what did Luke know or not know about it? Why is there this very specific level of suspicion where he knew something about it but the moment he knows more about it he needs to draw his weapon and not use it?

There’s so much about that moment that was completely unexplained or just nonsensical. And that’s if you even like the idea of the story.

henzINNIT said:

Jedi aren’t pacifists. They carry deadly weapons. We can expect them to be heroic, and not the aggressors, but they maim and kill when it’s deemed necessary. I get the religious qualities Lucas wove in there, but I feel like we can overthink the rules for an action series where villains die by the hundreds and thousands.

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Telling Luke not to bring weapons into a vision quest is one thing, but you don’t ‘face your fears’ by confronting armed and dangerous evil overlords with no intent to stop them. The villains intended to turn Luke or kill him. Obi-Wan makes it clear that he believes there is no saving Vader. It’s a crazy test to send someone to face a monster, most likely in a fight to the death, just to resist the temptation of evil.

The notion of a simple, flowery personal growth lesson for Luke doesn’t make sense to me. If it was truly only about resisting darkness, why didn’t Luke already pass that test in Empire? He faced Vader, was badly injured, spirit crushed, learned a shocking revelation about his family legacy and still rejected Vader’s offer, choosing to let himself fall rather than taking evil’s hand. Surely that would have been enough if this confrontation was just about Luke’s demons.

The jedi wouldn’t have instructed Luke bring regular people with him to confront these guys. Of course they’re not arranging a ‘special forces’ mission; facing Vader and his boss would mean certain death for untrained people. That doesn’t prove your point at all. Luke wasn’t directly involved in destroying the Death Star, but there’s no reason to assume the villains would have just sat there and exploded without Luke’s appearance. He ensured they died in that battle, which was far more important than destroying another space station.

It’s not like they’re not expecting a fight, including a fight to the death. Clearly they taught Luke how to make his own lightsaber, they trained him how to fight, and Ben does tell him he needs to be able to kill his father. It’s just that that wasn’t the point of telling him to go. He’s there to become a Jedi, not just an assassin.

He absolutely failed in Empire, that was the point. He fell directly into Vader’s trap, he lost the physical fight, and he was consumed by fear. He wasn’t ready for the revelation that Vader was his father, which ties directly to his fears in the vision earlier. We can blame Ben and Yoda for not telling him but it’s unclear if he could have handled it anyway. You’re right that he turned away from Vader’s offer but he was only in that position in the first place because of his own folly, and the only way for him to turn away was to try to commit suicide.
To truly become a Jedi he had to master himself and his emotions, not just his combat potential. Him being crushed and rebuilt is exactly why he has to be tested again.

Actually there is reason to think that. The Emperor is overconfident and thinks that their trap is foolproof. They have the (FULLY OPERATIONAL!) Death Star, and an entire fleet of star destroyers with the Executor, and a planetary shield around the Death Star as well, and a legion of stormtroopers to guard the shield. In any case that’s still the safest place they could be during the space battle. (The other place that Vader would be, would be on the Executor, which also gets blown up.) If the Jedi’s hope for Luke’s ultimate destiny was just to delay them there so that they could be killed on the Death Star that would also be pretty unsatisfying.

My point isn’t the specific mechanics of how they would be killed, it’s that the Jedi weren’t interested in that either. If Luke was really just there to kill them he could have done a much better job in an X-Wing, blowing up the second Death Star just like he blew up the first. No lightsaber or additional Jedi training required. In fact when Luke shows up to the mission he realizes “I’m endangering the mission, I shouldn’t have come,” because it makes Vader more aware of what’s going on.

There is something specific involved with Luke being tested by going after Vader and the Emperor, face-to-face, and it’s not just to kill them.

ADR14NAT1ON said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Would it be fair to say, then, that Yoda’s and Obi Wan’s views on guiding Luke are different but complementary? I think it makes sense, they disagree a lot in the movies. First about Luke being trained in the first place, then about him being their only hope. “No, there is another.”

Luke proved to Yoda that he was worthy of training and his view of sending him to fight Vader is more in line with it being a fear-facing mission, based on what’s shown in Empire, like you are saying. But I feel Obi Wan really wanted him to be ready to kill Vader because he felt he was beyond redemption. Maybe even Obi Wan realized this and that is why he was so ready to die in ANH, he knew Luke was better off with Yoda training him. I wish the show had explored this more in depth.

I think that’s possible but generally when Yoda and Ben disagree they do it vocally onscreen. Maybe they didn’t because Yoda was in the middle of dying lol

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

Well, if you are going to ignore the PT, not much I can say. I feel the PT is crucial to understanding the motives of a Jedi.

But here is the key.

YODA
Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

BEN
Patience.

LUKE
And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA
If you honor what they fight for…yes!

BEN
If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

LUKE
I understand.
Artoo, fire up the converters.

Artoo whistles a happy reply.

BEN
Luke, don’t give in to hate - that leads to the dark side.

YODA
Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

LUKE
I will. And I’ll return. I promise.

Note it is about conquering Vader and the Emperor, not killing them. Don’t give into hate, that leads to the Dark Side.

And then in ROTJ

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

and

YODA
Remember, a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

So, did they expect Luke to Kill Vader? If he had to yes. But showing compassion is part of being a Jedi. Compassion is why neither Obi-wan nor Luke killed Vader. If killing him comes from fear, anger, or aggression, they it would be wrong to give into that.

But the PT makes it even more clear that a Jedi should not just indiscriminately kill. Anakin knew this when he had Count Dooku at his mercy. But Palpatine egged him on to do it.

So we come back to Obi-wan saying he would do what he must and the wording of what Obi-wan and Yoda said to Luke. They did not say to go and kill Vader. They said he must face him. That Vader and the Emperor needed to be conquered. They expected him to go, act like a Jedi, and do what he must to achieve that goal. If that included killing them, he had to be willing to do so. If that meant showing compassion, then that would be what they expected. Obi-wan was ready to kill Vader if he had to, but he never had to. He defeated Vader without having to kill him. Leaving his redemption for his son to achieve.

I agree with this except insofar as it applies to the new show. When he says “I will so what I must” it’s a direct reference to when he says that in ROTS, which is itself related to when Yoda says “destroy the Sith, we must.” It makes sense for them to do that at that stage of things in both cases.

Just don’t engage with him. I don’t think you should increase or decrease anything out of spite for him either.

NFBisms said:

If you have any more general ideas for an edit, there is a more general redux thread for the show. I’m still just trying to break the first act of my personal edit here lol. Not that I don’t appreciate anyone trying to help, but I do have more specific goals than being everyone’s else’s wishlist. I do read that thread and if any of those ideas appeal to me, I’ll reference it here as I fold them in

Otherwise, I might be bowing out until I have a bit more to show. thanks for understanding

DominicCobb said:

Miche said:

NFBisms said:

I like Reva though! I’m actually trying to find a way to include her a bit more as this goes on without it feeling out of left field for who’s mostly been a background player

Why do you like the character? Also, out of curiosity why shift the focus onto a secondary role. I personally found her as stuck up, ill headed, guetto stereotypical want to be baddy. Not sure why anyone would want to include even more screen time.

Assuming “guetto” is a typo for what I think it is, kindly fuck off from this site. We don’t need your kind here.

^^^^^

Definitely true. Personally I think this is because your edit seems like the most promising right now so people are latching onto it.

Sirius said:

I don’t know if someone already brought this up in the edits of this site, but I have an idea about making the imperial cruiser chasing the rebels ship less silly, right before the second Vader vs Kenobi fight.

You can just cut the supposed hyperdrive problem entirely, and make Obi-Wan wanting to confront Vader just because he wants to resolve this personal conflict with Anakin (this is somewhat confirmed by his conversation with Roken). To accomplish that, I think that would be necessary just to cut most of the chase sequence, and insert a shot of the rebels ship entering the light speed right after Obi-Wan’s ship has launched. You could even relocate part of the drama with Obi-Wan and Leia about he being left behind for when they are leaving the planet, i.e. right after Reva being stabbed by Vader but before the beginning of the chase sequence in space.

This way, you make the Empire less incompetent for not sending tie fighters after the rebels ship, since they would have escaped too fast after they leave the orbit of the planet.

This would be good.

Kaweebo said:

I don’t think the Nari scene is necessary, since it’s main point is to show that Kenobi himself has fallen into depression and has become jaded about everything, willing to abandon his moral conscience out of cowardice borne of his PTSD, which doesn’t seem to be as much at the forefront of this edit. This Obi-Wan is more practical, I feel, but driven by his sense of duty more than anything. There’s hints of his having become unbalanced (his inability to communicate with Qui-Gon, for example), but that’s more of a side thing than the main point.

The only other useful thing about that scene is setting the idea up about Obi-Wan burying his sabers in the sand, but I don’t think it’s that big of a stretch to just cut to him retrieving them once he’s resolved to leave like in the edit.

Really, Nari as a character was so mishandled because they decided to show us him through the Inquisitors’ POV rather than his own. If there was a scene of him heading to Tatooine or giving any explanation of the journey he’d been on since Order 66, I’d probably feel better about leaving it in since it’d be set up better. As is, I think his appearance only really works in this context via the Inquisitor scene in the cantina.

I didn’t interpret it that way at all. He’s depressed and jaded but he’s absolutely right to keep his head down and recommend other Jedi do the same. By not going around calling himself Obi Wan and making a big show out of things he’s protecting Luke, which is the most important thing he can do. And his advice was right, Nari just got himself killed anyway. Everything he said was true. And again when he tells Bail Organa that his primary responsibility is Luke, that’s also true.

The show later undercuts this by trying to make it seem like Obi Wan is supposed to abandon Luke so he can have more off world adventures (maybe in season 2) and his “flaw” was not being adventurous enough (?). I hate that but it doesn’t have to be that way. The opening is pretty good and doesn’t have to set up that non-arc.

It’s important to remember that this is not The Last Jedi Luke. With TLJ Luke there is no purpose to it, he hates the Jedi and wants nothing to do with the story. Obi Wan, inside this show or not, depressed or not, is being an isolated hermit for a very good reason. He has a purpose and he’s still a Jedi. There’s a plan in place.

henzINNIT said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

They’re not sending Luke to simply face his fear. Confronting Vader is obviously incredibly dangerous, and something with very limited potential results. Obi-Wan believes Vader is beyond redemption, so what do you propose he’s hoping will happen when Luke confronts him, if not to stop him? Obi-Wan doesn’t say Luke has to be willing to kill Vader, Luke says he can’t kill Vader and Obi-Wan says that means they’ve already lost.

Yoda is pretty tactical tbh. He kept Luke in the dark about his father just as Obi-Wan did. He even deflects when Luke asks him in ROTJ, only answering when Luke insists. They both choose to hold on to that secret and let Luke fly to Cloud City unaware. They were both far more concerned with Luke being fully trained than him knowing the truth. When questioned why he thought it was ‘unfortunate’, Yoda says it was because Luke had rushed to face Vader, and wasn’t trained. He never really speaks about it on an emotional level.

They never explicitly say ‘kill Vader’, but it seems the most logical conclusion to draw from what they do say. There is a lot of stretching required to conclude they didn’t want this outcome, and they could have been much, much clearer about their intentions if that was the case.

They are. It’s a continuation of the trials in Empire Strikes Back. Luke goes into the cave and he fails because he brought his weapons with him and gave into fear. Not coincidentally he’s facing a vision of Vader. Then he faces Vader for real in Cloud City (against their warnings) and fails again. He didn’t have enough training, not just combat training, but Jedi training in controlling one’s emotions generally. So he has to face the circumstances again, this time with training and preparation. The vision in the cave was definitely not about Yoda training Luke for battle, and in case there was any doubt, he tells him not to bring his weapons.

When Luke says that he is a Jedi, Yoda says that he has to confront Vader first. Why would that be? If he has all the training to the point where he’s capable of training others, why does he have to confront Vader? Is he just like a final boss in a video game? I don’t think so. It’s a barrier that Luke personally and spiritually has to get past. I think it’s facing the temptation of the dark side while also facing his personal “demons.” Obi Wan wants him to be ready to kill Vader if it comes down to it because he will need to be able to defend himself during the confrontation and Palpatine’s attempts to control him.

If it were a question of just taking out Vader (or Palpatine) to take out the enemy leader then that wouldn’t make sense either. The Death Star 2 is going to be destroyed with or without Luke. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” This isn’t a special forces wetwork mission, or else they would have instructed Luke to bring a bunch of commandos with him, or given him an idea on how to lure Vader for an ambush, etc. It’s not like they don’t know the rebellion exists. It’s obviously a personal test for Luke and they’re trusting the Force to let it all play out the way it’s supposed to.

Kaweebo said:

Editing is much tighter on the Inquisitor scene, though I do think there should be an establishing shot of them exiting the ship before we just cut to them in the bar. Especially when Reva comes into play a bit more later in the show. I get why you edited them walking out because it just highlights how ridiculous they look, but it did feel a bit rushed, almost like they teleported to the cantina.

The editing on Nari and him getting strung up is good, as is the last time Kenobi goes to the Lars homestead. Very impactful. I’m enjoying this so far very much.

I agree with this. I also think it might be good to include the scene of Nari visiting Obi Wan before he gets killed, just to introduce who he is, let Obi Wan express “we lost,” and let the inquisitor scene play out to show why Obi Wan’s caution was justified while also making him feel it harder when Nari does get killed. I know that all we really need to know is that he’s a Jedi but as it is it feels a little abrupt. I also thought that this little sequence of events was something the original show did well.

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

I get what George is trying to say about attachment, but it bugs me that he considers emotional connection to your own mother, or simply the act of falling in love with someone, as something problematic. Anakin falling for Padme is portrayed as a dangerous thing, like it’s a “sin,” but Anakin’s behavior towards Padme doesn’t become overtly possessive until RotS. It’s hard to gauge what Lucas considers to be crossing the line from “good” love to “bad/possessive” love.

act on instinct said:

I understand the resistance to the ideas about attachments but that’s really something to take up with Buddhism/Hinduism more than Lucas who is being a pretty loyal messenger to the eastern view on such things, rather than misinterpreting or inventing.

The idea behind attachments, I think, is a good idea poorly executed. The Force gives mere humans immense power, and humans are fallible and make rash decisions based on emotion, greed, and self-interest. Trying to eliminate any potential motivation to slip away from righteousness is probably a good idea. The distinction between “good” love and “possessive” love needed to be way more clear, but if the PT leaned further into this idea, the distinction becomes more clear. Anakin’s love for Padmé isn’t healthy because of what it motivates him to do. Simply, it clouds his judgment. He isn’t making rational decisions because he’s afraid to lose her.

The problem with this, though, is that no human is capable of living a life without sin. George Lucas is a Buddhist Christian, and if heaven is where the righteous come to live with God in the afterlife, and sin is antithetical to God’s very being, heaven should be entirely unpopulated. An infinite being has infinite moral standards, and no human is perfect. Drinking soda is a sin. Driving a car is a sin. And those are just baby examples, there’s so much worse stuff that everybody contributes to simply for existing, it’s just that maybe it isn’t tone appropriate to bring that up on a Star Wars forum. Even being associated with anything like this, though, makes you partially morally responsible for great harm.

I thought that first part was already pretty explicit.

You’re describing Christianity without Christ. The whole point is that Christ redeemed humanity’s imperfections and allows people to become more perfect than they were and reach heaven with his help. I don’t know what you’re trying to achieve here by trying to point out problems with Christianity.

I think you’re also stretching the definition of sin. Why is drinking soda or driving a car sinful? Contributing to something just by existing isn’t a sin either because sin requires an actual choice being made.

Superweapon VII said:

Vladius said:

act on instinct said:

Servii said:

I agree with what SparkySywer said above.

I get what George is trying to say about attachment, but it bugs me that he considers emotional connection to your own mother, or simply the act of falling in love with someone, as something problematic. Anakin falling for Padme is portrayed as a dangerous thing, like it’s a “sin,” but Anakin’s behavior towards Padme doesn’t become overtly possessive until RotS. It’s hard to gauge what Lucas considers to be crossing the line from “good” love to “bad/possessive” love. And we don’t really see much of the Jedi showing that compassionate love to people. And maybe that was intentional, but I don’t think it was.

I understand the resistance to the ideas about attachments but that’s really something to take up with Buddhism/Hinduism more than Lucas who is being a pretty loyal messenger to the eastern view on such things, rather than misinterpreting or inventing.

From the Bhagavad Gita, I’m sure it will sound familiar:
https://panindiahindu.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/love-vs-attachment-in-the-context-of-gita/

Exactly. It’s very difficult for a secular, materialist, western audience to accept the idea of not leading yourself by your emotions or what gives you “fulfillment” or sexual desire.

Something which shouldn’t be ignored is that unlike the Jedi, the average Hindu/Buddhist can still practice their faith without having to become an ascetic. It’s not the doctrine that’s the problem; it’s the Jedi’s dogmatic adherance to it. Them taking children too young to give informed consent only compounds the problem.

The Jedi aren’t completely ascetic either and there are clearly people that believe in the Force without becoming Jedi. But anyway, their dogmatic adherence isn’t a problem at all. The problem is Anakin’s refusal to follow the dogma. Like I said that’s really uncomfortable for westerners (especially Americans) who love individuality and rebellion above all else, which is ironic given how Star Wars started with being about rebellion.

The thing is that Anakin (or any of the younglings) could have chosen to leave the Jedi at any time. There’s nothing forcing them to stay. Anakin’s problem is that he can’t leave just to be with Padme, he wants to have it all. He’s ambitious. “I want more, and I know I shouldn’t.” He wants to be the big hero, to be on the Jedi Council, to be a master, to make people do what he wants. So Palpatine offers him the chance to save Padme by being more powerful, not less.

yotsuya said:

Vladius said:

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

Just look at what Obi-wan says in 2 duels with Anakin/Vader. “I will do what I must.” That is what Obi-wan expects of Luke in confronting Vader and Palpatine.

1. That was made after Return of the Jedi.
2. Return of the Jedi is long after that part in the story, after they’ve already tried to kill them and failed. In fact it makes even less sense for them to tell Luke to go kill both Vader and Palpatine when they couldn’t, and Luke is barely trained.
3. Killing Vader and Palpatine has no effect on the Battle of Endor, so it’s not about restoring the Republic or anything.
4. Obi Wan doesn’t even “do what [he] must” in the Obi Wan show!

henzINNIT said:

Regarding the jedi masters’ intentions in ROTJ, I had never given it much thought to be honest. I don’t think I even realised there was a debate until recently. To me it was clear that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to kill Vader, for several reasons:

Obi-Wan says that they have already lost when Luke says he can’t kill his own father. He then shuts down the idea of redemption when Luke suggests there is still good in Vader. This would be some really bizarre reverse psychology if Obi-Wan actually intended for Luke to somehow stop Vader peacefully. Also, this is not totally solid as it was cut, but in the ROTJ script there is more dialogue in this scene and Obi-Wan says quite explicitly that Luke is to ‘destroy’ Vader.

Yoda’s intentions are less clear in dialogue but I still get the impression that he wanted Vader to be killed. He says it was ‘unfortunate’ for Luke to find out Vader was his father, and considers the knowledge a burden. This could really only be the case if the intention was for Luke to kill Vader. If the plan was for Luke to somehow turn his father instead, knowing about him in advance would have been more of an asset than a hindrance.

Lastly, the dramatic tension of the film hinges on Luke believing in Vader’s redemption when literally no-one else would. He manages to force a resolution without resorting to killing, defying all expectations in the process. It’s bizarre to me to think his mentors secretly wanted the same thing, and they just refused to say that or worse heavily imply the opposite.

I addressed that already. He’s saying that Luke has to be willing to kill him if it comes down to it. He doesn’t intend him to stop him peacefully but we don’t know that he intends him to stop him at all. They’re sending Luke to Vader to face his fear and become a Jedi, not to kill the enemy faction’s leader and win the war.

I don’t see how that follows with the burden. It’s unfortunate and it’s a burden because it’s really harsh to find out that your father is Darth Vader regardless of what you do. It’s painful. It never even occurred to me that he would be saying that strictly in a tactical sense of how Luke is going to fight or neutralize Vader. That’s not how he delivers it.

The dramatic tension comes from a lot of things. There’s the Battle of Endor, of course. On the other side it’s mainly about Luke believing in Vader’s redemption while Vader himself doesn’t. Obi Wan and Yoda might have a pessimistic outlook on that but they’re not telling Luke not to try. They never explicitly say that Luke needs to kill Vader and not to try anything. The important part is that Luke goes to face Vader again regardless of the outcome. That’s what is holding him back from being a Jedi, which is what Yoda says.

yotsuya said:

cap said:

BedeHistory731 said:

cap said:

RogueLeader said:

The Chosen One thing is something is wish George never explicitly answered.

He said Anakin was the Chosen One, and if you only look at Lucas’s films that makes sense.

It’s more just a PT thing, I find. I guess it does work in all movies if killing the Emperor was all he needed to do, it could work. However, the OT never really says much about old Anakin beyond “good pilot,” “good friend,” and “good at being a warrior.” He’s decidedly not a chosen one there.

The concept may not appear in the OT, but it’s not a contradiction either. Obi-Wan once believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. By the time of the OT, he no longer believes that. Why would he mention that he once did?

If one views Luke or Rey as the extension of Anakin’s deeds, then he could still be a proper chosen one.

In what way is Rey an extension of Anakin’s deeds? For that matter how is Luke an extension of Anakin’s deeds, unless you mean the deed of f*cking Padme?

Also, nothing about the prophecy says that balance had to be permanent.

Is it even temporary? Anakin’s act of personal redemption changes very little as far as anyone else is concerned. Sidious is still alive. The Sith plan is still in motion. The de-Sidioused Empire is on its way out, but the First Order will take its place, and the Exegol fleet will be ready by the time the First Order falls. In the big picture, what has Anakin actually accomplished?

What did we accomplish in WWI and the Treaty of Versailles when 20 years later we had WWII? Art imitating life.

And it is quite clear that Palpatine wasn’t really back. He was knocked out of power and for an unknow period of time, was had no influence on the Galaxy. Even if the transfer was immediate (I do not think so myself), his political power was lost and his hold on the Dark Side of the Force was broken. Anakin restored the balance of the force, regardless of what Palpatine and his Sith disciples were up to. It took 30 years for him to claw his way back and even then he did not have the power he once did. Some readings of the ST make it sound like nothing had changed when it is quite clear that everything had changed and they were fighting to prevent Palpatine from gaining power again. It took Palpatine more than 13 years of manipulation and trickery to become Emperor the first time and the events of the PT take place over just a year and there is no way he could undo the past 30 years of freedom in that short of time. Nor could the First Order.

In the ST, the First Order, Kylo Ren, and Palpatine are a scary monster trying to topple a 30 year old Republic from the outside. In the PT, you have a skilled political manipulator working from within an 1000 year old corrupted republic and he is able to use the system to gain and keep the power he craved. He cannot get that back in any easy way in the PT. Not possible. His plan is victory by intimidation (put me back in power or I will destroy your worlds) and Rey stops him before that plan can even start. So the ST is not a rehash of the OT. The situation is totally different and the stakes are different.

Palpatine died and Anakin balanced the Force. That was true in ROTJ and it remains true in TROS. Palpatine came back and Rey destroys Palpatine utterly and balances the Force again. I found this to be a very fitting thing to happen since Lucas’s inspiration for Star Wars was Flash Gordon and Ming kept coming back when you thought he was dead. Palpatine coming back once is a nice tribute to that origin and made a great story.

The Treaty of Versailles wasn’t part of an (objectively real) prophecy in a fictional world and didn’t have to be written to satisfy an audience.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Goodness gracious that’s so much better, holy crap

NFBisms said:

Here’s how I was roughly planning on streamlining the kidnapping plot’s introduction in my edit.

The idea is that Obi-Wan feels a disturbance in the Force related to Leia while trying (and failing) to contact Qui-Gon.

It’s very very specific to how I’m approaching the Tatooine portion, I’ll get into it in my thread, but for the most part I don’t think we need any of the Alderaan stuff in full if we can help it.

Some of it is nice, but I don’t think a lot of it is necessary from a character perspective. (which is my focus) We can learn a lot about Leia more organically through her interactions with Ben later in the series.

I don’t think this approach is polished/perfect yet or if I’ll even follow through on it, but I like this for how it mitigates a good bit of the POV jumping, keeping us centered on the titular character for most of the [series-turned-] movie. We lose a neat moment with the intercutting Vader suit-up, but it was entirely redundant anyway.

The biggest loss I think is having Obi-Wan not completely cut off from the Force. Him saving Leia on Daiyu later in this context would just be him as rusty and weak. Which is fine I guess, it’s not like that’s not along the lines of how we understood Obi-Wan before, but I liked that moment in the show as it was.

anyway, I want to try to lean less on this device going forward

I have more to explain about it but I’ll save it for my thread

That sounds great but I never got the impression that Obi Wan was cut off from the Force.

RogueLeader said:

I was curious about Vlad’s interpretation of if Obi-Wan (and by extension Yoda) were wanting or expecting Luke to kill Vader, so I tried to see if I could find Lucas saying anything about it. I did manage to find this quote from Lucas in the Making of Return of the Jedi book.

“The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to.”

I think that lines up with what Vladius is saying.

Wow, I had no idea that quote even existed. That’s great, thank you.

Fan_edit_fan said:

If this is all to make excuses for Ben not killing Vader in the Kenobi show…well it just seems like it’s getting ridiculous and over thinking what those writers couldn’t be bothered with…plus Obi-Wan has executed “lesser” villains and dark siders. It was Luke’s idea to try and be passive with his confrontation…that’s what makes Luke interesting, he knew a better path than Ben or Yoda would gamble with.

Why is this all being convoluted to make sense of a terribley written/cash grab tv show?

I think you missed the last sentence in my post.

Ice said:

How’s this idea?

In the beginning of the film when Obi-Wan decides to give Luke the toy, we cut in the last part of the series where Obi-Wan approaches Luke and says “Hello there!”. We then hear Owen’s voice “I thought I told you to leave us” etc and cut to a suitable shot of Owen at the homestead. “Walk with me”, then wipe to the “He must be trained/Like you trained his father” scene (perhaps change background to suggest they are still somewhere else on the farm). We don’t see the toy being returned, so it’s implied Luke still has it. Then obi-Wan continues his adventure, and we don’t see the Lars family again…

Until, at the very end after saying bye to the Organas at Alderaan, we cut back to Obi-Wan packing up his cave. He rides his animal… and we then see him check on the farm with binoculars (scene taken from first episode). He sees Luke playing pilot, implied to be because of the toy he got at the beginning. Obi-Wan then rides away and meets QGJ.

Thoughts?

This would of course means losing the “battle” of the Lars homestead entirely, but if Reva dies by Vader’s hand (as some suggest doing) it’s ok anyway

That would be cool.

RogueLeader said:

I think you could keep the convo with Obi-Wan and Owen without having to keep his interaction with Reva. Did you like that as well? I just felt like it was a little convenient, and they were trying hard to make Reva look bad by cutting the woman’s hand off, but I could see why someone would want to keep all of that stuff as well.

I thought it was a nice little character moment for Owen, having to be brave in the face of being threatened. It also shows that the common people are supposed to hate Jedi and buy into the whole ideology to get by, which makes sense and drives home Palpatine’s rhetoric in ROTS. And I really like Obi Wan saying thank you and Owen saying “I didn’t do it for you.”

The specifics of Reva drawing her lightsaber on people and the inquisitors arguing with her about it, I could take or leave that stuff, but it’s a nice setup for the character interactions afterward.

The inquisitor’s speech about compassion being the Jedi’s weakness is great but it’s really insane that he’s telling the common people that, lol
“Our mutual sworn enemy is simply too good and we have to violently prey upon his kindness to you” is a very weird way to do your propaganda. But if it were just a voiceover on a scene showing the inquisitors on the move it could be neat.