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Star Wars : Evolution of the Lightsaber Duel
Not a bad little feature hosted by Mark Hamill. It’s obviously a bit of a marketing ploy for TFA which was due to open at theatres a few days after this feature was aired but it’s interesting nonetheless.
.Val
As I understand it, hardly anything is changing from the initial release. He’s just remaking it in HD to match the quality of TESB:R with a few minor revisions such as removing the PT music from the Obiwan vs Vader fight scene that he originally added in his first release.
That aside, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the opening sequence as it is 😉
.Val
We have a local movie theatre that’s essentially an old town hall with random old couches and lounge chairs spaced out pretty genorously in lines that you just grab a blanket and lounge in with a few beers and ice creams while getting a pretty decent movie experience via a theatre size screen and a large professional hi-fi audio system.
We’ve got a proper cinema as well but the other one is a nice change from the usual popcorn and soft drink in your stiff single fold down seat wherever you can find one if you’re not early enough.
.Val
Edit: Oh yeah, I saw TFA once in the cinema and once at home on Bluray. Only seen RO once in the cinema so far. I generally liked both movies though 😛
it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker
I don’t see how it makes more sense for him to appear in a form he never had than one he did.
The way I believe force ghosts are supposed to work is they are either a representation of your soul (which remains whole regardless of missing body parts) or it appears as you see yourself.
Real life amputees often still feel as if their missing limb is there and if you’re like Vader where any limb lost is replaced with a mechanical one that operates just as good as your real one then he would have still seen himself as a whole person and therefore returns as his whole self. If he instead lived half his life without one of his arms then he may well have returned as a one armed force ghost as it’s a projection of his self image.
That’s what I figure anyway.
.Val
No comments on the 13 SW movies? Does anyone think there was something there or is it just a “George strikes again” or a simple marketing mistake?
.Val
I’ve found evidence of the 12 movies bit.
https://youtu.be/AwWrMMBytZ4
Interesting video, though doesn’t it in fact confirm 13 movies, not 12? This advert from 1979 is speaking in the knowledge that Star Wars is already out two years beforehand and says “GL and 20TH CF have plans for twelve more block-busting chapters to the Star Wars story”.
It’s weird because I remember hearing over the years once the PT started that there were plans for 9 movies all up, then it was 12 and of course a couple of years before TFA, it was only ever meant to be 6 movies…yeah, sure George, whatever you say George…dickhead.
.Val
If Shaw is used, this is the only version Luke would recognize:
He would recognise him more than some mop haired kid that just appears. Just a couple of scars and no hair doesn’t make him unrecognisable at all. Information is not easily available under the oppression of a regime like the Empire. He couldn’t just look up information about his father. The Emperor would have suppressed all of that. If it was so easy for Luke to look up info on his father, then it wouldn’t have been too hard for him to discover that he became Vader.
Anakin appearing as his younger self is ridiculous. So, one of the most evil men in the galaxy can suddenly return to his youth, while the other two jedi have to remain their older selves? And the fan theories about how he returns to his form when he was last a good man is also ridiculous. Not only is he NOT a good man on the light side of the force when he looked like that, ( He had already begun on the path to the dark side, He had, after all, slaughtered a whole village of Tuskens, including the women and children, out of anger long before he looked like that), but that also completely destroys the whole redemption arc of ROTJ. Anakin turns back to the light side prior to his death. Him becoming a force ghost originally symbolised that. Before the rubbish that they had to learn it, which Anakin had no knowledge of, so couldn’t have become a force ghost. God, the prequels screwed so much up in the OT
Spot on Ady.
The prevailing argument in this thread for having a Hayden ghost (or more accurately, a Hayden head 😉 ) seems to just be so that he is instantly recognisable from the PT for the sake of the audience and f**k any considerations of logic and consistency for the sake of the story and character in the actual movie being viewed at the time.
Yet it’s a significantly smaller leap of logic to accept the Shaw ghost as Anakin Skywalker and understand that Luke recognises him as Anakin since we both only just saw the very same actor / character not a few minutes earlier and seeing a new force ghost appear (Shaw’s) that we’ve never seen before, right after we know a master of the force just recently returned to the light side (we never see any dark side force ghosts) and died who is now standing beside Ben and Yoda, pretty much screams that it’s obviously Anakin and the fact he doesn’t look that close to Hayden is just something the audience has to swallow in the knowledge that these movies were made 28 YEARS apart.
The leap in logic to accept young Hayden as old Anakin in contrast to what is already established at this point as to how Jedi masters appear as force ghosts is just to big in comparison and no explanation is given to help bridge it, so it’s left to the audience to come up with their own explanations of which there are numerous that often clash with each other instead of everyone having the same common understanding from having previously already witnessed the lore that is actually established throughout the 3 movies.
It’s basically just a massive retcon that George throws in there to try and tie in the PT more with the OT but which fails from the outset, serving only instead to spit on the original movie, the original actor and the fans that already loved the movie and didn’t want to see such an intrusive and illogical change on their memories of it.
.Val
HerekittykittyX said:
People never point this out during the fight Luke hits Vader’s lightsaber not the blade the hilt so Vader lightsaber should be cut in half so when Luke hits vaders light saber cut off half of it using photo shop and shift Vader hand up that would be a cool effect
I think I did see that mentioned somewhere in here much earlier in the thread. It just needs to be fixed though so he hits the blade instead or it’s not noticeable that he accidentally hits the hilt, not change the story itself 😉
.Val
Sounds very exciting, will be interesting to see where it leads.
For a second I though I was reading about a future PT reboot which is all we need now to finish washing away their bad taste…
.Val
You know a much better title for this movie would be The Corellian Smuggler: A Star Wars Story.
Definitely much better on many levels. “Solo” is so easy and predictable, yet I bet hundreds of thousands of dollars was spent on deciding it was the right name to go with, LOL…
.Val
They’re just teasing us, the sadistic bastards…
Edit: Redundant post as Frank edited theirs to include an example 😉
Team account confirmed?
Team account?
My post just explained in laymen terms what a URL and parentheses were with an example but then Frank added an example to their post, making mine redundant 😉
.Val
This isn’t Frink’s handiwork is it? 😛
.Val
Edit: Redundant post as Frank edited theirs to include an example 😉
Nice collection by the way OP. All I’ve got to show is a lousey set of Blurays, DVDs and a VHS set (I suppose that’s alright 😃 ). I’ll see if I can find a photo of it.
.Val
In other words, there are files inside of the .iso. It’s sort of similar to a .zip file. And when you burn the .iso to the disc, you don’t want to actually burn the .iso file itself so that there is a single .iso file on the disc; but you instead want the burning software to extract the .iso while burning it. You want the burned disc, were you to insert it into your disc drive, to have files on it the same as if you were to, say, browse inside the .iso with WinZip.
And in different terms again 😛 , you simply want to burn an “image” disc, not a “data storage” disc. If you open My Computer, right click the bluray drive and select open / explore and find a single file inside ending in .iso then you’ve burnt a data storage disc 😉 (as it’s only written the file instead of the disc image within the file)
.Val
DominicCobb said:
Regardless, saying you have no interest in the official digital release because its digital is silly if you’re asking someone to give you digital files anyway.
No, I’m not interested in acquiring them via iTunes or paying for their digital versions. You should know that all my music I have is owned on CD but I listen to them digitally, having ripped copies to put on my PC and iPhone. They’re more for collection that repeat playing themselves as I’ve got no qualms with digital copies for all my favourite bands and music but I want to own them on a physical medium of which my favourite is the CD album since I grew up with it and enjoy the artwork and booklets that come with them. I don’t like the thought at all of only owning some megabytes of data when it comes to the music I am most passionate about, I want something I can actually hold and look at physically.
I already own physical copies of the work, some of which is arranged / edited differently but still essentially the same source material but is also missing a couple of tracks that should be there in the first place.
Ultimately, like I said, it’s up to you, but it is piracy. If they release the OOT officially are you going to download that illegally too? Same logic.
As said, I haven’t ever seen the original soundtracks for sale anywhere. I’ll look into it but I don’t think they’re actually available outside non official retailers, meaning they fall into the same category for sharing copies as the DSEs do. This site well knows the grey area it falls into and I think this is where the OOT soundtracks now fall into as well. I will see if I can confirm that though before proceeding further in obtaining them via other means.
As for the missing cues, there’s only two - Lapti Nek and the Ewok Celebration - but as far as I know neither are the film versions. If you’re interested in the film versions, there are score fan edits out there that try to preserve that.
Would you mind pointing me to any such fan edit scores (can’t say I’ve seen any around yet in my OT.com travels)? As it’s something else I initially thought about asking above but was waiting to see what came about with my first question.
.Val
Not to backseat mod or anything but that’s technically piracy which isn’t looked kindly upon on this site. Like the films, the special edition albums are quite different, though unlike the films (and the main reason why Despecialized is allowed), both versions of the album are readily available for purchase.
The choices you make are up to you, I’m honestly not judging, I just don’t think you should talk about that here.
I honestly can’t see how it’s different than the DSE situation (and fan edits in general) which is another reason I referenced it. Also I’m not sure if you would say the original soundtracks are technically still available (in CD medium) if you have to get them via eBay and the like instead of actual retailers. There definitely weren’t any copies available in any of my local stores, only the latest versions I already have a copy of.
I get what you say about it possibly being against forum rules, I’ll wait for an actual mod to weigh in on this one though before making any retractions on my posts. Thanks for the heads up nonetheless and yes it could probably go to another thread now if discussed further. It was only meant to be a simple question for anyone that knew the answer and then I would have just PM’d them anyway 😉
Basically my reasons for asking in summary are:
.Val
You can get the 1993 album box pretty cheap used.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002VI7/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks but I already own one set of all 6 movies that I would have spent close to that already (not including the additional freight needed for the set above) in obtaining, not realising at the time that certain OT tracks had been omitted / replaced. I’m not keen to spend that again plus more with the chance of receiving a scratched second hand set.
You can find the original albums on iTunes, etc.
Yeah I don’t like iTunes, I use it simply because I use and iPhone but all the music I actually own I specifically buy on CD. Plus already owning copies of the current albums, I don’t want double ups (to an extent) and look at it as with the fan edits - I have purchased the official copies so I’m happy to just download copies of the actual originals.
.Val
It’s not the same as with the films, the “official copies” right now are the original albums. If you don’t want to double up you can just buy the individual songs you don’t already own (though many other tracks are edited differently).
If you want CD, the collection they released a couple years back is the original albums I believe (though it’s all six films and quite expensive). It seems they might be doing individual CD releases at some point in the future, but who knows. You can probably get them on ebay.
Ok, so to be specific I have the “latter” official albums. I simply thought since I’ve already got “one” copy that I’d just download the actual originals if someone has them rather than try to buy them since I’ve already essentially outlaid good money for one set. I just used the DSE example to try and somewhat explain where my thought process on the matter started.
Anyway regardless of other options available, my question remains and that is - does anyone have such copies readily available that they would be willing to share? Feel free to PM me if so, it would be very much appreciated.
.Val
You can find the original albums on iTunes, etc.
Yeah I don’t like iTunes, I use it simply because I use and iPhone but all the music I actually own I specifically buy on CD. Plus already owning copies of the current albums, I don’t want double ups (to an extent) and look at it as with the fan edits - I have purchased the official copies so I’m happy to just download copies of the actual originals.
.Val
The thought did surface for myself when writing my earlier post, that having defeated Vader Luke is now free to challenge the Emperor so you wouldn’t have thought it a logical choice to instead through away his lightsaber in defiance. The fact he does do this though speaks subliminally that he knows he is no match for the Emperor and simply accepts his fate. It could be he had already felt how strong the Emperor was, as it’s already well established by then that force users can detect how strong another person is in the force.
Overall I think the main intention was simply for Luke to find himself again after defeating Vader when he realises their main goal is to turn him. He then decides he’s not going to kill or continue to fight his father and he’s not going to turn to the dark side. So defiantly he basically says the Emp has failed and to either kill him now or let him go as he’s not going to play their game full stop. It’s definitely an interesting scene to debate.
.Val
Really good point about the force sensing, that didn’t occur to me, but it makes sense.
He realizes that fighting isn’t the way. If it costs him his life, so be it, but he’s trusting the Force now and not himself. That’s the “leveling up”.
Like many elements of ROTJ, it’s murky and not perfect and not everyone will agree, but that’s my take:
He either tosses it because he’s just ‘moved past it’ so to speak, or he’s just being stupid. 😉I think this is a great addition to the idea of sensing the emperor’s power that val mentioned. I think Luke definitely believes in the “will of the force” like how he jumps in cloud city.
Overall it seems to be the throwing of the saber is purely symbolic, because up until this point, if I recall correctly the only jedi specific tool Luke uses as a weapon is his saber. Its his way and the directors way of showing he will no longer partake in being egged on by the emperor, and refuses to fight, because he knows its the only way the emperor can take control of him.
Honestly though, I can’t imagine why Luke would ever have the mindset to permanently throw away his saber. Its symbolic of his journey in learning the force. Its the only thing that ties him to the jedi teachings outside of his own mind.
He may or may not have his saber in TLJ but as an old master I think light sabers are irrelevant. I wish they wouldn’t have been relied on so much in the PT especially yoda and palps. Really waters down their characters.
(just remembered luke used force choke on the guards at jabba’s, so that might kinda negate my point)
Some good observations there littlev87 and I do agree in a way with ray_afraid’s below comment:
ray_afraid said:
He realizes that fighting isn’t the way.
But like you, in the end I can’t see any reasoning as to why he wouldn’t get his saber back afterwards. It was thrown away as a symbolic gesture specifically tied to the situation he was in. When that situation stopped being relevant, it stopped being relevant for him to symbolically give up his lightsaber. If he had never been put in that situation in the first place then he would never have thrown his saber away.
In regards to Jedi Masters, I don’t thinking becoming one makes lightsabers irrelevant but generally you can find other, wiser means to deal with problems such as force suggestion rather than violence with a saber being your first option every time. Just think of Ben…he may as well be a Jedi Master in ANH, still carries a lightsaber but only uses it in times of extreme danger and need. He uses other aspects of the force in seeking more diplomatic solutions, even just trying to normally talk down the outlaws at the Mos Eisley Cantina before it quickly escalates and he needs to end it immediately.
You’re definitely not wrong in respect to the Yoda and Palp characters in the PT though. Having them leaping about with sabers greatly diminished their awe and presence, which previously never visibly seeing them with a saber (except for Emp commandeering Luke’s in ROTJ) gave them a much more impressive and reverent status while their students openly wielded their sabers without much provocation.
.Val
Don’t think I could actually rank the albums themselves, it would be more down to individual themes for me…which I’ll get back to you on once I listen to all the albums again 😛
By the way, like the DSEs are there any digital copies getting around of the theatrical soundtracks before the SEs and subsequent Georgenstein changes with each media release? I know for instance that my copy of ROTJ is missing Lapti Nek and also the original Ewok city music at the end of the movie, instead it has that horrible celebration song (which isn’t all that bad really but I hate the removal of the original music)? I only bought all the albums something like 4 or 5 years ago.
.Val
no where in there do I see or feel anything about growing past the need for his lightsaber and I can’t make any sense of that in context to the scene. It’s not like he thinks upon defeating Vader that he’s ascended to a higher level and could fight the Emp without his saber
He realizes that fighting isn’t the way. If it costs him his life, so be it, but he’s trusting the Force now and not himself. That’s the “leveling up”.
Like many elements of ROTJ, it’s murky and not perfect and not everyone will agree, but that’s my take:
He either tosses it because he’s just ‘moved past it’ so to speak, or he’s just being stupid. 😉JEDIT- Also, isn’t it maybe more interesting to leave it a bit ambiguous by not seeing the saber on his belt at the end? I dunno.
It’ll be interesting to see if he has it in the ST.
Yeah not convinced sorry, but that’s fine…we all interpret and enjoy the movies in different ways. Seeing that originally the saber is there at the end (whether it’s a missed continuity error or not) it will definitely be interesting to see if it resurfaces in TLJ and I guess that will probably be the decider on canon / fan theories.
.Val
The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃
Come on guys, I bet if it was a Twilight Fan edit I’d already be out 1,000 bucks.
To me, he was saying “I don’t need this anymore.” He’s grown past it.
"You’re weapons, you will not need them."
Otherwise he just threw it to look cool. And that’s silly.It’s not the biggest deal, and certainly a minor thing in the list of fixes Jedi needs.
Also, this is a fairly simple thing to fix, so if I’m alone on this I can do it for myself I suppose.Interesting take on his motives though to me they seem pretty illogical and disconnected from what actually happens on screen. It does kinda make sense now with your view on him collecting his saber before leaving but I still wholey disagree with it.
Here is the scene: https://youtu.be/PqaiKmm8gsY
Emp: walking down the stairs “cackle Goood…cackle. Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfil your destiny and take your father’s place at my side”
Luke: sees the potential truth in the Emp’s words, having used his anger to defeat Vader and now can see a symbolic replacement of Vader already in Vader’s now missing mechanical right hand while Luke clenches his own in realisation he was already starting down that path. He had been warned numerous times about the dark side, never thinking he may actually be susceptible to its sinister lure and this snaps him out of the moment, realising he is being manipulated and forcibly reasserts his inner calm, remembering who he is - a Jedi. He says “Never.” as he turns around, turning his lightsaber off and defiantly throwing it away as he stands tall and walks without fear towards the Emp. “I’ll never turn to the dark side.” he says, preferring to die a Jedi than live on as a Sith pawn as all he holds dear is destroyed. “You failed your highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me”. He waits, to see what fate now holds for him, as a Jedi…
Emp: “So be it…Jedi” SCRRCCHHHH! 😛
Probably didn’t need to play out that entire scene but no where in there do I see or feel anything about growing past the need for his lightsaber and I can’t make any sense of that in context to the scene. It’s not like he thinks upon defeating Vader that he’s ascended to a higher level and could fight the Emp without his saber like Yoda does in the PT. To me, his action is in direct relation to what he says at the time - “Never”
True if he picked it up again while the Emp was still alive then on both accounts it was a worthless guesture, but him retrieving it afterwards does not take away at all from the scene I described above.
.Val
It always seemed to me that it never occurred to Luke that the emperor had the kind of power he has (lightning). That the emperor was a manipulator, and not necessarily a offensive force user. Thus he posed no direct threat to him unless Luke gave into the dark side. That’s what obi wan and yoda always warned him about. You would think they’d tell him, “hey, by the way, the emperor can shoot lightning from his hands and kill you.” I think it was intentional that they never mentioned the emperor’s power to Luke because they didn’t want him to become a tool of the emperor, by going into the confrontation with the mindset of beating the emperor by physical force alone. It seems that the use of aggression is a step toward the dark side. I believe they thought the only chance Luke had to beat the emperor was by will of mind alone. I know that doesn’t really give a good example of how he would then beat the emperor, but it seems that losing Luke to the dark side would be a worse fate than death.
I get what you mean though at the same time, it’s possible neither Ben nor Yoda knew either as to the extent of the Emperor’s force powers. That probably sounds odd until you think in terms of the OT story without the kind of retconned knowledge that the PT now gives you, even subconsciously. Until the PT (and after your first watch through), no one knew about the Emperor’s powers until he uses them at the end of the last movie and this could be the same for the characters, with Vader having done all of his dirty work up until that point. Even if Ben and Yoda don’t know about the Emp’s force lightning though, I’m sure they’re still well aware of generally how powerful he is and this lends itself to some of your good points about Luke needing not just to win in a physical test, but a mental and strength of will test as well.
The thought did surface for myself when writing my earlier post, that having defeated Vader Luke is now free to challenge the Emperor so you wouldn’t have thought it a logical choice to instead through away his lightsaber in defiance. The fact he does do this though speaks subliminally that he knows he is no match for the Emperor and simply accepts his fate. It could be he had already felt how strong the Emperor was, as it’s already well established by then that force users can detect how strong another person is in the force.
Overall I think the main intention was simply for Luke to find himself again after defeating Vader when he realises their main goal is to turn him. He then decides he’s not going to kill or continue to fight his father and he’s not going to turn to the dark side. So defiantly he basically says the Emp has failed and to either kill him now or let him go as he’s not going to play their game full stop. It’s definitely an interesting scene to debate.
.Val
The “$1000 challenge” is going amazingly well. We are now just over £300 until that total is reached. 😃
Great news Ady, I just pushed it a bit closer again with another donation 😄 It’s my 2nd donation for ROTJ:R but my 3rd overall and in my mind, a belated donation for ANH:R at which time I wasn’t around to be able to make it. All the best with reaching your donation goals and completing ROTJ:R along with any future projects.
Also thank you to the member who started the $1000 challenge and your generosity in personally matching whatever target is reached. From the sounds of it, the challenge has made a big difference in Ady reaching where he needs to be in order to feasibly fund and complete ROTJ:R and for that I will be forever grateful.
.Val
