Valheru_84

adywan said:

And to those that say that part of the backlash against TLJ has nothing to do with racist/ misogynistic/hompophobic feelings in the SW community, you only have to see this one post on facebook and read the comments:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1682570385096504&set=gm.531837527203014&type=3&theater&ifg=1

And that is just ONE post. I’m seeing shit like this all the time. It’s starting to flood the net now. My Youtube channel got spammed with this type of crap and its all over facebook. Comments galore about how Kennedy is pushing a female agenda and making all the males into pussys, pushing forced diversity just for the Asian market, that they didn’t need all this shit in the OT and the prequels did a proper job at showing what the races really are like, how Rey should have been a guy and it would have made her being so powerful believable because women are weaker than men, and it goes on, but there is so much that i would never repeat.

Yes, its fine that people don’t like this movie, but you cannot deny that a large section think they are on a crusade against anything that isn’t white powerful and male. It’s gotten a lot worse since a certain person was elected as now they think their beliefs are accepted. It just makes me sick what the fandom has become.

I definitely don’t deny that such a demographic exists and it makes it a mine field to navigate if such issues do actually exist in a movie and you want to try and discuss them without being labelled and lobbed into that group. There is definitely no place for racist, misogynistic or homophobic comments in discussion about TLJ and the idea that Rey should have been male is just ridiculous. As with the selection of any future SW movie directors or actors for a role, gender should not ever come into the equation but simply be the best person for the job regardless of gender unless the character itself calls for a specific gender. In the case of Rey, it could have been written for either gender or easily adjusted as required depending on who won the role.

yhwx said:

At least you have to admit that TLJ was competently done. That’s more than can be said for the prequels, and definitely more than what counts for a 5/100 rating.

Sorry but I disagree, however to go into detail would go against the OP’s rules in this thread. I may have already said to much in response to Frink’s assessment of my “irrationality” and so I will say no more.

.Val

I wanted to give TLJ a 0/100 but thought rationally that it at least deserved something for getting the visuals and sound of SW correct and so raised it up 5. This rating is also only in respect to the other SW movies, not all movies. To give you some further context, here is a quick rating of the other films:

TESB - 98/100
SW/ANH - 95/100
ROTJ - 85/100
R1 - 82/100
TFA - 75/100
ROTS - 40/100
TPM - 38/100
AOTC - 20/100
TLJ - 5/100

I was given a scale to work with that wasn’t related to anything else so I’ve only applied it to SW films and how I compare them against each other. Seeing that TLJ essentially kills SW for me, I think the rating is warranted. In my view, it is a terrible SW film and did far worse damage to the SW universe than the PT ever did.

It might as well be Rian Johnson’s fan film from the way I see it though knowing it is official and Disney signed off on it is why my SW journey ends with this movie.

.Val

Zak fett said:

Valheru_84 said:

SilverWook said:

So, everybody has forgotten or didn’t see the blink and you’ll miss it shot of those ancient Jedi books stashed away on the Falcon? Rey may not have a living trainer, but she’s got the instruction manuals.

I vaguely recall a scene of her closing a drawer I think aboard the Falcon with I think books or paper of some sort inside though I didn’t take particular notice of the drawer contents. I do understand though that this is the shot you speak of and do remember it to an extent.

I’d hardly call them instruction manuals though. As I understood it, they were at most dogmatic preachings, stories and histories of the first Jedis, not a step by step instruction manual on how to master the force.

Plus Yoda says “there’s nothing in the books that the girl rey doesn’t already know”.

Which means she can then learn nothing from the books, yet clearly she is still untrained in the conventional sense and as expected in the SW universe. These new movies simply expect you to take it as they show you and not question anything or relate it to what you already know from the OT. It’s actually one of the messages in TLJ - don’t question what you’re told Poe, just do as you’re instructed and blindly trust the new leader (ie. Disney).

SilverWook said:

So, everybody has forgotten or didn’t see the blink and you’ll miss it shot of those ancient Jedi books stashed away on the Falcon? Rey may not have a living trainer, but she’s got the instruction manuals.

I vaguely recall a scene of her closing a drawer I think aboard the Falcon with I think books or paper of some sort inside though I didn’t take particular notice of the drawer contents. I do understand though that this is the shot you speak of and do remember it to an extent.

I’d hardly call them instruction manuals though. As I understood it, they were at most dogmatic preachings, stories and histories of the first Jedis, not a step by step instruction manual on how to master the force.

SilverWook said:

A lot of FO guys witnessed what Luke did. (More than the troopers who saw Obi Wan vanish, but those guys all got shot.) Gossip spreads pretty fast. The FO will find that a lot harder to spin doctor than rumors of a lone defector.

Will they care though? And even if they did, will that necessarily spread from there throughout the entire galaxy? Even if it does, that seems a pretty weak premise to rely on for the sole reason why the Rebel Alliance proper is able to reform. So the Resistance couldn’t convince other systems and factions to support their cause, especially after the atrocities the FO commits in TFA but somehow word of Jake Skywalker via the mouth of his enemies is supposed to somehow win people to the cause of the Rebellion? And this is the Luke Skywalker that in TFA is relegated to myth and legend like Han and the other characters are?

Sorry but I don’t buy TLJ’s depiction of hope renewed for the galaxy as none of it makes sense or has enough impact to make it believable.

Zak fett said:

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

The thing is, who else was there to witness Jake’s actions? No one except the FO and the remaining 20 or so reliance / rebel fighters left at the end. Who is going to listen to and believe them when no one took heed in TFA when they were thousands strong and trying to warn of an imminent threat to the entire New Republic who were only there in the first place because of the efforts of Leia, Han, Luke and the rebellion? If no one came to their aid then or after the destruction of those 5 planets OR after they broadcast a call for help near the end of TLJ in the aftermath of what the FO clearly represent for the future of the Galaxy, who the hell are going to help them in IX when they are a handful of rugged people on a single small ship?

.Val

The scuttlebutt about what Luke did is going to spread through the ranks of the FO like wildfire.
Jake who? 😉

So from here ren probably knows that luke is dead so that just gives The FO and advantage because Han is dead,Luke is dead and Rey is untrained.Unless the rebellion have a plan of where to go, they don’t appear to have a chance.

I get exactly what you mean except the fact that Rey is untrained bears little logical weight in Disney’s SW as to the chances of the Rebels somehow coming out of top of the FO. If anything, they are entirely leaning and relying on Rey to get them out of this predicament and completely turns things around. In a little under a 2-3 weeks Rey has gone from a scrap collector to the best chance of the newly re-formed gang of 20 rebels and somehow it seems the only possibility the next film has to take the story forward.

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

The thing is, who else was there to witness Jake’s actions? No one except the FO and the remaining 20 or so reliance / rebel fighters left at the end. Who is going to listen to and believe them when no one took heed in TFA when they were thousands strong and trying to warn of an imminent threat to the entire New Republic who were only there in the first place because of the efforts of Leia, Han, Luke and the rebellion? If no one came to their aid then or after the destruction of those 5 planets OR after they broadcast a call for help near the end of TLJ in the aftermath of what the FO clearly represent for the future of the Galaxy, who the hell are going to help them in IX when they are a handful of rugged people on a single small ship?

.Val

The scuttlebutt about what Luke did is going to spread through the ranks of the FO like wildfire.
Jake who? 😉

Like it spread through the ranks of the Empire? With the Resistance becoming the Rebels again (can’t rightly call them the Rebel ‘Alliance’ currently 😉 ) and the FO as good as becoming the Empire again, I don’t see how it is going to be any different. You could point at Finn, but he was one in at least 10s of thousands and with TLJ dropping everything that TFA setup, I wouldn’t count on the possibility of storm troopers having a conscious and able to defect being carried through.

Also the FO being the prime and nearly only method of spreading the news of Jake en masse doesn’t bode well for the Rebels and not something to base a respectable plot on for the next movie.

NFBisms said:
Honestly? I wasn’t even talking really about what you’re ranting about here…

I’m not ranting thank you.

NFBisms said:
…but if you want my thoughts, a lot of what you have to say - the entire premise of it, actually - is too presumptive about what TLJ was doing or trying to say. We don’t have a hard and fast answer about the nature of Rey’s or broom boy’s force sensitivity, so I personally haven’t really been touching that. I have my own ideas, but it’s just speculation and not anything the movies explicitly say at all. I don’t actually think TLJ was saying that the force works the way you described, though.

Too presumptive? Snoke, the most powerful force user we’ve ever seen who’s character hints at having been around for a long, long time, probably influencing events before even the PT (we know at least long enough to see the rise and fall of the Empire) and who seems to have an immense knowledge of the force to the extent he can perform force-skype calls between other force users light years apart without them realising it, proclaims that as Kylo has been increasing in strength, so would his equal opponent in the light side appear. This was a clear explanation to the audience in response to all the flak Rey got in TFA for advancing in her force use too quickly and easily. Jake also only a little earlier in the movie explains the balance in the force which now in retrospect seems like it’s also priming us for the explanation Snoke gives. I’m only going off what TLJ has served up in regards to how the force apparently works now. Other people have also picked up on this, asking why then had Snoke’s opposite equal in the force not shown up from the light side? Maybe that is now Luke, but what about during the events of the OT?

NFBisms said:
But yes, if that (ending the Jedi = good idea) is what is supposedly going through Luke or Jake’s mind, it is at odds with the idea that the force naturally balances itself. The thing is - the movie goes out of it’s way to tell us Luke was wrong to do and think what he did. So. There you go. Again, though. I don’t think the force works the way you think it does.

The movie would also have us think that Jake was that powerful and in touch with the force that he understands at its root level the source and relationship that the force shares with everything in the universe which causes him to reject the dogma of the Jedi teachings and enables him to astro project himself and objects even when he’s not present (the dice) across light years which is not that dissimilar to Snoke’s force-skype calls and speaks to the same level of mastery and knowledge of the force. So why would Luke not also know about this fact of the force self balancing? That his self sacrifice would essentially be for nothing, lending more weight to the fact the reasons for his actions are inherently flawed regardless of conflicts with his OT character and that he should have just gone to confront Kylo in person, if at the very least to still just buy the resistance fighters time to flee and then fade away into the force as Kylo is about to strike, like Obi-wan does as Vader strikes. They actually set this scene up just like that to create this expectation but because the entire movie is built on subverting expectations, at the very last second RJ yanks the rug with Jake instead pulling a matrix move and shortly after is revealed to be an astro projection. Then he fades away into the force anyway as a double subvert.

NFBisms said:
There’s nothing to prove definitively that it’s random magic.

No there’s nothing 100% definitive but there’s not much missing to make it so.

NFBisms said:
FWIW I personally think Lucasfilm not having an overarching plan for the trilogy is fine, because it ensured we got at least one actual movie and not just run-of-mill product flicks. I liked that Johnson was able to imprint more of himself onto TLJ and that it was allowed to be more of a character study than a “can’t you wait for even more SW buy your tickets now1!1!” kind of movie. I know a lot of people wanted something else than what we got, but characters/themes are right up my alley, and I’m ok with it.

In regards to an overarching plan - I’m fine for directors to take trilogy movies in unexpected ways but they still need to maintain some logical connection to the main story arcs it is part of and stay within the rules already established by previous movies or at most, expand upon them. Not fundamentally change them.

Also when I go to see a SW movie, I’d like to see a SW movie - not a RJ imprinted fan film of SW.

.Val

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Literally the whole point of Luke showing up and making a scene is inspiring hope across the galaxy.

“The Rebellion is reborn today.”

The Resistance won’t be able to fit on the Falcon for long. This is made pretty clear in the film.

Yeah, but that all depends how the FO will rule the galaxy. It’s not two major organisations backed by various systems like in the OT. In ANH many systems were rebellung against the Empire, because it was oppressing the galaxy. Now it’s hundreds of thousands of troops versus fifty people. If the FO are smart, there won’t be a Resistance ever.

Luke didn’t just inspire little kids with brooms. He inspired everyone who sympathizes with the Resistance’s plight, including, as is implied, their allies in the Outer Rim.

Sympathy that will only last if the FO are an oppressive force. The Resistance have no allies. Their socalled allies in the outer rim didn’t answer.

If the FO set up a benevolent form of government, the Resistance will never rise again, and quickly fade into obscurity. That is as decisive a victory as victories can be. It’s completely up to the FO to drop the ball.

First of all, the FO does not control the galaxy yet. They are in the process of picking up the pieces during the course of TLJ, that is why the quest for Luke is so dire (Rey states this outright in the film). Their ruling style is irrelevant. They are a fascist regime that favors the wealthy and corrupt. The only way the gain power is by leveling whole communities. The goal is to stop them before they can take full control.

And the allies didn’t answer because “the spark has gone out.” Luke reignited the spark. That’s literally the whole point of the climax.

According to the info from the film, the FO will take full control in weeks. That seems a very short time frame for our miniscule group of rebels.

But don’t you understand that it’s not just the “minuscule” group anymore by the end because of Luke?

The thing is, who else was there to witness Jake’s actions? No one except the FO and the remaining 20 or so reliance / rebel fighters left at the end. Who is going to listen to and believe them when no one took heed in TFA when they were thousands strong and trying to warn of an imminent threat to the entire New Republic who were only there in the first place because of the efforts of Leia, Han, Luke and the rebellion? If no one came to their aid then or after the destruction of those 5 planets OR after they broadcast a call for help near the end of TLJ in the aftermath of what the FO clearly represent for the future of the Galaxy, who the hell are going to help them in IX when they are a handful of rugged people on a single small ship?

.Val

NFBisms said:
In his mind, his presence and the spread of the teachings that turned Vader and Kylo, endangered the galaxy and only doomed it to more of the same darkness. A cycle that would only continue repeating itself.

Maybe that’s what was supposedly in Jake Skywalker’s mind (I’m not going to acknowledge that this is Luke, much like Hamill couldn’t in order to act out this character) but how does this ultimately serve the story in any way if the force just magically grants super powers to random people anyway in order to balance out power in the galaxy? Say that Rey kills Kylo in the next film and goes on to become the new Jedi Master (since Jake proclaims he is now NOT the last Jedi, completely negating his reasons for supposed self exile and what he tried to teach Rey about the folly of the dogmatic religion to the force). According to these new rules, another dark side user will simply rise and be granted these powers without any significant effort required on their part in order to counter the imbalance in only Rey then existing for the light side. And what’s not to say that Rey won’t start her own Jedi school which grows and exists for hundreds of generations, generating it’s own rules and lore revering the force with the Sith / dark side users always lurking in the shadows, waiting to strike or leading their own military faction within the galaxy? We’re right back to the start of the PT.

The mere fact that the force itself will always ensure there is balance by automatically empowering individuals to face of against each other actually means the cycle will never end. The only way it could have ended in the way Jake envisioned it would be for him to actually kill of all the dark side users (Kylo and Snoke) and then kill himself so that there is no immediate imbalance in the force. This is not to say though that another person that is force sensitive couldn’t eventually teach themselves (how else would the Jedi have come into being in the first place?) and thereforce recreate the imbalance, starting the cycle all over again.

No, these new rules create many more problems that the OT force rules ever did. The fact under the “old guard” of force lore that you needed someone to guide and teach you in the ways of the force and continue to train over years to reach any significant level of control meant that there was merit and reason in defeating Vader and the Emperor as it meant the removal of that threat and the chance of it returning for a bloody long time. Even if someone was to discover the force themselves and start self teaching, it would be generations later before their offspring became anywhere near proficient and powerful enough to start equalling the jedi / sith of old and there’s still the matter of whether they went down the light or dark side in the end. The idea that because Kylo is gaining in power on the dark side that the force will grant someone on the light side increased power simply to balance out the force sounds cool at first but really it’s pretty silly. What if Rey turns to the dark side with Kylo? Then two other random people will just pop up out of no where with new light side abilities to fight the dark side users? And if they win, what’s the point if the force will then just grant someone else instant access to the dark side since there’s now an imbalance again?

I really don’t think Johnson had much of an idea what he was really doing and the implications they had for SW based on what is already established in the OT. More so it’s becoming pretty evident Disney don’t even have some kind of overarching plan for the ST based on the below comments from RJ:

“When I was writing the movie, I was doing it while they were shooting “The Force Awakens.” So it wasn’t like I was reading all these theories online and being at my typewriter and going “Ha! Ha! Gotcha!”” (which is absolute bullshit) “It was me coming up with a story. I was writing purely from a personal reaction to the script of “The Force Awakens” and what they were shooting.”

“…the first thing I had to crack in the movie is why Luke is on that island. I had to figure out something that made sense, and you don’t know much about where’s Luke’s head is at coming out of “The Force Awakens.””

“…I also have to say I’m not writing the next one, and I’m not sure what J.J. [Abrams] and [screenwriter] Chris Terrio are going to do in the next one with Luke. But setting up possibilities for the next one, honestly, it seems much like Obi-Wan going where he did after “New Hope”…"

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

.Val

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

Last Jedi is the last in my ratings.

OT >>>>> TFA > R1 > Prequels > TLJ

I’d agree with that but just swap TFA and R1 around:

OT >>>>> R1 > TFA > Prequels > TLJ

My TLJ rating - 5/100

DrDre said:

Disney Ruined Star Wars said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

NFBisms said:

DrDre said:

Creox said:

DrDre said:

I’ve been thinking a bit more about the broad stroke differences between TLJ and the rest of the saga, particulary the OT, and why some find TLJ refreshing, while others reject it. So, for a change I’m not going to talk about Rey’s Force powers, or Luke’s characterization, but more about in-universe history, and how that affects the story.

I think it is fair to say the OT is steeped in melancholy, and powerful connections to the past. The entire premise of ANH is to defeat the evil Empire, and to return the galaxy to a previous state, the fabled Old Republic. Luke is largely driven by the legend of his father, who’s friend Obi-Wan promises to teach him about an all but forgotten religion that both he and Luke’s father were a part of. The rest of the trilogy is largly set up such that Luke needs to vanguish the enemies of old, Darth Vader, and the Emperor, and avoid the pitfalls, that caused Vader, later revealed to be his father, to turn on his friend, and join the dark side.

To a large degree TFA operates in the same way. It treats Luke Skywalker as a legend of old, that both the heroes and villains are looking for. Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple, a place presumably steeped in Jedi history. It’s hinted, that Rey has a strong connection to the past, and Kylo Ren, who’s directly related to two other legends of the past, Han and Leia, was seduced to the dark side by some mysterious larger than life old anti-Yoda figure. Both Rey and Kylo Ren are struggling with their past, and the film ends with Kylo severing one of the links to his past by killing a past legend, while Rey connects with it by finding a past legend.

TLJ completely breaks with this Star Wars tradition. It actively deflates the past by telling us the history and legends we cherish are not as great as we want to believe. It actively cuts almost all ties to the past by killing off the remaining classic heroes (Leia technically not in the film), and even the links to the past TFA introduced. The mysterious Snoke is unceremoniously cast aside, and the secret of Rey’s past is, that she has no past, at least not one that’s relevant to her future. The family connection between good and evil that drove the OT and TFA is all but ignored, and then finally killed for good, when Leia gives up on her son, and Luke dies. What remains is a conflict between new heroes and new villains, that either killed their past, or don’t really have one.

It’s a bold move, which is sadly undercut by a strict adherence to the OT aesthetic and the OT’s basic premise of an Empire versus a small band of rebels. The question is why did the creators and by extension Disney decide to reboot the franchise, whilst also severing most connections to the past? My theory is, that it was done to make Star Wars more accessible to the general audience. Most of us hardcore fans will see the movies anyway. I know I probably will, despite my lack of enthousiasm. Anyone without much knowledge of Star Wars history will be able to see and enjoy episode IX. It’s starting point is similar to episode IV. There’s an evil Empire led by an evil maniac, a struggling rebellion led by an aspiring Jedi, and it looks like it’s part of the Star Wars brand. You need not know more.

It IS a bold move and one in which I think needed to happen for SW to evolve.

I might agree, if the bold move was used to create a new story, and new Star Wars lore but it wasn’t. It’s a reboot, and one that strips Star Wars from much of the deeper layers and themes, that made it stand out from the average blockbuster, in my opinion of course.

I think the themes and layers of TLJ are deeper and a little more meaningful than anything in both the OT and PT, especially in how the philosophical ideas tackled are all about our understanding of those previously established themes. It may be more of a meta-deconstruction of the themes, rather than a continuing re-affirmation of them, but they are still there and are still needed to be understood.

Well to me deconstructing and understanding are two very different things. IMO TLJ deconstructs the themes of the previous films not to provide understanding, but to devalue them. It’s thesis is not just that these themes are far less relevant going forward, but weren’t all that important in the first place, punctuated by Yoda’s page turner remark. The fact that the legends of old are used (or abused depending on your point of view) to transmit this message is also in of itself a clear attempt at devaluation, since evdn they are made to adhere to the new order.

Well, the two aren’t really disparate concepts, right? You can’t begin to deconstruct or devalue effectively without understanding what it is you’re deconstructing or devaluing in the first place. I wasn’t saying that TLJ was trying to provide clarity to the original trilogy’s themes - I do think TLJ and the originals are thematically different, just that they don’t conflict or clash like you say. TLJ can’t take away from the originals in my mind, because what it has to say, while different, is dependent on also understanding what the originals had to say and what it was that drove those films.

I think it’s disingenuous to say TLJ is an average blockbuster or that anything it has to say is on that level of Transformers, or Geostorm, or Avengers. If anything, it’s a little too heady for its own good. I definitely think it has pacing and tonal issues, as well as one too many plot threads that clearly have muddled what it was trying to say in the end, but its intentions and fundamental ideas have more depth than just “insert SW brand here.” It can’t be that, as well as trying to burn down Star Wars traditions, at the same time. It’s trying to be so much more, and whether or not it succeeds is just a matter of opinion.

And while something can be said about how it uses an evil Empire and plucky rebellion, as well as TIEs, X-Wings, and lightsabers, that’s all superficial when what informs and drives those things are clearly different enough to not be “Star Wars” to many people thematically.

Yes, but the whole point is, that the general audience doesn’t care about the themes that drove Star Wars in the past. In my view the current owners of the franchise feel Star Wars’ themes and connections to the past is a stumbling block for the general audience to connect with the material. In order to facilitate the growth of the potential market of these films, these themes and historic connections need to be simplified or removed. Star Wars is to be molded in the image of other franchises like the MCU universe, where connections between films are superficial at best. Anyone can watch a future MCU film, and enjoy them on their own terms, without having seen past entries. So will it be for Star Wars.

My point was that TLJ went out of its way to be alienating and have more depth than Star Wars as a franchise typically has. I don’t think the thematic differences = dumber, because the film was way too philosophical and dependent on understanding the previous concepts to be “simplified.” What it tackles about shame, hero worship, legacy, regret, and failure - the general human condition - is something that the typically morally binary Star Wars hadn’t even touched until now. But, like I said, it only touches those things in the context of us initially believing what we have about Star Wars as a universe.

Sure, this dumb hypothetical general audience doesn’t care about anything below surface level, but that’s the whole point. They could do anything with the Star Wars brand and it wouldn’t matter. Why would choosing to do and include things that makes Porkins4real’s 5-year-old ask “why Luke do that” and fans like you angry mean wider MCU-like appeal? The MCU is successful because it taps into that general audience AND die-hard comic book nerds, not one over the other. TLJ tried (imo) maybe way too hard to not be mass-appeal and bit itself in the ass critically. I don’t think the idea that Kennedy or Johnson thought doing that was a way to simplify things for a mass audience makes sense when you look at it.

Star Wars and Jaws were the two movies that heralded the blockbuster as a market/genre in the first place. Adhering to what Star Wars has been doing since 1977 would be what you described.

TLJ was only alienating to a group of die-hard fans. The critics and general audience ate it up. Many fans seem to be happy with it also. That’s about as general as the appeal can get. Like I said, I predict that there will be much less connective tissue between Star Wars films going forward. Individual directors may rise above the occassion, and provide depth and nuance, but to Star Wars as a brand and business, that won’t matter. Star Wars will become the MCU with space ships and lightsabers. Star Wars is hardly new and original anymore. However, for me personally something essential has been lost.

It has a 51% audience score on RT, which is as close to 100% divided as you can get. And aside from probably inaccurate and irrelevant website ratings systems, you can’t honestly believe TLJ is only getting flack from die-hard fans, right? It is intensely polarizing all over the internet - you’ve definitely observed that - and for me personally, it is irl as well.

(Tbh, I don’t like the assertion that only this upper tier of fan is who doesn’t like TLJ. Anyone can dislike this movie, not just the “die-hard fans.” Anyone can have problems with it, not just “woke” fans. )

That’s all beside the point, though. How does TLJ of all films support the claim that it will become MCU with ships and lightsabers? I don’t even disagree that that’s what KK is trying to do, with standalones coming out every year, but TLJ of all things is what proves that? If anything, it shows me that they’re willing to take risks that the MCU wouldn’t take. It can’t be so thematically incongruous and subversive to the SW formula for you, but also too safe and simplified.

Well, I believe the imdb rating of 7.6 by over 200,000 users is more representative of the general audience rating. This seems in line with most well recieved blockbusters.

Having read the reviews my take is that most of the harsh criticism against TLJ is directed at it’s use of the classic characters, how it fits in the larger Star Wars universe, and to what extend it adheres to established canon. All of these criticisms are typical for die-hard fans, not the general audience. Two more general criricisms I have read, are pacing issues, bad comedy, and useless story threads, but I don’t believe these are at the heart of the most vehement objections to the film.

I don’t agree this film is only criticized by die-hard fans.

I don’t know. The movie poll among the general audience gave the film A. The imdb rating is well above average, and hasn’t been called into question like the RT audience rating. Many audience reviews are filled with such blind hatred, they must come from fans, because the general audience wouldn’t care that much. From a general audience perspective I would say TLJ is an entertaining film with some flaws, and the 7.6 rating is not unreasonable.

I agree, if it wasn’t Episode 8 of the SW saga and just a standalone film based in another universe where they’re using magic / sorcery instead of the force (which might as well be the case in TLJ anyway) then that’s about the score I would have given it.

Even as a SW movie, based on just visuals and audio I would give it a 10/10. It’s when you consider everything else that it goes down the drain for me.

.Val

Ps. That is some quote history you’ve got going there, took me something like 20 seconds of continuous scrolling to get to the bottom of it all on the phone 😛

The argument over whether Rey won her fight against Kylo in TFA is exactly the same as the argument over Luke force choking the guards at Jabba’s palace - until brought up, one could not imagine it possibly being seen any other way nor then understand how it is.

For me at least, it has always been clear as day that Luke force chokes the guards and that Rey won against Kylo. He’s lying vanquished on the ground before Rey for a minimum of 10 seconds before the ground even starts shaking. He was disarmed, laying wounded on the ground and in the context of the dual - defeated.

Anyway I can appreciate there are some that have an alternate view on these scenes but I don’t think I’ll ever understand how.

.Val

[DominicCobb said:]

1. She did not beat Luke in that duel

[DrDre said:]
So, Luke wasn’t put on his back with Rey grabbing and pointing a lightsaber at him? I think she had the high ground, a sure win in the Star Wars universe since 2005. :p

LOL!

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:

I now have to maintain my own head canon that won’t gell with other family and friends I go to talk about it with that don’t see it as I do

I’ve been in that situation since 1997. You’ll get used to it.

Cheers, so enthused I am 😕

TV’s Frink said:

Yes Jason already responded to my comment so it’s already been covered and I’m not responding further as he has requested, however this

Valheru_84 said:

Also I see since you couldn’t incite a reaction from me in the other thread that your wife coincidentally had to have a go at me as well… (I understand ‘Frank your Majesty’ is your wife? If not I will edit my post accordingly)

is hilarious. I have no idea what led you to that conclusion.

From memory it was a comment by your very self and it was enough to make me believe till now that this was the case. In any event, it seems I am wrong so I will edit my post as stated.

.Val

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

I think your powers of comprehension and deduction are pretty weak. It’s pretty obvious in both the initial post you replied to and the below one that he is not just talking about that one deleted scene.

DrDre said:
Yes, but it betrays RJ’s feelings and intentions going into this. So, he’s taken off some of the sharper edges, but he still turned the Jedi’s 1000 generation legacy of peace and justice, and the OT’s theme of hope and redemption into a legacy of failure for both the Jedi and Luke personally. It’s more revisionist than Lucas has ever done.

I think your powers of being able to engage in a civil discussion without acting rude and immature are pretty weak.

Says the one that admits to being snarky whenever they reply.

This:

“I think your powers of comprehension and deduction are pretty weak.”

is not “being snarky.”

It’s just straight up hostile and nasty.

No I was calling you a hypocrite.

And my response to Joe was not hostile nor nasty. It was a dose of the medicine he’d just given Dre. If he can give it then he can take it as well. I thought Dre made a valiant and fair point, Joe simply tried to shut him down and outright dismiss his opinion which I shared so Joe might as well have directed it at me as well.

Yeah, in hindsight I could have approached it differently. So could have you who replicated the behaviour you were taking issue with? Hmm…

Wasn’t hostile or nasty? Dose of the same medicine? What the hell are you talking about? Joe’s been nothing of a model of good behavior, which is far more than I can say for you or most people in this thread (including myself). I feel like the only crime he did in your eyes was liking the movie in the first place. It’s telling that you haven’t responded to him since he clarified his point.

That’s your point of view. Mine was that he did reply in an unnecessary fashion. I’ve already admitted it wasn’t the best route to go. I don’t personally know Joe or have much experience so far of his posting history so I have no knowledge of his model behaviour. His reply simply continued to dismiss Dre’s opinion so I really had nothing more to say on it.

Also my original post is nothing monstrous like you’re make it out to be. I replied to him in the fashion I felt he’d replied to Dre and then explained why.

Valheru_84 said:

joefavs said:

So even though he ultimately decided the scene didn’t work and changed the film accordingly, you’re still upset at him for having the idea in the first place? I’m sorry, but that’s pretty weak.

I think your powers of comprehension and deduction are pretty weak. It’s pretty obvious in both the initial post you replied to and the below one that he is not just talking about that one deleted scene.

DrDre said:
Yes, but it betrays RJ’s feelings and intentions going into this. So, he’s taken off some of the sharper edges, but he still turned the Jedi’s 1000 generation legacy of peace and justice, and the OT’s theme of hope and redemption into a legacy of failure for both the Jedi and Luke personally. It’s more revisionist than Lucas has ever done.

DominicCobb said:
It’s clear you’re overly emotional about this movie and taking out your anger on other posters. I should have just reported you to the mods instead of engaging. Next time you act like a dick to another poster, that’s exactly what I’ll do.

I AM emotional about this movie, it fucking ruined Star Wars for me as I knew it. I now have to maintain my own head canon that won’t gell with other family and friends I go to talk about it with that don’t see it as I do and now I have nothing new to look forward to that carries on what I love in the OT.

But no, I am not taking it out on other members. I simply hit back when I’m hit. I don’t see myself as a punching bag. Next time you act like a dick to another member, I’ll be reporting you to.

.Val

The only thing I’ve said from the start was that there are signs if you look for them that this RT audience score is likely legitimate. That I’m not trying to use this to prove the movie is bad - that is up to each individual - but that there is a clear negative side of the audience and if this is true then it deserves as much as the positive side to exist rather than be constantly called into question and attempted to be undermined so that it makes the people that like the movie feel better, because they feel there’s no merit to the side claiming its a bad movie.

Why not just accept like we all normally do here, that there are people who like a movie and those who don’t and that they can both still coexist with each other. Unless there is real legitimate foul play at hand, there is not reason to discount the opinions of others just because they didn’t like what you liked and also want to express this and talk about it.

.Val

dahmage said:

Valheru_84 said:

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

Doesn’t sound very promising for “Solo” even if only part of this rumour spoken about in the below video is true…

https://youtu.be/8uobfgk_W8I

.Val

Serious question - do you just watch YouTube videos for all your information?

So I call you out on one matter and now you’re harassing me in other threads? I said it was a fucking rumour and posted it simply out off interest to see what others might think about it. Other members post shit like this all the time, start harassing them as well otherwise I might start to think you’re singling me out…

There are articles talking about the same rumour. I don’t take anything in these videos or articles as the complete picture on any matter but I thought it might be an interesting thing to mention in this thread since it was the first I’d heard about it:

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/screenrant.com/han-solo-movie-bomb-disney-lucasfilm/amp/

Also I see since you couldn’t incite a reaction from me in the other thread that your wife coincidentally had to have a go at me as well… (I understand ‘Frank your Majesty’ is your wife? If not I will edit my post accordingly)

Good work in this thread though, completely on topic to 😉

.Val

did you get your frustration out by responding to an old post? take it easy. I can tell you read frink’s post as an insult, but I am not convinced it was meant to be.

JEDIT: and oojason already dealt with it, so let it be in the past. (24 hours past)

Except I can see this being an ongoing theme now, so lets see what Frink has to say…

Thanks for the concern though and I’m happy to let this slip into the pages of forum history if Frink is.

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

Doesn’t sound very promising for “Solo” even if only part of this rumour spoken about in the below video is true…

https://youtu.be/8uobfgk_W8I

.Val

Serious question - do you just watch YouTube videos for all your information?

So I call you out on one matter and now you’re harassing me in other threads? I said it was a fucking rumour and posted it simply out off interest to see what others might think about it. Other members post shit like this all the time, start harassing them as well otherwise I might start to think you’re singling me out…

There are articles talking about the same rumour. I don’t take anything in these videos or articles as the complete picture on any matter but I thought it might be an interesting thing to mention in this thread since it was the first I’d heard about it:

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/screenrant.com/han-solo-movie-bomb-disney-lucasfilm/amp/

Anyway good work in this thread, completely on topic 😉

.Val

TV’s Frink said:

Valheru_84 said:

It seems funny that people are claiming TLJ is riddled with a feminism agenda driven by Kathleen Kennedy and now RT and YouTube scores are mostly from young males?

How is that funny? Who is mostly likely to complain about a “feminism agenda driven by Kathleen Kennedy,” or even believe it exists in the first place?

Hint: It’s not Grandma Bessie.

Use of “funny” in that way is just another way of saying “weird”.

It seems weird that suddenly it’s not just a small subset of the audience, now it’s a “mostly young male” subset and the assumption and generalisation is made that they will automatically bad mouth the movie because they think it is feminist propaganda.

In arguments trying to invalidate negative scores, “mostly young males” is now the next excuse in line to be thrown up as to why these scores for some reason have to be incorrect.

TV’s Frink said:

Any online “polls” (which is essentially what RT audience scores are) that aren’t scientifically/statistically controlled in some manner are worthless.

"We have several teams of security, network, and social database experts who constantly monitor reviews and ratings to ensure that they are genuine,”

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/2017/12/20/rotten-tomatoes-confirms-its-55-last-jedi-audience-score-is-100-authentic/amp/

Take that for what you will but I’d take that as scientific and statistically controlled to some extent.

Also if RT is so inconsequential then why all then controversy in the first place?

Frank your Majesty said:

As the article and the part that I quoted say, the exit polls are adjusted to better represent the complete audience, while RT scores and Youtube upvotes come from a very specific group of mostly young males, so they are not representative of the whole audience.

Do you have stats to back that up? (mostly young males?). It seems funny that people are claiming TLJ is riddled with a feminism agenda driven by Kathleen Kennedy and now RT and YouTube scores are mostly from young males?

Frank your Majesty said:

I’m referring specifically to the exit polls, as you might have seen by me quoting them.

Ok, so you do. But the entire article is based on calling into question the legitimacy of RTs audience score which I assumed was the point you were trying to remind everyone about. Sorry if I assumed wrongly.

Frank your Majesty said:
Like upvots on a Youtube review of a movie, reviews on RT are only written by people who have very strong feelings about the movie, being it either very positive or very negative.

What is wrong with this and how does it invalidate the RT score? And are all movie goers forced to take exit polls? Also these results can similarly be called into question since they only capture the immediate reaction. My immediate reaction was of disappointment and conflicted feelings but overall I would have said the movie was “ok” and maybe given it 2.5/5 stars. Upon reflection days later, I found that I hate the movie and would give it 0.5/5 at most for at least getting the aesthetic and sound of SW right and I’m not going to watch IX or Solo at the cinemas. This is a marked difference. I’m not going to base whether I see the future movies on how I felt straight after (the point of exit polls) but how I end up feeling in the long run. So the exit poll is flawed as well.