Vaderisnothayden

Scruffy said:

In this scenario, I have abandoned most of the melodramatic plot threads that built up both around the real story and various fan interpretations. Vader does not accidentally kill his wife, they are not passionately in love until the end, Vader's refusal to let his wife go as per a murky prophetic dream does not drive him into the Sith (yecch). He simply accrues more and more power, becomes more important on a galactic scale, and forgets about her. I like this because it's much more gradual, and parallels my idea of how the fall should've been.

Sounds like an improvement. The story could definitely have done without those things you took out. Also, a major change could have been made by casting somebody other than Hayden Christensen.  I would have picked Heath Ledger.

I read on imdb that the two non-mono mixes were updated with the "A New Hope" name and the mono was not. Certainly that implies the non-mono mixes were plenty in use for the 1981ANH reissue, at least as much as the mono.

I've read elsewhere that the 4th mix was 1985 vhs (which skyjedi refers to), so I guess that means they didn't stuff mono lines (like "Close the blast doors") into non-mono mixes in 81, because that would have been a new mix before 1985? 

Re what's in the 1985 mix, I've got a book called "The Scripts" that's a collection of the continuity scripts for the OOT. It was published in 1995 in Britain. The scripts inside are supposed to match the films exactly. The book came out as a companion to the 1995 vhs release of the OOT. I suspect its version of the script matches the 1995 vhs version.

Would I be right in saying the 1995 vhs's audio is the 1985 mix made for the 1985 vhs?

The book has 3PO's tractor beam line like the 1985 vhs mix but lacks "Close the blast doors" and it has "Blast it Biggs" like the non-mono and when the stormtroopers nearly find the droids in Mos Eisley they say the door is "locked" not "secure" and locked is the non-mono version. So if I'm right, that's what lines are in the 1985 mix. Basically the non-mono version plus the tractor beam line.

Thanks.

SilverWook said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

Does anybody know if the 35mm print was simultaneously released on the same opening date as the 70mm (ESB's opening date) or was it released later?

My guess is the 35mm came out later. When I lived in NJ back in 1980, there was only one theater near me that had Empire opening weekend, and it was a 70mm venue. People were driving a long way to see it!

 

Returning to the article you posted earlier on this thread, it looks like most of the first wave enagements were 70mm but not all. So I guess 35mm came out at the same time but not a lot of it. Unless I'm understanding that wrong.

But what if there was a version of it around before people were doing much recording stuff on vhs tapes? Not everything gets on vhs. I don't know. I find it hard to dismiss something totally when a lot of people are claiming it independently.

I read on imdb that in he 1981 reissue of the first film "Close the blast doors" was added and "Blast it Biggs" was changed to "Blast it Wedge". Is this true? Does this mean the reissue was mono or was this added in to non-mono? 

In the showings 1981-85 was any particular mix (mono, 70mm, 35mm) dominant? Were those mono line changes dominant?

C3PX said:

Alright Vaderisnohayden, I finally searched some of our older threads on this topic, you will likely find these an interesting read.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Closest-to-1977-release/post/214945/#post214945

 

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/my-memory-isnt-that-bad-is-it/topic/6521/

 

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Lukes-rope-throwing-talents-in-EP4/post/216470/#post216470

Thanks. :)

C3PX said:

Stuff like this comes about from one guy posting something along the lines of, "I am 100% that the first time I saw Star Wars it had a scene where Luke misses the first time he throws the grappling hook. When I bought the VHS that scene was missing! Perhaps this was on an alternative TV version, since the first time I saw Star Wars was when it aired as the 9:00 movie on channel four here in the bay area. That was back sometime in the mid eighties." and another poster responds something along the lines of, "Yeah, I could have sworn I had seen a scene where Luke missed the first time too, I also live in the bay area, maybe I am remembering it from the TV broadcast." and a third poster after having read the previous too posters suddenly recollects, "You know what, now that you mention it, Luke missing sounds familiar, I also lived in the bay area in the 80s, maybe I happened to see that broadcast, probably that is why it sounds familiar to me."

 

Yeah but if a number of people in the bay area are thinking they saw this thing, doesn't it raise the question that maybe that DID see something?

Does anybody know if the ESB 35mm was released on the same day as the 70mm?

Hunter6 said:

The double throw grappling hook scene:
Here is a little help, The double throw grappling hook scene was shown on channel 4 (kron/NBC) in bay area, back in the mid-80's in their TV version at 9:00pm. 

Did this tv version include any other deleted stuff?

Yes, I saw I read your post wrong. I was editing my post while you were posting your latest.

I just find it hard to outright dismiss all these witness accounts when it's very plausible that Lucas might change things after release and when I don't trust Lucas and his associates to tell the truth.

adywan said:

Ok direct from starwars.com:

There. the Jabba scenes were never finished and never in any version of the movie. So how could these people have seen it in this extended cut? one urban myth ended.

and about the Biggs footage:

http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/episode4/Biggs.html

accept it. this whole "extended cut" of star wars never existed. It is just an urban myth.

I know the official account that the Jabba scene wasn't in the final cut because Lucas couldn't get the creature for it, but I don't trust that account. See my first post on this page. I address reasons for questioning that account. It's not that I think the scene was in there, but when there's any reason to doubt the account and people are claiming to have seen it, questions are raised.

Re the Biggs footage, that article only addresses the Tatooine Biggs scene, not the Yavin one which the Star Wars Unauthorized Compendium says was in the film.

Also, the article claims the Biggs Tatooine scene was never shown in public, but on what are they basing that claim? Also, they say the sound mix wasn't finished and the scene was only in rough cuts, but again, we don't know where their info is from. I mean, they might be just giving us the offical line that's been passed around and I'm not in the habit of trusting Lucas and his associates. And I don't know, maybe somehow a rough cut could have gotten out?

I don't mean to be a pain in the ass about this, I'm just concerned with what happened and I don't see justification for dismissing these claims outright. The official accounts can be wrong and I don't trust Lucas and co.

Thanks for the info, anyway. :)

adywan said:

And only some audio differences were used from the 70mm for the SE. the 70mm wasn't the final version as Lucas ordered a few extra fx shots of the falcon at the end amongst others. The 70mm was the first version with the 35mm being the final version, prior to 1977

 

That page I linked to does seem certain the 70mm was the later version, which Lucas did last minute changes on. Which would fit with it having extra dialog. I'd like to believe that the 35mm was the later one, but I'd like more info before being sure on that.

Were they both released on the opening day?

Where does the last paragraph of what you (adywan) quoted come from?

They say six minutes of Biggs were trashed. I haven't timed the Biggs scenes. I suppose we could assume it was both the Yavin and Tatooine Biggs scenes, but until somebody times them we don't know that for sure. So some of the Biggs stuff could have made it into the final cut, like the short Yavin Biggs scene the Star Wars Unauthorized Compendium claims was in there.

The different creature you mention Han meeting instead of Jabba actually was Jabba, as Marvel envisioned him. But maybe they could have seen a Jabba scene with the human Jabba in the screening, because the comic seemed to be doing its own thing with Jabba. The script (which they were supposedly working from) describes a sluglike Jabba but the comic didn't follow that. Or if they never saw the Jabba scene Lucas could have added the Jabba back after, though I do think that's unlikely. From what Thomas is saying they had the comic already made up and printing when he saw that screening, so what they saw in the screening wouldn't necessarily have affected what ended up in the comic.

Thomas remarks on the Anchorhead group of friends scene being missing because it was in the comic. But the Jabba scene was in the comic too, so why didn't he remark on it being missing if it wasn't shown at his screening?

From that last paragraph it sounds like the Biggs scenes weren't cut until after the preview screenings, except (presumably) for the one with the other friends, which Thomas mentions being gone.

Thanks for the article(s) anyway. Though I'd appreciate if you could say where that last paragraph (the one where they mention cutting six minutes of Biggs) comes from.

Johnny Ringo said:

without explanations as to how you arrived at certain scores it's hard [for me] to see this as much more than prequel bashing,  

The more prequel bashing the better. The prequels need to be bashed, particularly ROTS.

skyjedi2005 said:

To me the special editions and prequels are not real star wars. 

I agree with that view.

I'd rate Empire Strikes Back number one, but Return of the Jedi has some of the best stuff in the films. I'd put Star Wars third, because while it's a great film I feel it's a bit weaker than ESB and ROTJ. That's one, two and three. All those three are great films, a joy to watch.

Phantom Menace is a huge drop from the OT but it's next. It's closest to being Star Wars out of the prequels. It's got the most humanity and depth out of the prequels, even if it's shallow by the standards of the OT. The cgi characters don't fit with Star Wars at all, but Neeson and Portman are good and Jake Lloyd is at least better than Hayden Christensen. The film doesn't have the unnatural emptiness of the later two prequels.

Attack of the Clones is a biiig drop from Phantom Menace. After I saw this film I wasn't interested in seeing the next one. This film was mostly crap. Even apart from the dreadful fake romance. And that battle at the end with the Jedi was so bland and feelingless, and Yoda fighting with a lightsaber has to be one of the lamest sights ever.

Revenge of the Shit is as big a drop from AOTC as AOTC is from TPM. Horrendous. One of the very worst films I've ever seen. Absolute shite. Absolutely zero depth of feeling or humanity. Flat crap. I can't belive how bad this film is. So much bad acting. Crap cgi. Feelingless uninvolving battle scenes, from the useless opening battle down to the awfulness of the overdone painful lava fight and the pathetic Yoda vs Palpatine. The film has a seriously off message (love is bad, don't love, love turns you bad, passion is bad) and it seems to follow this message in not having any depth of feeling. We're supposed to be sad when the Jedi are "tragically" killed, but they're such a bunch of insufferable jerks that it doesn't work at all. Anakin turning to the dark side is written so poorly it's laughable. And Hayden Christensen's performance was worthy of twenty razzies. Let's also note the the awful bland visual look of the film. You have to work hard to make a film this bad. It really takes effort. Supreme awfulness. A totally shallow empty film.

Romeo and Juliet's romance was bloody lame. Hardly the best romance to follow as an example for a good story.

Say for a moment that Hunter6 was right and an extended print did get some showings, does anybody have any idea why it might have been released?

Re the scenes not having dubbed or foleyed sound, the Jabba and Han and Biggs on Yavin scenes sure did when they were released as part of the SE and I doubt that sound was recorded with the actors in the 90s. If those scenes had it why not the others? Behind the Magic's versions of them may just have been crappy versions -maybe versions with improved sound did exist and didn't survive or weren't put on the disk for some reason.

I don't see how we can rule out that an extended cut might have gotten out. We've got no absolute proof that it got out but we've gots tons of witness accounts it seems. And if Lucasfilm claims it didn't happen, that means nothing -since when are we going to trust them?

That article mentioning Luke missing with the grappling hook as a known claim is notable seeing as a guy on this forum claimed that. Why would multiple people claim that if nobody saw it? It's in the novelization, but would that really make them envision it? Lots of people?

The idea of Lucas changing the film after it was released is pretty plausible in light of events 1997-onwards.

I find it hard to disimiss all these witness accounts. All that extra stuff being put in the adaptions would fit with it being released as part of the film. I mean, those adaptions make it look like there's something missing from the version of the film we know.

That article mentions Chewie not scaring the little droid in the Death Star as one of the changes people claim to have seen. Imdb seems to credit that, because they have it listed on their page of alternate versions of the film.

 adywan said:

Hasn't this already been debunked because it was never even filmed? So how the hell could they have seen it? It was the same with ESB when people swore that they saw the Wampa drag Luke off and attack the rebel base. Yet again they scrapped that idea during filming so how the hell would it end up finished in a theatre showing?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_scenes_cut_from_Star_Wars_Episode_V:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It looks like some of those scenes were filmed. They've got photos there of Luke manning a gun in the base, seemingly against wampas and a tauntaun dead in the base seemingly killed by wampas.

ESB was a different thing all together. The 70mm version and the 35mm were different, with the 70mm version being slightly shorter. The 35mm was the final cut, with a few extra shots and some differing fx, audio and wipes. This i saw, along with many other people and has been documented. Strangely enough, if you think about it, the 70mm version is actually the original, with the 35mm which we all know and love is actually a special edition. lol

See here:

http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/empire/index.htm

It sounds from that like the 70mm was the final version. That's the version they used for the SE I think. It has a few extra lines.

Does anybody know if the 35mm print was simultaneously released on the same opening date as the 70mm (ESB's opening date) or was it released later?

Thanks. :)

I thought Padme was a good character in The Phantom Menace, but they screwed her up in the later two films. I didn't have a big problem with Anakin in Phantom, though I wasn't entirely satisfied with him either. But Anakin in the later two films was a total failure. Between the writing and the acting they created a contemptible and unlikable character who was downright annoying as well. He was the worst thing in the prequels. Give me Jar Jar any day over that guy. Putting a character like that at the core of the films destroyed any hope those two films had of working. 

I find it impossible to believe that when Lucas was putting the impressive Darth Vader and the benevolent sympathic Sebastian Shaw Anakin onscreen that he was envisioning the younger Anakin as being the insubstantial unsympathtic piece of crap we saw in the later two prequels. Maybe he changed his vision (I doubt he'd ever admit that) or maybe he failed to put his vision onscreen properly (I'd bet a bit of both). But one way or another ATOC/ROTS Anakin was a was a failure of filmmaking and left the later two prequels without a soul. No wonder the romance didn't work.

And yeah, Han and Leia were two great characters who it was easy to like. Splendid performances were an important part of that.

(Btw, I recognize that Anakin was intended to be a pretty faulted guy, but I doubt he was intended to be so insubstantial, shallow and contemptible, and so one-sidely negative, and so wussy.)

Empire Strikes Back had two original versions that I know of. A 35mm version that was more widely seen and a 70mm version with a good dose of small differences. The 70mm version is where Luke says "You're lucky to get out of there" to R2 on Dagobah instead of "You're lucky you don't taste very good." Also Luke thanks 3PO for his concern after Luke's recovered from his Hoth wampa experience.

The question I have is which version was made first? Also did either version come out after the film was first released (like the mono did for Star Wars)? And was either version considered more definitive? (On my mono thread somebody said the mono was considered definitive for Star Wars. I'm wondering if there was any comparable preference in ESB).

(If you want a good list of the differences the 70mm had from the 35mm you can look at the Wookieepedia Star Wars wikia article on List of changes in Star Wars re-releases, in the Changes to the Original Trilogy section. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_changes_in_Star_Wars_re-releases )

I think the 70mm was used as the basis for the SE version.

Thanks for the info. Does anybody know when the mono mix actually hit theatres? What year or whatever.

skyjedi2005 said:

No version with those scenes was ever released.  Because A. The effects are not finished on those scenes.  B.  No Music or foley work or adr exists only the location set dialogue.

Are you sure there's no foley or adr for stuff like the Biggs scenes?

C3PX said:

We have actually had some interesting indepth discussions on this in here before. Once with a fellow who swore he had seen those very scenes with his own eyes, and was irritated to be told that he had been imagining things, I think, it has been so long ago my details are fuzzy.I'd do the search function to try to find it for you, but the new forum's search function always just pisses me off, so I will let somebody else do it for you. I believe the particular post I am referring to began with a poster asking where he could get his hands on a cut of Empire Strikes Back with extended Hoth scenes he remembered from when he saw it in the theater, or he was looking for a cut of Star Wars where Luke swings the grabbling hook and misses the first time and has to try again, I don't remember which one the conversation started out with, but I think both were discussed.  

 

This poster you say claimed he saw other scenes, was it just extended Hoth scenes and the Luke with grappling hook thing, or do you mean he claimed he saw some of the scenes I mentioned?

Also, on the same page as one if those posts I linked to, somebody claims to have seen a version of Empire Strikes Back in New Jersey in which a scene was missing, the scene where you see the back of Vader's head under the helmet.

Somebody here once said that there's anecdotal evidence that Lucas was working on the mono mix when Star Wars was released. Can anybody clarify what working on the mono mix would mean in that context? Was he recording it then with the actors or just putting it together, with the actor work being before then?

Also, does anybody know what date or year the mono mix for the film was first released?