Vaderisnothayden

rcb said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

So you don't like Greivous? ;)

I don't hate him as much as you, but he's a cartoon character who totally doesn't belong in serious live action Star Wars.

 

 just for your info., grevious is one of my favorite villians and he's no different from the movie.

Again you say he's no different from the movie. I don't see the relevance of that. He's a cartoon character whether he's in the movies or in the cartoon. Either way he doesn't belong in live action Star Wars.

So you don't like Greivous? ;)

I don't hate him as much as you, but he's a cartoon character who totally doesn't belong in serious live action Star Wars.

C3PX said:

Johnboy3434 said:

7.) Sifo-Dyas is a prime example of how the Jedi don't constantly monitor each other. I assume it's because there's supposed to be a sense of trust. The Council can trust a Jedi to answer when he is called upon, and a Jedi can trust the Council not to spy on his activities. Dooku's fall to the Dark Side wasn't known until AotC. His official reasoning for leaving the order was that he became disillusioned after the death of Qui-Gon. Many Jedi have left the order for philosophical reasons that aren't Dark Side-related, and the Order makes no attempt to stop them. One in particular was even shown to come visit the Temple and catch up with old friends on occasion.

But that is all just meaningless EU stuff, isn't it? That stuff gets over written all the time. At one point Boba Fett was a Rorschach-esque self-righteous young man named Jaster Mareel. Now, I bet if you even so much as mentioned Jaster Mareel over at a place like TF.n or SW.com you'd get lynched.

Those stories are just made up by various sci-fi writers who get paid for it, if one day George or the creative forces behind the TV show decide to do something that contradicts those books, then suddenly they become irrelevant.

As for Sifo-Dyas being an example, do we even hear anything about him for him to be an example? I though Sifo-Dyas died before ording the clone army, which means he is not really the one who did it, right? Is there anything about him mentioned in the movie beyond, "Jedi master Syfo-Dyas..." "Sifo-who?" "Sifo- Dy-- Ah, screw it! He isn't even important to the plot."

 

 

Well yeah, it is EU and the EU gets written over all the time. But then non-EU gets written over too -look at Leia's memories of her mother, and originally Anakin was supposed to be in his 60s in ROTJ (that's why they cast a 77 year old actor) which meant Anakin should have been in his forties in ROTS. And Lucas does seem to be using the EU more nowadays. I think The Clone Wars show is supposed to be more than just EU (Lucas seems to include it in his Star Wars universe) and it's used Asajj Ventress who's from the EU (started out in the comics). The line between EU and non-EU is blurring. Look at Force Unleashed for example. With a lot of stuff the EU is all there is to go on. I'm all for not taking the EU seriously, but that's pretty much all there is here. Except that there was no indication in the prequels that Su Doku was ever in any trouble for leaving the Jedi. Funny thing is the EU (I think starting with the novelizations) claims that only 21 Jedi masters ever left the order, at least in the 2000 or so years before ROTS. Now that's damn implausible. In 2000 or more years more than 21 Jedi Masters would want to have sex.

Blackjack said:

 he might as well have made the box with a picture of him posing with his middle fingers extended.

 

 

 

Hell yeah!

"the versions that will be on the disc will be as george Lucas sees them today."

As George sees them, for god's sake. Wtf is so wrong with wanting to see a classic movie in its real form, the version it came out in? The shit we have to take. As George sees them! If he sees ROTJ with Hayden Christensen in the end then all I can say is he sees some pretty strange things.

!!

Gaffer Tape said:

JohnBoy's post makes me wonder something else.  Many things, actually.  If they are supposed to live at the Jedi Temple but aren't monitored (even a check-in/check-out system), when are they required to be at the temple?  Do they have to be there at all?  Is every indivdual Jedi summoned when each individual Jedi has something particular to do?  How often does the council meet?  Who cleans the temple?  Do Jedi have single rooms or do they bunk with other Jedi?  Are they required to check in every so often?  And if so, with whom?  How will they know if someone just never comes back?  That's not out of the realm of possibility:  after all, Dooku and Sifo-Dias managed to elude their grasp.

Obviously, I'm looking to PT-era EU readers to come to my aid here.  ^_^

I think some Jedi were allowed to just quit the order. In the EU Quinlan Vos intended to retire after the Clone Wars. And I don't get the impression Count Su Doku was in any trouble when he quit. But I don't know.

.

And let's not forget that the prequels try to pass off Hayden Christensen as the guy who's going to be Darth Vader, which is about as implausible as casting Arnold Schwarzenegger as Padme.

And he started writing the prequels in 1994, so I guess maybe we can date his decision to fuck up Star Wars to the mid 90s. But then there's a quote in zombie's book with Rick McCallum saying that they knew back in 1990 that the first two prequels were going to be tough with anybody who had a relationship with the original films and anybody over 18. That sounds to me like a plan to make Star Wars films that would be at odds with the old ones and that would be hated by anybody who liked the old ones. So it sounds like the rot goes back to 1990 to some extent at least.

Well there you go, Lucas planned all the way back then to totally replace the OOT with the SE. The SE wasn't an alternative version, it was to be THE version, the only version. Which to my mind totally invalidates all the Star WARs "canon" that came out from that time on, because he was breaking with the real canon, the OOT. The prequels and all that stuff exist in an alternate Star Wars universe in which the OT is the SE not the OOT. The prequels do not exist in the same Star Wars universe as the OOT. In the original Star Wars universe the backstory is the backstory Lucas had in 1983, not the changed version he made into the prequels. 

Does anybody know when he decided to make the special edition or started work on it?

Scruffy said:

As for Mace Windu, I was unaware he had a character.

 lol! Indeed. So bland.

As for the big question of this thread, I think it comes down to the prequels being a load of shit. I'd say don't expect writing that makes sense from a film that preaches that love is bad and makes you kill kiddies.

That's not the Disney I know. But I'm not saying I know Disney well. The point about Greivous is he's totally in the style of an animated villain. You can see the same pattern at work in Sebulba, but Greivous just takes it so far, and we're supposed to take him seriously.

See, if it meant the last time the OOT was ever going to be released then that catches Lucas as intending all the way back then to totally replace the OOT. And a lot of people didn't get the idea he was totally replacing them until much later, like maybe 2004 or something.

TMBTM said:

Another major failure of the PT that is often cited, is its loss of the black vs. white theme we had from the original.

I really don't want to sound too much like a Lucas apologist (well I guess it's too late I'm afraid!) but it's what the PT are all about: showing us that the galaxy was not black vs white twenty years before the OT. Lucas took pretty much all the things we knew and show them in a way that we are not prepare to watch. I don't say that the result is great (far from it), I just say that it was an interesting idea and it should be respected as an artist vision. That's why I usualy don't say "it's sucks" or that "Lucas raped my childhood" kind of thing, because 1: the OT was my childhood (so the only thing I'm really pissed off is the DVD of the true original OT) and 2: if we can't live with the PT we just have to not buy the DVDs (or just to make fanedit maybe! ;) )

This is a complex topic. Yes it was valid to make the PT more gey. That had been the intention from way back for at least the sequel trilogy anyway. But it's a question of HOW you make it more grey. It should have been done with a hint of the original trilogy's approach, because it's in the same universe. One of the keys to the original trilogy is that the villains were seriously sinister and the heroes were sympathetic. That is not entirely incompatible with making it grey, not if you do it carefully. You can have a hero be seriously faulted and going dark and still have them sympathetic in some crucial way, enough to connect you with them. Instead we got annoying useless Anakin, posery Kenobi and lame-in-the-later-two-movies Padme. (In the first movie they managed more ok -Padme was good in that and Qui Gon was sympathetic, though Kenobi was at his worst there.) Also there's respecting the good guys. In the OT you can respect the rebels and their leaders, but in the prequels a lot of people are hard to respect. In the prequels the august Jedi council are such a bunch of idiots. You can't respect them and you can't like them. Sure, I get that the Jedi were supposed to be shown as flawed, but did they have to be portrayed as such annoying useless windbags? I didn't give a fart when they were killed off, and we clearly were supposed to care about and respect them enough to care when they died. Clearly Lucas screwed up here. Pretty much everybody in the prequels is more pretentious than equaivalent characters were in the OT. Some of that may be justified, but certainly it's taken too far. It's not simply that characters are painted grey, rather it's that the films seem to have no faith in you being able to truly like or respect anybody (the last two films anyway). And it's not simpy that things were more artificial in the prequels era, but rather that the creative vision is more artificial and pretentious.

As for villains, they totally screwed up in the portrayal of Palpatine from the point of Windu confronting him onwards. That awful makeup and the overdone performance. Palpatine was overdone in ROTJ, but in a way that worked. In ROTS it was in a way that didn't work. We also had the Trade Federation. Ok, they were meant to be a bit grey, but did they have to be done comically? Or the various enemy droids, done for laughs. If the films were done back in the 80s those droids wouldn't have been done like that. Or General Greivous, who came off totally like a refugee from a disney movie.

rcb said:

how do you change that? that's pretty out in the open there and hard to get rid of. unless you have an idea.

You dump ROTS, then there's no problem.

Back in 1995 the original version of the original trilogy was released on VHS advertised as "Last time available" or something like that. Now, the way I remember it, I understood that as meaning it was the last time the original version was going to be available, because it was going to be replaced by the special edition.

But I'm not sure if I'm not just mixing up a later interpretation with earlier memories or if my interpretation of "Last time available" was right. I mean, could it have been last time Star wars is available on VHS because it's going to be replaced by DVD? I doubt it, because didn't dvd not come in until 1998 or something like that? Or maybe last time available on vhs because laser dic is going to replace VHS? I certainly don't remember laser disc being that big, so I don't find that terribly plausible. The last laser disc release was the "definitive collection" in 1993. If anybody has any ideas on this please share.

If it was last time the original version was going to be available because it was going to be replaced by the special edition, that means we knew about the special edition back in 1995. I don't remember when I first heard that the special edition was going to be made. Does anybody know when the news first got around?

But if it did mean last-time-because- the-special-edition-is-going-to-replace-it, that means that already in 1995 it was clear policy that the special edition was going to replace the original totally.

I'd like to hear what anybody remembers or thinks about this.

(Edited in: I saw a poster for the video release (on ebay) and it says "THE ORIGINAL ONE LAST TIME", but I don't know if "The original" means the original trilogy or the original versions and if one last time means last time ever released or only for VHS or whatever.)

And Star Wars blu ray would probably be some horribly rerevised special edition of a special edition of a special edition with Jar Jar as Han Solo. Still, if the GOUT continues to outsell the PT maybe someday Lucasfilm will be motivated to give us the real thing on future formats.

negative1 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

Is that for the old non-GOUT boxed set OT or for the GOUT?

It's good to see the OT outselling the PT.

 

 

sorry,

i should have been clearer,

those statistics are for both the NEW OT boxed set, and the NEW PT boxed sets.

i'm pretty sure they'll stop stocking the older ones from now one, and just carry

these new sets.

later

-1

That's hilarious, the GOUT is doing significantly better than Lucas's beloved godforsaken pukewell trilogy.

Further rewatching of the Clone Wars eps. You know, I find myself looking at this thing very differently depending on which of two ways I view it -if I view it as supposed to be Star wars canon or if I view it as just an insignificant piece of expanded universe. As the first it's criminally shallow, like the later two prequels, and annoys in various ways. As the second I don't mind it and feel it has its good points if judged as a non-serious animated show. The problem is that Lucasfilm seem to be pushing us to go for the first.

Even the prequels wouldn't be quite as bad as they are if they weren't meant to be serious canon Star Wars. They fail utterly as canon Star Wars. They're really in reality no higher than expanded universe spinoff material, but alas Lucas isn't go to agree to calling them that any time soon. I guess the whole of modern Star Wars is just an exercise in expanded universe.

Anakin in the show is better than the Hayden Christensen version, but he's still not a very believable Anakin. In the show he's basically an anonymous sort of ordinary joe shmoe. But Anakin is supposed to a Jedi hero who turns into a forceful iron-willed villain and then into the wise benevolent old guy Sebastian Shaw played at the end of ROTJ. I just can't see the show's Anakin being/becoming all that. He's too much of a limited bland joe shmoe. And there are some hints of the whiney Anakin.

Baronlando said:

They cannot give these away at the stores around me, they're just piled up, but maybe after christmas someone will actually see them. (and hopefully the big sales of Dark Knight will inspire Lucasfilm to get it right. )

Is it just the OT box that's not selling or is the PT not selling too?

Is that for the old non-GOUT boxed set OT or for the GOUT?

It's good to see the OT outselling the PT.

sunday256 said (to skyjedi):

You really do have issues.

 

Because he doesn't worship The Great God Lucas? That's having issues?

Negative1: Ok :) 

My above criticisms still standing, the show works better as an animated show than the prequels work as movies, but then I don't expect a lot from an animated show. It's still passing off superficial material as canon Star Wars, which is one of the things that's so wrong about the prequels. If only they didn't push this as canon Star Wars. If they treated it like Droids or something I would have a lot less problem with it. As it stands now, it's part of the unrealness that characterizes modern Star Wars "canon". And speaking of that, I saw Force Unleashed on youtube and it was better than the later 2 prequels and more Star Warsy. Still not canon, though.

The voice for Ashoka isn't badly done, but the eyes really get in the way of that. The voice for Padme doesn't sound right at all. Luminara comes off like a poser, like so many of the prequel era Jedi.

Interesting to know that Ron Perlman voiced the guy who kidnapped R2. I thought there was something familiar about the voice. Really enjoyed Hellboy 2 recently -it was much better than the first one. The animation for his character on the Clone Wars show is one of the better done character animations.

Overall the show has a very shallow feel, if maybe more alive than the movie.

I think you might first do well being concerned if negative1 has had a bad day, considering the tone of his post to me. There was a whole lot of sneering and implying I'm dishonest and telling me where I should post. Hardly friendly posting. Maybe we have reason to be concerned that the poor guy has had a really bad day. Otherwise why would he lash out at me like that?

Now, onto other matters. I've gone onto youtube and looked at various bits of the show there. Not terribly impressed. The tone is seriously painful. There was a good moment in the first ep when the Clone troops are talking and basically say they don't get Yoda, but generally the show doesn't seem to be good from what I've seen. Anakin is still annoying and he still frowns like Hayden in ROTS. Ashoka's eyes still make it very hard to relate to the character properly. Ventress is overdone and painful. Yoda has a few moments when he's ok but mostly he's annoying, as he generally is in the prequels. Count Su Doku is still an annoying pompous ass (so many characters in the prequel universe seem pretentious to one degree or another). Those droid soldiers are like fingernails on a black board and Greivous still belongs in a Disney feature. There's a horrible ROTS-ish moment when R2 has been lost and Kenobi coldly tells Anakin he shouldn't be bothered because he shouldn't have attachments. Puke! That's straight out of ROTS's anti-love message. I suppose there could be worse things than this show. I'm not seeing it in ideal circumstances. I'll probably see more of it sometime to get a better notion of it. But I seriously can't get the enthusiasm some people have for it. All in all it could be worse though, I guess. But from what I've seen it's hardly the "step in the right direction" some people have hailed it as being, let alone at all OT-ish.

Oh and I saw the first episode of A Clone Apart, which was way cooler.

negative1 said:

Vaderisnothayden said:

Oh quit trying to hit me over the head for not liking your sacred show.

maybe if you actually HAD a valid opinion about the ACTUAL SHOW people would actually

listen or read what you had to say (but since you haven't actually seen it, not liking something

you haven't seen is kind of preemptive)

When there's been no decent Star Wars screen fiction since 1983 and Lucas clearly has some severely mistaken ideas about Star Wars, then the quality is not going to suddenly rush in in some kid-aimed animated show with awful animation set in the prequels universe. Not going to happen.

right..... and there's nothing to look forward to in the live action show, books, games, comics,

or anything else 'star wars' related... you can just keep re-watching the OOT over and over

again..

As for the claim that the show could be OT-ish, that's even less plausible then the idea that it might be quality. And I'm not going to change my opinion just because you tell me to. Maybe someday I'll see this show, but until that time I'll reserve the right to bet that it's crap. I can't see it now because they don't show it where I live. So maybe you should get used to me having an opinion you don't like.

so you think that people that HAVE actually watched the show don't know what we're talking

about? since you don't know about the actual references to the OT (because you haven't

bothered watching them), that's right tell us something we don't know, when you yourself

admit you don't even know what its about...

 

and then you claim 'someday' you 'might' watch the show? how convenient.

look it up on youtube, download the torrents, download it directly from newsgroups/rapidshare,

but don't complain that you can't find it, or it you can't get it... that's a pretty weak excuse,

maybe you don't want to watch it , and find out you were wrong..

 

And btw, if I ever suffer through episodes of this show and find it is indeed crap then you'll be hearing an awful big I told you so.

there you go presuming again, we'll if you're going to have low expectations, or make up

your mind ahead of time, what's the point? why not lie, and just say its horrible, and spare

yourself the trouble of actually watching it?

 

yeah, and if you're wrong about the show, and actually like parts of it (i almost fainted

when i read skyjedi, and adywan found some positive things about the series)..

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't admit, or even bother posting that you were wrong.........................

 

last time i checked , there was already a post about the 'clone wars' movie,

which is where all your posts should be, maybe you post your thoughts over

there, until you actually do watch the show..

 

later

-1

 

 

maybe if you actually HAD a valid opinion about the ACTUAL SHOW people would actually listen or read what you had to say (but since you haven't actually seen it, not liking something you haven't seen is kind of preemptive)

I think I've quite a bit to go on to give me an idea what this thing might be like. Obviously you guys disagree. But I think I'm entitled to my opinion on what's enough to go on to make a vague ballpark general estimate of something's probable quality.

right..... and there's nothing to look forward to in the live action show, books, games, comics, or anything else 'star wars' related... you can just keep re-watching the OOT over and over again..

Basically yeah. Which is fine by me. The OOT is great. I don't pay a lot of attention to the EU's books and comics, that stuff isn't real to me, though I've sampled some in the past (and I have a nostalgia soft spot for the old Marvel comics). But I was talking about screen fiction and I very much doubt we'll ever see any good new Star Wars screen fiction in this era. I'll check out the live action series when I get a chance, but I expect it'll probably piss me off.

so you think that people that HAVE actually watched the show don't know what we're talking about?

I think their idea of OT-ish is probably different from my idea of OT-ish and I think their idea of totally different from the movie is diffferent from my idea of totally different from the movie. And I'm betting there's a good chance they're giving it some slack for being a kids' animated show, which I wouldn't do.

since you don't know about the actual references to the OT (because you haven't bothered watching them),

I couldn't give damn about references to the OT. References to the OT wouldn't count for me as being OT-ish or quality. I don't want references to the OT, I want the spirit of the OT, and I think Lucas is a million miles from that nowadays and couldn't possibly make anything with that now. And I can see that some people might feel it's got something in common with the spirit of the OT, but I bet my standards for that are stricter and what counts as in common with the OT for them wouldn't count as in common with the OT for me.

that's right tell us something we don't know, when you yourself admit you don't even know what its about...

A lot of people write stuff about what it's about. I can read.

and then you claim 'someday' you 'might' watch the show? how convenient. look it up on youtube, download the torrents, download it directly from newsgroups/rapidshare, but don't complain that you can't find it, or it you can't get it... that's a pretty weak excuse,

No it's not a "pretty weak excuse". It's the facts. Nobody ever told me I could see it on youtube. If you've got a youtube link show me it. As for downloading, that's generally illegal and I don't do it.

maybe you don't want to watch it , and find out you were wrong..

You guys tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and shouldn't be talking about what I don't know about. Well you're doing that here. You're so far wrong what's going on in my head and you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Now that people have made such a fuss about this thing I'd be happy to see some of it to fill in the blanks in my knowledge. And it's not like I expect it to be actually good. I am very firmly confident that quality Star Wars screen fiction is an all-odds-against impossibility from Lucas now.

there you go presuming again, we'll if you're going to have low expectations, or make up your mind ahead of time, what's the point? why not lie, and just say its horrible, and spare yourself the trouble of actually watching it?

Actually if you have low expectations for something and it turns out better than your expectations then you're likely to think better of it than you would if you went in with higher expectations. Basic psychology. And I've made my estimate of the show's quality and I'll stick by that until I get better info, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a chance if I saw it. I couldn't get an accurate impression of it from seeing it if I didn't give it a chance while seeing it. And I believe in having accurate impressions. And maybe you would feel it's ok to lie about seeing something you hadn't seen, but I don't work that way. Just as I don't give "pretty weak excuses" for not seeing something when I have genuine reasons. 

yeah, and if you're wrong about the show, and actually like parts of it (i almost fainted when i read skyjedi, and adywan found some positive things about the series).. i'm pretty sure you wouldn't admit, or even bother posting that you were wrong.........................

Yet again you seem to assume I'm a pretty dishonest guy, from zero knowledge of me. You guys get all riled up about me judging a show from only seeing the pilot and reading about it and seeing photos and knowing the creator's other work, but I think it's a lot worse to prejudge somebody as dishonest based on zero knowledge of their honesty. If I like enough in it to be worth commenting on I might well feel like saying so. Assuming I didn't get the idea I was just going to get more shit over it. But I find it highly unlikely that I'd find much in it to like. 

last time i checked , there was already a post about the 'clone wars' movie, which is where all your posts should be, maybe you post your thoughts over there, until you actually do watch the show..

Precisely what business of yours is it to tell people where to post? Are you a mod? Funny, I hadn't heard that you were. The movie is part of the show, so discussion of the movie fits in here.

later

You know, it's really annoying the way you sign off "later". It just has a sort of "fuck you" tone to it.

Now if you really want me to watch it, link me to youtube's showings of it.