Tyrphanax

Anything else would be heretical.

Jesus Christ this better not become another threat I can't enter.

Video games have been running at 60 FPS for years!

CATCH UP!

I bet he knows what's up.

TheBoost said:

...one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter (go Red Dawn!)...

msycamore said:

BmB said:

But that scene in ESB is just a simplistic, if you kill Vader then you become Vader.

If that is what you think that little scene was about I suggest you rewatch it.

 

Yeah, this. It took me forever to figure it out growing up, but it finally clicked.

Well I think obviously he survived because Bast asked if he should have his shuttle ready and I think there was enough time for him to get to it in between that last closeup and the explosion.

I just assume Wars would be a present-day retelling of Star Wars in the vain of all the modern warfare video games of the day.

I think most people here will agree that Empire is a great film.

Well, at the time Anakin was becoming Vader, one of the Death Stars was already under construction, and if you take the EU into account, there was already a prototype completed at The Maw, so he would have had access to those right off the bat at very least.

Maybe Facebook was just being shitty?

I tried to save it! I TRIED!

This is a cool idea!

Is this out yet?

Father Skywalker said:

The bad guys are not bad just because they're bad. They're bad for a reason (s). 

The main problem/issue here is not black and white morality. It's this idea that villains are evil just because they're evil and have to  be destroyed. That is BS, and just plain ridiclous........

Even LOTR, a black and white morality storyline, has reasons why sauron is evil; not because "hey im gandalf lets go fight a bad guy, he's bad just because he's bad and we need somebody to defeat today for fun'!!!!!!

Sauron is bad because he is bad as well. There's not a lot of difference between Palpatine's Empire and Sauron's Mordor.

Palpatine's Empire and Sauron's Mordor are bad because they want to control and oppress all of the peaceful, freedom-loving people of their respective worlds and control their subjects through fear, manipulation, torture, violence, and death. They both abuse their otherworldly powers in order to meet these goals:

Sauron uses the power of The One Ring to control the other Rings of Power he had given to the rulers of the respective races of the world of Middle Earth and thus control the rulers and thus control the people.

Palpatine and Darth Vader abuse the Dark Side of the Force to keep not only their men in line, but also to control the galaxy. They use huge, terrifying weapons like Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, and the Death Stars to strike fear into the hearts of anyone who might dare to oppose them, and if need be, they use them to crush any opposition foolish enough to stand against them.

Both are very similar; in fact, it goes for most movies. The James Bond villains are bad because they want to take over the world, Bond is good because he stops them. Loki is bad because he wants to rule the world, The Avengers are good because they stop him. Scarecrow, The Joker, and Bane are bad because they want to do various bad things to Gotham, Batman is goo because he stops them. I could list a hundred more examples.

I'm sorry, but thems the breaks; this is the way it is in most fantasy universes.

Father Skywalker said:

What about the galactic sith empires that existed long before the death star???

"once more the sith will rule the galaxy"

"the opression of the sith will never return"

"at last we shall reveal ourselves to the jedi and have our revenge"

"Star wars episode 3-the Revenge of the sith"

What about them? They were also evil empires that were destroyed by the forces of good at one point or another. That doesn't make the atrocities of Palpatine's Empire justified in any way, because his Empire is evil, as I state above.

Father Skywalker said:

Speaking of copyright issues, why would you even post any of it here in the first place???

PLEASE NOTE: This is the last post on this topic that I will make in this thread as it has already been thrown irreparably off-topic. If you want, Father Skywalker, you may start another topic where people can answer your questions about the elements of the Star Wars galaxy that you don't understand. I will not reply further to any other off-topic posts in this thread, however.

Because I thought by quoting the book, you might be satisfied. I guess this was not the case.

Father Skywalker said:

By canon, I mean, part of the same storyline, more specifically, the "same canon".....

Yes, all Star Wars media is considered to be of one single, unifying storyline. Movies, books, games, comics, all of it.

Father Skywalker said:

Does the book explicity say "boom, they died"!!!!

No, because it's implied that they die. If you want to make the argument that everyone on both Death Stars survived because they weren't shown explicitly blowing up, then be my guest, I guess. It's not correct, but okay.

Here is the section from the book about the Death Star blowing up, immediately following the last quote I posted from the book:

Lando was homing in on the reactor core shaft. Else only Wedge was left, flying just ahead of him, and Gold Wing, just behind. Several TIE fighters still trailed.

These central twistings were barely two planes wide, and turned sharply every five or ten seconds at the speeds Lando was reaching. Another Imperial jet exploded against a wall; another shot down Gold Wing.

And then there were two.

Lando's tail-gunners kept the remaining TIE fighters jumping in the narrow space, until at last the main reactor shaft came into view. They'd never seen a reactor that awesome.

'It's too big, Gold Leader,' yelled Wedge. 'My proton torpedoes won't even dent that.'

'Go for the power regulator on the north tower,' Lando directed. 'I'll take the main reactor. We're carrying concussion missiles -they should penetrate. Once I let them go, we won't have much time to get out of here, though.'

'I'm already on my way out,' Wedge exclaimed.

He fired his torpedoes with a Corellian war-cry, hitting both sides of the north tower, and peeled off, accelerating.

The Falcon waited three dangerous seconds longer, then loosed its concussion missiles with a powerful roar. For another second the flash was too bright to see what had happened. And then the whole reactor began to go.

'Direct hit!' shouted Lando. 'Now comes the hard part.'

The shaft was already caving in on top of him, creating a tunnel effect. The Falcon maneuvered through the twisting outlet, through walls of flame, and through moving shafts, always just ahead of the continuing chain of explosions.

Wedge tore out of the superstructure at barely sublight speed, whipped around the near side of Endor, and coasted into deep space, slowing slowly in a gentle arc, to return to the safety of the moon.

A moment later, in a destabilized Imperial shuttle, Luke escaped the main docking bay, just as that section began to blow apart completely. His wobbling craft, too, headed for the green sanctuary in the near distance.

And finally, as if being spit out of the very flames of the conflagration, the Millennium Falcon shot toward Endor, only moments before the Death Star flared into brilliant oblivion, like a fulminant supernova.

Han was binding Leia's arm-wound in a fern-dell when the Death Star blew. It captured everyone's attention, wherever they happened to be - Ewoks, stormtrooper prisoners, Rebel troops - this final, turbulent, flash of self-destruction, incandescent in the evening sky. The Rebels cheered.

Father Skywalker said:

So, when was the rebel alliance officially formed?? Both wikipedia and wookipedia claim that the senators meeting (with padme, mon mothma, and jimmy smits), formed the rebellion, but others claim that the rebellion was formed years later on.

Switch: Jimmy Smitts.

The Alliance has been formed at various times in various EU sources over the years, but if you want to use the scene from the film, which I suppose is the "most canon" of the myriad scenes out there, then yes, that was the time.

Father Skywalker said:

What does a direct, large scale assault have to do with an opposing stay system?? Please define an opposing star system in this context?? The rebellion?? Are the imperials a bunch of paranoid stalinists?? Either way, what does that even mean??

An opposing star system would likely have a defense fleet or at least a planetary defense force which would likely attack the Death Star. An "opposing star system" would be a star system that didn't want to be in the Empire anymore, and the Empire would not want to lose whatever resources that planet was generating for them and thus would want to fight to keep it in the Empire. The same reason the Republic didn't want to let the Confederacy secede. That is the reason the Death Star was constructed, to keep the people in line.

Father Skywalker said:

BTW, how early was the idea for the death star thought out of?? Please use the Expanded Universe EU here. On the jedi council forums, another user told me that as early as episode 1, darth plageius and darth sidious had the idea of the death star planned out yet.......

The Death Star has also been conceived of by various people at various times in the EU. Here is the Wookieepedia article about its history.

Father Skywalker said:

What does controlling people through fear to replace the Senate even mean??? The bureaucry had something to do with the death star;how did that control the imperial citizens?? Weren't most of them happy though?? I had a theory that the imperial senate was used to control people.

The senate was a bureaucracy, and as such it was slow and ineffective, and there was always the chance that someone could rise to power through it, much like Palpatine himself had even if it was just a puppet show.

By eliminating the senate and ruling the galaxy with a much more controllable element, fear, Palpatine could get things done mych more expediently as well as crush any major Rebellion against him. Remember, at the time of the original Star Wars, the Rebel Alliance was a very small rag-tag group of guerrillas with no major planetary support, just individual support. The Death Star was there to keep a major insurrection like the Confederacy from happening by making planetary leaders fearful that their worlds could be entirely destroyed if they disagreed with the Empire.

Stand by.

Father Skywalker said:

Did you even read my long post that had rebuttals to it, about the great jedi purge, owen and beru lars, and alderaan's destruction????

Yes, I have been reading your posts and replying to what I see fit.

Father Skywalker said:

By that logic, you can say that the world operates in a black and white morality and that the justice system is evil and that criminals are good. You see???

It is different because unlike real life, Star Wars is a fantasy world where evil is always evil and good is always good. That's the whole point of a fantasy world like that; there is no grey area because there is only black and white. Anything the Rebels do to fight the Empire is good because the Empire is bad; while, conversely, anything the Empire does to fight the Rebels is bad because the Rebels are good.

It's very, very simple "black-versus-white" fantasy morality that has been used in countless books, movies, video games, and basically all other forms of fictional media since time immemorial.

Good analysis, Neverar.

Father Skywalker said:

Umm, is the EU canon?? By canon, I mean, not just canon, but part of the same storyline as the movies, and do they basically add to the movies storyline?? Besides, why did screams erupt in the next room?? And then it blew up?? You just stopped quoting the book after that, and added your own stuff to that....

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Don't use the books/the EU expanded universe to explain what happened in the movies. Both are canon, but are different storylines and timelines and universes, as stated in the above quote.........

Umm, all canon debates aside, i thought that most of the imperials evacuated it. So, a few of them stayed on it, kinda like the handful of fools that stay in their town after the hurricance, while everybody else evacuates???

 

It is generally accepted that unless Lucas explicitly overwrites what a book claims happened with something of his own design, then it is the "true canon". So, yes, the books are canon until Lucas says otherwise. If you want to go purely off the movie, then unless a character is explicitly shown to survive something, general consensus is that they are dead, speculating that they might have survived is getting into fan-fiction territory, and by that logic, everyone on the Death Star could have evacuated, Admiral Piett could have dived into an escape pod and gotten off the Executor before it blew up, the Emperor could have fallen down the shaft and landed in his hidden personal shuttle and escaped, and Boba Fett could have used his jetpack to escape the sarlacc after everyone left.

Screams were erupting in the next room because the station was falling apart already due to damage incurred from the attack, as well as the Executor crashing into it. I'm sure some Imperials did evacuate, but certainly not all of them. Just like when a ship in the navy gets destroyed in combat, not everyone can get out before it sinks.

I stopped quoting because it's not a good idea to reproduce large amounts of a legally-protected book on a public forum, and because the next part tells about Lando and Wedge escaping the superstructure and the Death Star blowing up.

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

twister111 said:

 

Father Skywalker said:

they would've at least had plans and mention of it during episode 6. Darth Vader never told luke skywalker that "join me and together we can destroy the planets with the death star as father and son"".

The hell are you on about!?!? The Death Star from the beginning was a weapon of fear to keep the systems in line so they could just dissolve the senate. It wasn't created to destroy a list of planets. They only needed to demonstrate it's destructive power once to test it then the second time to destroy the rebel base. After that they would have all the fear they needed to keep their power and they would set out to rule the planets from that fear.

 

They actually used it twice, once on Despayre, the second time on Alderaan, if you count the EU (the expanded universe) as being canon.... Let's not get into canon debates now, however. My point is, what the hell/heck does dissolving the senate and beauracy have anything to do with using the death star???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE

I watched that video and I'm still very confused. Was the death star built as a tool against the rebels?? If the rebel alliance had never existed, would the death star still have been built and used on alderaan and despayre???

Use the death star to rule the galaxy?? What?? I don't get it.... Fear was used to keep the rebels in line, not the people.....No rebels, no death stars, rebels are not good guys, they provoked the war and the destruction of planets.

"No star system will dare oppose the emperor now"

 

When you have an Evil Empire, there will always be a dissenting group of Rebels opposing it. Especially in a fantasy world.

Ultimately it makes very little sense to debate whether the Death Star would exist if there were no Rebels, because if there were no Rebels there would be no movie because the whole premise of Star Wars is the oppressed people rising up and overthrowing their corrupt and evil government and if that didn't exist, neither would Star Wars.

Umm, star wars is a space opera/science fiction/sci fi story, NOT a fantasy story.......

Second of all, yes, with evil people, you'll have people opposing them........

As for the last paragraph, umm, you said, without the rebels, there would be no star wars and therefore you wouldn't be asking that question....... Yes, that's true, but you're just cut me off at whatever i'm saying, meaning you don't even give any time to consider my question, you just blow it off and assume that it's is wrong and not even a question in the first place. 

But please, answer what I said about that, it's a very important and relevant question. I don't ask what if scenarios, and hypotheticals usually, they're stupid, but not when it pertains to the storyline.......

I considered your question, it just seems a bit pointless to me when the whole premise of the film is that there is a just Rebellion against an evil Empire.

I will address it anyway:

The Death Star, as Adywan said, was constructed in order to control the people of the galaxy through fear of its use after the the senate was dissolved.

Again, as Adywan quoted Tarkin: "Fear will keep the local systems in line.... Fear of this battlestation"

It was not built to fight a small band of Rebels, as they were not seen as a threat by anyone but Admiral Tagge, which is why the Rebels were able to evade the Death Star's defenses and destroy it.

As General Dodonna said, the Death Star's defenses were designed around a direct, large-scale assault, which is much more in line with what an opposing star system might send against it.

Remember, at the end of Revenge of the Sith when Vader, Palpatine, and Tarkin are watching it being built? That was back when the Rebel Alliance was just a gleam in Mon Mothma's and Bail Organa's eyes.

So, yes, the Death Star would have been built and used against at least two planets as the purpose of the station was to keep entire planets from rising up against the Empire through the fear of a giant armoured space station that could show up in your system at any time and blow your entire planet up.

I was not being serious when I was talking about the Rebels being terrorists, it's a common non-serious viewpoint in order to play the devil's advocate, and I regret ever giving you that idea.

It is incredibly obvious by watching the films, which are very black and white in their morality, that the Rebellion is good and the Empire is evil.

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

adywan said:

Father Skywalker said:

Yes, but how do you know that moff tiaan jerjerrod was on it when it blew up?? Remember that the guys were evacuating on it at the ending; nothing ever confirmed whether or not grand moff tiaan jerjjerod escaped!!!!

Check the deleted scenes on the blu-ray. They were about to blow up the moon of Endor when the Death Star was destroyed, so no, he didn't escape

Wookieepedia.

Wookipedia banned me. They're mean and stupid.....

Besides, wookipedia is not george lucas's offical canon website, it's is a star wars website made by fanboys and fangirls......

I read that he died during/in the explosion, it just wasn't confirmed by an official source yet. What about the evacuation, when luke skywalker was dragging his father's body down to the shuttle????

Wookieepedia, while it has the same drawbacks of any wiki site, is a collection of most of the sources of Star Wars cannon available (books, movies, games, et cetera).

Moff Jerjerrod's death as he waited to pull the trigger to destroy the forest moon of Endor is documented in the novelization of Return of the Jedi. You can read it yourself if you don't believe me!

Did the novelization explicity state "he died", or "he did not escape"??? No. Please send me a quote. Also, remember the guys that were evacuating when luke dragged anakin's body down to his shuttle?? Luke just stayed there for a moments and talked to his father, the other imperial guys didn't wait, they got themselves off of the second death star and escaped pretty fast. If luke could barely escape, then those guys could most certainly escape too, they were quicker and they got ahead of him when escaping, they didn't stop and pause to talk to a dying man.........

By that logic, jerjerrod could have escaped too, and he probably did. What, did two or three guys stay on there or something like that???

Jerjerrod was obsessed with carrying out Palpatine's final order (destroy the forest moon) and his hatred of the Rebels. So much that he died waiting for the Death Star to rotate around to face the moon while holding the firing switch.

Here are the quotes:

The Emperor hissed. 'Your fleet is lost - and your friends on the Endor Moon will not survive...' He pushed a comlink button on the arm of his throne and spoke into it with relish. 'Commander Jerjerrod, should the Rebels manage to blow up the shield generator, you will turn this battle station onto the Endor Moon and destroy it.'

'Yes, Your Highness,' came the voice over the receiver, 'but we have several battalions stationed on-'

'You will destroy it!' the Emperor's whisper was more final than any scream.

'Yes, Your Highness.'

Commander Jerjerrod sat, brooding, in the control room of the Death Star, watching all about him crumble. Half of his crew were dead, wounded, or run off-where they hoped to find sanctuary was unclear, if not insane. The rest wandered ineffectually, or railed at the enemy ships, or fired all their guns at all sectors, or shouted orders, or focused desperately on a single task, as if that would save them. Or, like Jerjerrod, simply brooded.

He couldn't fathom what he'd done wrong. He'd been patient, he'd been loyal, he'd been clever, he'd been hard. He was the commander of the greatest battle station ever built. Or, at least, almost built. He hated this Rebel Alliance, now, with a child's hate, untempered. He'd loved it once - it had been the small boy he could bully, the enraged baby animal he could torture. But the boy had grown up now; it knew how to fight back effectively. It had broken its bonds.

Jerjerrod hated it now.

Yet there seemed to be little he could do at this point. Except, of course, destroy Endor - he could do that. It was a small act, a token really - to incinerate something green and living, gratuitously, meanly, toward no end but that of wanton destruction. A small act, but deliciously satisfying.

An aide ran up to him. 'The Rebel fleet is closing, sir.'

'Concentrate all fire in that sector,' he answered distractedly. A console on the far wall burst into flame.

'The fighters in the superstructure are eluding our defense system, Commander. Shouldn't we-'Flood sectors 304 and 138. That should slow them up.' He arched his eyebrows at the aide.

This made little sense to the aide, who had cause to wonder at the commander's grasp of the situation. 'But sir ...'

'What is the rotation factor to firing range on the Endor Moon?'

The aide checked the compuscreen. 'Point oh two to moon target, sir. Commander, the fleet-'Accelerate rotation until moon is in range, and then fire on my mark.'

'Yes, sir.' The aide pulled a bank of switches. 'Rotation accelerating, sir. Point oh one to moon target, sir. Sixty seconds to firing range. Sir, good-bye, sir.' The aide saluted, put the firing switch in Jerjerrod's hand as another explosion shook the control room, and ran out the door.

Jerjerrod smiled calmly at the view-screen. Endor was starting to come out of the Death Star's eclipse. He fondled the detonation switch in his hand. Point oh oh five to moon target. Screams erupted in the next room.

Thirty seconds to firing.

And then it blew up. If you think after reading that that he either cared/wanted to escape or if he could somehow get off the station in the scant few seconds before the reactor blew (by the time the thirty-second count had begun, Lando and Wedge were already firing at the reactor), then I don't know what else to say.

Father Skywalker said:

twister111 said:

 

Father Skywalker said:

they would've at least had plans and mention of it during episode 6. Darth Vader never told luke skywalker that "join me and together we can destroy the planets with the death star as father and son"".

The hell are you on about!?!? The Death Star from the beginning was a weapon of fear to keep the systems in line so they could just dissolve the senate. It wasn't created to destroy a list of planets. They only needed to demonstrate it's destructive power once to test it then the second time to destroy the rebel base. After that they would have all the fear they needed to keep their power and they would set out to rule the planets from that fear.

 

They actually used it twice, once on Despayre, the second time on Alderaan, if you count the EU (the expanded universe) as being canon.... Let's not get into canon debates now, however. My point is, what the hell/heck does dissolving the senate and beauracy have anything to do with using the death star???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE

I watched that video and I'm still very confused. Was the death star built as a tool against the rebels?? If the rebel alliance had never existed, would the death star still have been built and used on alderaan and despayre???

Use the death star to rule the galaxy?? What?? I don't get it.... Fear was used to keep the rebels in line, not the people.....No rebels, no death stars, rebels are not good guys, they provoked the war and the destruction of planets.

"No star system will dare oppose the emperor now"

 

When you have an Evil Empire, there will always be a dissenting group of Rebels opposing it. Especially in a fantasy world.

Ultimately it makes very little sense to debate whether the Death Star would exist if there were no Rebels, because if there were no Rebels there would be no movie because the whole premise of Star Wars is the oppressed people rising up and overthrowing their corrupt and evil government and if that didn't exist, neither would Star Wars.

Father Skywalker said:

Tyrphanax said:

adywan said:

Father Skywalker said:

Yes, but how do you know that moff tiaan jerjerrod was on it when it blew up?? Remember that the guys were evacuating on it at the ending; nothing ever confirmed whether or not grand moff tiaan jerjjerod escaped!!!!

Check the deleted scenes on the blu-ray. They were about to blow up the moon of Endor when the Death Star was destroyed, so no, he didn't escape

Wookieepedia.

Wookipedia banned me. They're mean and stupid.....

Besides, wookipedia is not george lucas's offical canon website, it's is a star wars website made by fanboys and fangirls......

I read that he died during/in the explosion, it just wasn't confirmed by an official source yet. What about the evacuation, when luke skywalker was dragging his father's body down to the shuttle????

Wookieepedia, while it has the same drawbacks of any wiki site, is a collection of most of the sources of Star Wars cannon available (books, movies, games, et cetera).

Moff Jerjerrod's death as he waited to pull the trigger to destroy the forest moon of Endor is documented in the novelization of Return of the Jedi. You can read it yourself if you don't believe me!